BFTG Newcastle (H)

[handbags_harris]

I do think Stam wants his defenders to be defenders first and foremost rather than attackers - creativity etc is meant to come from the midfield

this quote from his post-match reaction was also interesting:

"We could have done a little bit better and we only conceded chances because we lost the ball. In how we play we are confident in what we do.
"We just need to keep on going.

He's said stuff like this before - basically he'd rather we kept the ball until there's a very clear attacking opportunity, rather than gamble, potentially lose possession, and get penalised on the counter-attack.

So - the players who are safety-first - especially the defenders - are following orders. I bet he was pretty happy with Chris Gunter's performance, for instance, for the exact reasons that many here find him so frustrating! Unless Gunts is 99% sure a forward pass is going to work, he's not going to try it. Obita is a frustrated winger, rather than a defender, and is much more inclined to gamble.

I'm happy enough with the safety-first approach against good counter-attacking teams like Newcastle - but I'd rather a bit more attacking oomph against other teams.

Based on results though, Stam's approach is working.

Not sure this is wholly accurate, because Stam encourages risk taking in the right areas of the pitch. My take on proceedings is that the speed with which we play the ball across the pitch is, at times, ponderous at best, allowing the opposition time to draw themselves across and pressurise the ball, while also ensuring players are correctly positioned to cut off any space, angles and gaps to play into. If that occurs, penetrating passing is distinctly limited. With more zip and verve to our possession game, and the right players making the right movement and runs at the right time, we'd be a far more effective and pleasing on the eye outfit. Currently we don't quite have the right personnel in key areas of the pitch to be as potent as we'd like, which makes us appear a bit laborious, and the pitch obviously affects us now more than it has done in the past.

[BR2]

I do think Stam wants his defenders to be defenders first and foremost rather than attackers - creativity etc is meant to come from the midfield

this quote from his post-match reaction was also interesting:

"We could have done a little bit better and we only conceded chances because we lost the ball. In how we play we are confident in what we do.
"We just need to keep on going.

He's said stuff like this before - basically he'd rather we kept the ball until there's a very clear attacking opportunity, rather than gamble, potentially lose possession, and get penalised on the counter-attack.

So - the players who are safety-first - especially the defenders - are following orders. I bet he was pretty happy with Chris Gunter's performance, for instance, for the exact reasons that many here find him so frustrating! Unless Gunts is 99% sure a forward pass is going to work, he's not going to try it. Obita is a frustrated winger, rather than a defender, and is much more inclined to gamble.

I'm happy enough with the safety-first approach against good counter-attacking teams like Newcastle - but I'd rather a bit more attacking oomph against other teams.

Based on results though, Stam's approach is working.

Not sure this is wholly accurate, because Stam encourages risk taking in the right areas of the pitch. My take on proceedings is that the speed with which we play the ball across the pitch is, at times, ponderous at best, allowing the opposition time to draw themselves across and pressurise the ball, while also ensuring players are correctly positioned to cut off any space, angles and gaps to play into. If that occurs, penetrating passing is distinctly limited. With more zip and verve to our possession game, and the right players making the right movement and runs at the right time, we'd be a far more effective and pleasing on the eye outfit. Currently we don't quite have the right personnel in key areas of the pitch to be as potent as we'd like, which makes us appear a bit laborious, and the pitch obviously affects us now more than it has done in the past.

I think ,like you, it is the "zip and verve" that isn't there.
Although he hasn't done much so far you can see in Mutch that he is looking to pass and move whereas Danny Williams for example seems always to start from a standing position.
Swift and Kelly also look to move things on but with a slow central striker they can't play through balls into areas that can really damage the opposition.

As for Murinho's point that by passing across the back the defenders are waiting for the right opportunity to play the ball forward I think midfielders should be picking the ball off them much more than they do as, by nature of their position, midfielders are passers of the ball whereas most defenders aren't.
The end result too often is that after a spell of square passing the defender just hits the ball long, as is the case also with Ali.

As HH says, it is probably the case that we just don't have the right players and at the end of the season I suspect that there will be another turnaround of playing staff so that hopefully next season we can make a real challenge whereas this season we are some way behind the top two both in terms of points and ability.

