Summer Ins and Outs

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Simon's Church
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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by Simon's Church » 26 Jun 2017 09:20

Class how we apparently want to have 60% of the squad from the academy but sign plodders like popa, gravenberch and weiser ahead of keeping these guys in the squad :lol:

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by muirinho » 26 Jun 2017 09:29

Royal Rother wrote:it seems that every club in the country is developing young players for clubs lower down the structure.

Ours get cast off to League 1 and 2, and we get cast offs from the Premier League.

Then the PL itself gets them in from outside the U.K.

All seems a bit weird really.


Not really when you think about it. Even the absolute tip-top academies probably have a 1 in 50 that is top PL/Champions League team quality, maybe a few that are mid-table and below PL quality, some that are Championship level, and the rest are going to be spread out among the lower leagues. If you are good enough, you will come through. John Swift, say, is a very good player for us, but he is not a player that you can see playing for Manchester City any time soon. Because there are effectively purges every year in academies, the bigger clubs start whittling down those players, and they move to smaller academies. Or they move on within a year of signing a professional contract.

You'll find it across Europe also - not every Juventus youth player will get to play for Juve as they won't be good enough. So there are players finding their level across all of the European leagues,

What you don't get a huge pile of is English players who don't make it in PL, heading out to the rest of Europe in search of first team football, in the way that European players come here. But I think that's a cultural and tradition thing.

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maffff
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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by maffff » 26 Jun 2017 09:51

Simon's Church wrote:Class how we apparently want to have 60% of the squad from the academy but sign plodders like popa, gravenberch and weiser ahead of keeping these guys in the squad :lol:


Here's hoping the next batch
Southwood, Howe, McIntyre, Andresson, Rinomhota, Barrett, Frost, Smith, Novakovich Loader, etc can kick on.

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by mambo3 » 26 Jun 2017 11:34

muirinho wrote:
Royal Rother wrote:it seems that every club in the country is developing young players for clubs lower down the structure.

Ours get cast off to League 1 and 2, and we get cast offs from the Premier League.

Then the PL itself gets them in from outside the U.K.

All seems a bit weird really.


Not really when you think about it. Even the absolute tip-top academies probably have a 1 in 50 that is top PL/Champions League team quality, maybe a few that are mid-table and below PL quality, some that are Championship level, and the rest are going to be spread out among the lower leagues. If you are good enough, you will come through. John Swift, say, is a very good player for us, but he is not a player that you can see playing for Manchester City any time soon. Because there are effectively purges every year in academies, the bigger clubs start whittling down those players, and they move to smaller academies. Or they move on within a year of signing a professional contract.

You'll find it across Europe also - not every Juventus youth player will get to play for Juve as they won't be good enough. So there are players finding their level across all of the European leagues,

What you don't get a huge pile of is English players who don't make it in PL, heading out to the rest of Europe in search of first team football, in the way that European players come here. But I think that's a cultural and tradition thing.


Eamon's legacy means nothing then. how many millions have they spent on loan players these last 3 seasons? Reading FC want to
get promoted and do not want to risk this by fielding lots of academy players which is fair enough . Further down the Leagues the clubs see the potential and are willing to take these kids on as there expectations are less. English players don't travel abroad to play and don't need to (the amount of English players playing 1st Team football in English football is reducing every season) and Spanish, Italian...etc do it for the money only so that argument is about greed not culture.

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by Hound » 26 Jun 2017 11:55

to be honest, if they are of a good enough level I think we would give them a chance. Kelly is in the first 11 now, Watson will hopefully follow him in the near future. Tish came through the year before.

I just feel this batch of youngsters aren't quite good enough. Stacey, Tanner, Fosu didn't really stand out from what I can gather in div2, and Jules' loan at Motherwell seemed to be very up and down. Cooper had a reasonable loan at Millwall, but even he was benched for the last month of the season in the division below us


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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by muirinho » 26 Jun 2017 12:01

mambo3 wrote:
muirinho wrote:
Royal Rother wrote:it seems that every club in the country is developing young players for clubs lower down the structure.

Ours get cast off to League 1 and 2, and we get cast offs from the Premier League.

Then the PL itself gets them in from outside the U.K.

All seems a bit weird really.