[muirinho]

I do think Stam wants his defenders to be defenders first and foremost rather than attackers - creativity etc is meant to come from the midfield

this quote from his post-match reaction was also interesting:

"We could have done a little bit better and we only conceded chances because we lost the ball. In how we play we are confident in what we do.
"We just need to keep on going.

He's said stuff like this before - basically he'd rather we kept the ball until there's a very clear attacking opportunity, rather than gamble, potentially lose possession, and get penalised on the counter-attack.

So - the players who are safety-first - especially the defenders - are following orders. I bet he was pretty happy with Chris Gunter's performance, for instance, for the exact reasons that many here find him so frustrating! Unless Gunts is 99% sure a forward pass is going to work, he's not going to try it. Obita is a frustrated winger, rather than a defender, and is much more inclined to gamble.

I'm happy enough with the safety-first approach against good counter-attacking teams like Newcastle - but I'd rather a bit more attacking oomph against other teams.

Based on results though, Stam's approach is working.

Not sure this is wholly accurate, because Stam encourages risk taking in the right areas of the pitch. My take on proceedings is that the speed with which we play the ball across the pitch is, at times, ponderous at best, allowing the opposition time to draw themselves across and pressurise the ball, while also ensuring players are correctly positioned to cut off any space, angles and gaps to play into. If that occurs, penetrating passing is distinctly limited. With more zip and verve to our possession game, and the right players making the right movement and runs at the right time, we'd be a far more effective and pleasing on the eye outfit. Currently we don't quite have the right personnel in key areas of the pitch to be as potent as we'd like, which makes us appear a bit laborious, and the pitch obviously affects us now more than it has done in the past.

I think ,like you, it is the "zip and verve" that isn't there.
Although he hasn't done much so far you can see in Mutch that he is looking to pass and move whereas Danny Williams for example seems always to start from a standing position.
Swift and Kelly also look to move things on but with a slow central striker they can't play through balls into areas that can really damage the opposition.

As for Murinho's point that by passing across the back the defenders are waiting for the right opportunity to play the ball forward I think midfielders should be picking the ball off them much more than they do as, by nature of their position, midfielders are passers of the ball whereas most defenders aren't.
The end result too often is that after a spell of square passing the defender just hits the ball long, as is the case also with Ali.

As HH says, it is probably the case that we just don't have the right players and at the end of the season I suspect that there will be another turnaround of playing staff so that hopefully next season we can make a real challenge whereas this season we are some way behind the top two both in terms of points and ability.

Definitely agree about the midfielders - I think the "pissing it about at the back" frustration is being taken out on the defenders and Al Habsi way too much - the midfielders should be doing a lot more in terms of looking for it, and passing it on. Kelly was having a rotten game at Newcastle, but in general, he's better at that than, say, Williams, who either passes it straight back again, runs around in circles with it for a while, or loses it. I'd hope Mutch is better at (a) making himself available to be passed to, and (b) passing it onwards, rather than backwards once he gets it - than our current midfield options

[mambo3]

Not sure this is wholly accurate, because Stam encourages risk taking in the right areas of the pitch. My take on proceedings is that the speed with which we play the ball across the pitch is, at times, ponderous at best, allowing the opposition time to draw themselves across and pressurise the ball, while also ensuring players are correctly positioned to cut off any space, angles and gaps to play into. If that occurs, penetrating passing is distinctly limited. With more zip and verve to our possession game, and the right players making the right movement and runs at the right time, we'd be a far more effective and pleasing on the eye outfit. Currently we don't quite have the right personnel in key areas of the pitch to be as potent as we'd like, which makes us appear a bit laborious, and the pitch obviously affects us now more than it has done in the past.

I think ,like you, it is the "zip and verve" that isn't there.
Although he hasn't done much so far you can see in Mutch that he is looking to pass and move whereas Danny Williams for example seems always to start from a standing position.
Swift and Kelly also look to move things on but with a slow central striker they can't play through balls into areas that can really damage the opposition.

As for Murinho's point that by passing across the back the defenders are waiting for the right opportunity to play the ball forward I think midfielders should be picking the ball off them much more than they do as, by nature of their position, midfielders are passers of the ball whereas most defenders aren't.
The end result too often is that after a spell of square passing the defender just hits the ball long, as is the case also with Ali.

As HH says, it is probably the case that we just don't have the right players and at the end of the season I suspect that there will be another turnaround of playing staff so that hopefully next season we can make a real challenge whereas this season we are some way behind the top two both in terms of points and ability.

Definitely agree about the midfielders - I think the "pissing it about at the back" frustration is being taken out on the defenders and Al Habsi way too much - the midfielders should be doing a lot more in terms of looking for it, and passing it on. Kelly was having a rotten game at Newcastle, but in general, he's better at that than, say, Williams, who either passes it straight back again, runs around in circles with it for a while, or loses it. I'd hope Mutch is better at (a) making himself available to be passed to, and (b) passing it onwards, rather than backwards once he gets it - than our current midfield options

I think the defenders are told to play it round the back not sure the midfielders are to blame. If one of our defenders could move the ball forward at pace then the opposing teams midfielders would have to react and thus giving our midfielders space to receive the ball. Grabban doesn't play as an out and out striker tells me that Reading don't play with a striker which in effect strengthens the midfield so there is more than enough midfielders to receive if you include yann as well

[Ian Royal]

Not sure this is wholly accurate, because Stam encourages risk taking in the right areas of the pitch. My take on proceedings is that the speed with which we play the ball across the pitch is, at times, ponderous at best, allowing the opposition time to draw themselves across and pressurise the ball, while also ensuring players are correctly positioned to cut off any space, angles and gaps to play into. If that occurs, penetrating passing is distinctly limited. With more zip and verve to our possession game, and the right players making the right movement and runs at the right time, we'd be a far more effective and pleasing on the eye outfit. Currently we don't quite have the right personnel in key areas of the pitch to be as potent as we'd like, which makes us appear a bit laborious, and the pitch obviously affects us now more than it has done in the past.

I think ,like you, it is the "zip and verve" that isn't there.
Although he hasn't done much so far you can see in Mutch that he is looking to pass and move whereas Danny Williams for example seems always to start from a standing position.
Swift and Kelly also look to move things on but with a slow central striker they can't play through balls into areas that can really damage the opposition.

As for Murinho's point that by passing across the back the defenders are waiting for the right opportunity to play the ball forward I think midfielders should be picking the ball off them much more than they do as, by nature of their position, midfielders are passers of the ball whereas most defenders aren't.
The end result too often is that after a spell of square passing the defender just hits the ball long, as is the case also with Ali.

As HH says, it is probably the case that we just don't have the right players and at the end of the season I suspect that there will be another turnaround of playing staff so that hopefully next season we can make a real challenge whereas this season we are some way behind the top two both in terms of points and ability.

Definitely agree about the midfielders - I think the "pissing it about at the back" frustration is being taken out on the defenders and Al Habsi way too much - the midfielders should be doing a lot more in terms of looking for it, and passing it on. Kelly was having a rotten game at Newcastle, but in general, he's better at that than, say, Williams, who either passes it straight back again, runs around in circles with it for a while, or loses it. I'd hope Mutch is better at (a) making himself available to be passed to, and (b) passing it onwards, rather than backwards once he gets it - than our current midfield options

Absolutely agree with this. There becomes a big disconnect between our forward and defensive element. It was typified for me against Brighton (having seen the whole game I spose), when we seemed to be playing like this:

.................................Al-Habsi

..McShane...................Evans........................Moore
...................................Williams


Gunter......................................................Mutch......Blackett
.......McCleary..........Kermorgant...............Beerens

How can we pass through the thirds when there is only one short option offering to the defenders and almost half our team is high and wide. The options there are:
Long and hopeful
Into Williams who's marked tightly
Last man takes someone on
Pass it sideways ineffectually.

That's not the ethos being wrong, it's our implementation of it.

[Muskrat]

How can we pass through the thirds..

Please don't say this, it brings back some awful memories...

[RoyalBlue]

I've never understood the criticism of, bordering on hatred towards, Gunter. I thought he had a good game on Tuesday. In addition to defending well, he looked to get forward as often as possible. There were a good number of occasions when he got forward and was in space on the right, calling for the ball. On other occasions he broke right into the area and was almost picked out by passes from his teammates.

I also don't get the Grabham can't trap a bag of cement and similar criticisms either. To me he does fine in that regard and shows very good close ball control. Most, if not all, of the occasions when he lost control of the ball on Tuesday were clearly down to bobbles from the appalling pitch. I'm pretty sure that given a decent chance to play as a proper lone striker, or up front in partnership with Kermorgant, he will come good and start scoring goals.