Not really when you think about it. Even the absolute tip-top academies probably have a 1 in 50 that is top PL/Champions League team quality, maybe a few that are mid-table and below PL quality, some that are Championship level, and the rest are going to be spread out among the lower leagues. If you are good enough, you will come through. John Swift, say, is a very good player for us, but he is not a player that you can see playing for Manchester City any time soon. Because there are effectively purges every year in academies, the bigger clubs start whittling down those players, and they move to smaller academies. Or they move on within a year of signing a professional contract.

You'll find it across Europe also - not every Juventus youth player will get to play for Juve as they won't be good enough. So there are players finding their level across all of the European leagues,

What you don't get a huge pile of is English players who don't make it in PL, heading out to the rest of Europe in search of first team football, in the way that European players come here. But I think that's a cultural and tradition thing.


Eamon's legacy means nothing then. how many millions have they spent on loan players these last 3 seasons? Reading FC want to
get promoted and do not want to risk this by fielding lots of academy players which is fair enough . Further down the Leagues the clubs see the potential and are willing to take these kids on as there expectations are less. English players don't travel abroad to play and don't need to (the amount of English players playing 1st Team football in English football is reducing every season) and Spanish, Italian...etc do it for the money only so that argument is about greed not culture.


Not sure what you mean by this. Why don't they need to? Do you mean because there are opportunities enough in England?
I think there are definitely English players that would benefit by going to European clubs, because the style of play that suits them wouldn't be played in, say, a League 1 club. But they don't do it.

"Greed rather than culture" is a very sweeping statement. It may be true in some cases, but not in others. It wasn't greed that made Liam Moore look for a move from Leicester for instance. Also I suspect "greed" may not be solely for Spanish/Italian/wherever players - a player from a European club may look for less money than an academy graduate, despite being older and more experienced. Some of the sums of money being bandied about for English players at the top clubs are ludicrous.

I don't see that it breaks Eamon's legacy if some academy players move on to other clubs. Surely it's better for them to have careers in football at the level they are currently at, then rot on the bench, become disillusioned and drop out. I think he'd have been very proud to see his boys sign professional contracts, regardless of where that is.
However, loan players from Europe, totally agree with you there - complete waste of money, frustrating for academy players, and so far, none of them have worked out.
In business terms, I can see the use of buying in "rough diamonds" from abroad for cheap, paying them not very much money, dumping them if they don't work out, and selling on for profit if they do. That's actually very harsh on the players concerned if it doesn't work out for them, but it's a gamble I'd say they are willing to take, if they think it might advance their careers.

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by maffff » 26 Jun 2017 12:57

This may also reduce the pressure/cries from fans to play the youth somewhat...... possible blessing in disguise there.

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John Smith
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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by John Smith » 26 Jun 2017 13:43

Simon's Church wrote:Class how we apparently want to have 60% of the squad from the academy but sign plodders like popa, gravenberch and weiser ahead of keeping these guys in the squad :lol:

Hound wrote:to be honest, if they are of a good enough level I think we would give them a chance. Kelly is in the first 11 now, Watson will hopefully follow him in the near future. Tish came through the year before.

I just feel this batch of youngsters aren't quite good enough. Stacey, Tanner, Fosu didn't really stand out from what I can gather in div2, and Jules' loan at Motherwell seemed to be very up and down. Cooper had a reasonable loan at Millwall, but even he was benched for the last month of the season in the division below us

Hound is right - we aren't the kind of club to 'Mourinho' our youngsters. Stacey was at Exeter last season, Tanner at Plymouth - these aren't good teams. It's a shame but they simply aren't good enough

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tidus_mi2
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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by tidus_mi2 » 26 Jun 2017 13:45

Rob Dickie was getting solid reviews by all accounts, hopefully he can force his way into contention.


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Royal Rother
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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by Royal Rother » 26 Jun 2017 15:19

More Academies with players attached to clubs from a young age means there should be more English players available in the talent pool.

Yet there are fewer and fewer opportunities for these home-grown lads at all levels because we keep bringing in shite imports.

As Simon's Church intimated it is bloody daft that money has been spent on players like Rakels, Gravenberch, Weiser, Popa and the like (even Beerens I'd include in that list) whilst blocking the pathway for development of Samuel, Stacey, Fosu etc.

As for the "if they are good enough..." argument, seems to me it was more luck than judgement that enabled Kelly to get an opportunity. But then Brian McDermott wouldn't play anyone who was shorter than him.