Last season I was critical of Kermorgant but he is rapidly becoming one of my favourite players. He has great technical ability, is superb in the air, works like a Trojan and displays tremendous commitment to the team. My only concern is that, as a lone striker, he spends far too much time working the channels and then isn't in the centre when he is the very player we want to be getting onto the end of crosses into the box.

I think Mutch is one of those players who keeps things simple and is extremely effective without being showy. He then gets criticism because people fail to spot the role(s) that he is actually performing to great effect.

[SCIAG]

I've never understood the criticism of, bordering on hatred towards, Gunter. I thought he had a good game on Tuesday. In addition to defending well, he looked to get forward as often as possible. There were a good number of occasions when he got forward and was in space on the right, calling for the ball. On other occasions he broke right into the area and was almost picked out by passes from his teammates.

Agreed. Perfectly solid right back. Not a match winner, but that's not his job. Of similar quality to Murty, Rosenior, Griffin, and Cummings - perfectly fine and rarely capable of making me feel any strong emotion at all, except through personality.

I also don't get the Grabham can't trap a bag of cement and similar criticisms either. To me he does fine in that regard and shows very good close ball control. Most, if not all, of the occasions when he lost control of the ball on Tuesday were clearly down to bobbles from the appalling pitch. I'm pretty sure that given a decent chance to play as a proper lone striker, or up front in partnership with Kermorgant, he will come good and start scoring goals.

I agree that his touch seems fine. His decision making and finishing both seem a little suspect. He doesn't seem creative enough to play out wide, and he's not sharp enough in front of goal to displace Kermie. I'm just not sure what his role should be. Reminds me a bit of Nick Blackman. Hopefully we get eight good games out of him too...

Last season I was critical of Kermorgant but he is rapidly becoming one of my favourite players. He has great technical ability, is superb in the air, works like a Trojan and displays tremendous commitment to the team. My only concern is that, as a lone striker, he spends far too much time working the channels and then isn't in the centre when he is the very player we want to be getting onto the end of crosses into the box.

I think they've made tactical adjustments to try and change that. The wingers are pushing much higher lately. My concern is that his chances seem to be "on the turn" snatched shots rather than clean volleys or running onto cut-backs or (best of all) headers. Probably a product of our style of play.

I think Mutch is one of those players who keeps things simple and is extremely effective without being showy. He then gets criticism because people fail to spot the role(s) that he is actually performing to great effect.

On the basis of Newcastle, I agree. I do find the "people just don't notice him" argument to be a little bit of a way to deflect criticism of a dodgy midfielder because it's hard to argue with, but I think it might be true in this case.

[genome]

Seriously, what is it with people calling him Grabham?

[tidus_mi2]

Seriously, what is it with people calling him Grabham?

I dunno Geegnome, I just don't know.

[BR2]

I've never understood the criticism of, bordering on hatred towards, Gunter. I thought he had a good game on Tuesday. In addition to defending well, he looked to get forward as often as possible. There were a good number of occasions when he got forward and was in space on the right, calling for the ball. On other occasions he broke right into the area and was almost picked out by passes from his teammates.

I also don't get the Grabham can't trap a bag of cement and similar criticisms either. To me he does fine in that regard and shows very good close ball control. Most, if not all, of the occasions when he lost control of the ball on Tuesday were clearly down to bobbles from the appalling pitch. I'm pretty sure that given a decent chance to play as a proper lone striker, or up front in partnership with Kermorgant, he will come good and start scoring goals.

Last season I was critical of Kermorgant but he is rapidly becoming one of my favourite players. He has great technical ability, is superb in the air, works like a Trojan and displays tremendous commitment to the team. My only concern is that, as a lone striker, he spends far too much time working the channels and then isn't in the centre when he is the very player we want to be getting onto the end of crosses into the box.

I think Mutch is one of those players who keeps things simple and is extremely effective without being showy. He then gets criticism because people fail to spot the role(s) that he is actually performing to great effect.

On the question of Gunter, it looks as though somebody has told him that he has to tackle and in fact in the Wolves game and on Tuesday he did tackle quite forcefully (for him) rather than his usual gentle push in the other player's back.
IMHO he still has a long way to go as a defender, particularly positionally and not just backing off when a challenge is vital.

In our system he has acres of space but players seem not to want to pass to him-I'm not sure why that is, other than that the passer is likely just to get the ball played back to him.
He could be a really good attacking full-back but his choice of options is often poor, especially with crosses.

As I see it, he is neither a strong defender nor a good attacker whereas most full-backs are one or the other.
It also shows that you don't get much for £2 million ,or whatever the amount was, these days and in my view Murty was considerably better and Murty a much stronger defender.
He strikes me as the type of player who drives coaches mad-he has ability and pace but is only ever a 6/10 player at best.

[Mr Optimist]

Expect more pea hearted challenges at the weekend as Gunter will not want to get injured before the Ireland v Wales games in a week or so.

[RoyalBlue]

Seriously, what is it with people calling him Grabham?

I dunno Geegnome, I just don't know.

Guilty. I sloppily copied someone else's mistake!

I shall avoid the trap and refer to him as Louis in future.

[taipairoyal]

That was an enjoyable 0-0 despite the lack of clear chances either way.

2nd half atmosphere was pretty good, fair play to the day trippers swelling numbers over the 23,000 mark.

Toe to toe with them, a draw was fair, would have bitten your arm off for a draw at the start and am glad we got it.

McCleary is clearly injured and shouldn't be playing.

I'm a Gunter fan but his complete inability to move the ball forward was getting annoying.

McShane MOTM again.

Dim and Mick were singing the praises of Berg... how did he get on?

Did Newcastle really sing about taking the record, or did Dim & Mick mistake Reading's song for coming from the Toon?

How close were we at the end to nicking it?

Just make the effort to attend, or are you still banned?.

[taipairoyal]

I've never understood the criticism of, bordering on hatred towards, Gunter. I thought he had a good game on Tuesday. In addition to defending well, he looked to get forward as often as possible. There were a good number of occasions when he got forward and was in space on the right, calling for the ball. On other occasions he broke right into the area and was almost picked out by passes from his teammates.

I also don't get the Grabham can't trap a bag of cement and similar criticisms either. To me he does fine in that regard and shows very good close ball control. Most, if not all, of the occasions when he lost control of the ball on Tuesday were clearly down to bobbles from the appalling pitch. I'm pretty sure that given a decent chance to play as a proper lone striker, or up front in partnership with Kermorgant, he will come good and start scoring goals.

Last season I was critical of Kermorgant but he is rapidly becoming one of my favourite players. He has great technical ability, is superb in the air, works like a Trojan and displays tremendous commitment to the team. My only concern is that, as a lone striker, he spends far too much time working the channels and then isn't in the centre when he is the very player we want to be getting onto the end of crosses into the box.

I think Mutch is one of those players who keeps things simple and is extremely effective without being showy. He then gets criticism because people fail to spot the role(s) that he is actually performing to great effect.

+1 good call.

[Royal Ginger]

That was an enjoyable 0-0 despite the lack of clear chances either way.

2nd half atmosphere was pretty good, fair play to the day trippers swelling numbers over the 23,000 mark.

Toe to toe with them, a draw was fair, would have bitten your arm off for a draw at the start and am glad we got it.

McCleary is clearly injured and shouldn't be playing.

I'm a Gunter fan but his complete inability to move the ball forward was getting annoying.

McShane MOTM again.

Dim and Mick were singing the praises of Berg... how did he get on?

Did Newcastle really sing about taking the record, or did Dim & Mick mistake Reading's song for coming from the Toon?

How close were we at the end to nicking it?

Just make the effort to attend, or are you still banned?.

What has led you to believe he was banned?

[taipairoyal]

Dim and Mick were singing the praises of Berg... how did he get on?

Did Newcastle really sing about taking the record, or did Dim & Mick mistake Reading's song for coming from the Toon?

How close were we at the end to nicking it?

Just make the effort to attend, or are you still banned?.

What has led you to believe he was banned?

The Pudding incident = https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... ning-order

IMO should have been a life ban.

[Royal Ginger]

That's not him.

[Ian Royal]

That's not him.

I can't work out if he's genuinely that stupid and a bit senile, or stupid and thinking he's funny.