But still, if the new batch of youngsters is the best yet, there's no point blocking THEIR pathway with an inferior bunch of not-so-young-sters I suppose. (Doesn't get over my view of the Weisers and Gravenberches though.)

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by maffff » 26 Jun 2017 16:36

Also, define youngster.

Wieser is younger than Moore, Rakels and Mendes..... he's 23 days older than Ilori and 10 months older than Obita.

Gravenberch is 2 months younger than Obita, a month younger than Harriott, less than two months older than Samuel/Blackett, 10 months older than Evans, just under a year older than Cooper, 14 months older than Swift, 21 months older than Kelly, etc etc...

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tidus_mi2
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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by tidus_mi2 » 26 Jun 2017 16:37

I'm less concerned, the players we've lost, while we had high hopes for them have hardly set the world alight. Fosu and Stacey are probably the ones who got closest to the standards needed at the club but they did quite well at League Two level.

The only one I have gotten a touch concerned about is the concentrated effort to sign a right back, considering that is surely going to negatively impact Tennai Watson's chances in the first team. That said, it could be an indicator that they are expecting Gunter to leave.

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by The Informant » 26 Jun 2017 16:56

Bond has gone on loan to Peterborough UTD.


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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by mambo3 » 26 Jun 2017 17:14

tidus_mi2 wrote:I'm less concerned, the players we've lost, while we had high hopes for them have hardly set the world alight. Fosu and Stacey are probably the ones who got closest to the standards needed at the club but they did quite well at League Two level.

The only one I have gotten a touch concerned about is the concentrated effort to sign a right back, considering that is surely going to negatively impact Tennai Watson's chances in the first team. That said, it could be an indicator that they are expecting Gunter to leave.


Disagree with what you say about Stacy and Fosu. Liam Kelly had a worse loan spell than Stacy and maybe even Fosu he didnt "set the world
alight" but was given a run in the 1st Team. If Stacy or Fosu had the same run out who knows what would of happened so its not always about
not being good enough but being in the right place at the right time.

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by FCReading1988 » 26 Jun 2017 18:41

The 'Outs' list is really starting to build up. Would be nice if we could start seeing a few 'Ins'.

Granted we still have a while but would be nice to get a few in early to give them time to bed in before the season starts. Would also be nice to not leave it to the last minute this time so we don't end up with the likes of Grabban or Mutch :lol:

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by NewCorkSeth » 26 Jun 2017 19:07

Snowflake Royal wrote:
NewCorkSeth wrote:
LWJ wrote:Looked like an Amsterdam flight from T5

And what cologne was he wearing Poirot?

We're signing Modeste and Jonas Hector!?! Wow.

Is that not how you spell that? I think it's spelled that way in france.

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by NewCorkSeth » 26 Jun 2017 19:11

bunkmoreland wrote:
maffff wrote:
NewCorkSeth wrote:Was expecting more promotion from within under Stam. Jules was tipped by a lot of Nobbers who have seen him play so its interesting.

I suppose the fact he was offered a contract indicates Stam isn't clearing out for the sake of it.

He had a terrible loan at motherwell, maybe saw what happened to Kuhl and given we have Dickie and Andresson he thinks a permanent move will be best for his career. It's league one, so done pretty well to get that and hopefully he'll find his level over his career.


Afternoon, I'm a Motherwell fan I'd posted over in your academy thread when we took Jules on loan but thought I'd chip in here. I don't think it can really be overstated just how bad a time Jules had up here. He looked so far out his depth it was untrue. There's absolutely no chance he'd have been anywhere near your first team based on his performances at Motherwell. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 4 goals he was directly responsible for that arose from an error on his part, which given he only made 7 starts isn't that great going.

Jules wasn't helped by the fact we had something of a defensive crisis in that Stephen McManus, our only experienced centre half, was ruled out for the season in February when he was injured after 5 mins in the 2-0 loss to Celtic which caused all sorts of problems for the remainder of the games. Jules gave away a needless penalty for Celtic's opener in that game and it got worse the following week when he opened the scoring for Dundee with a headed OG from 14 yards in a 5-1 defeat where our defence just collapsed.

Image

It was unfortunate for Jules as he was clearly brought in as cover but the more he played and the circumstances in which he was playing he looked like the classic Academy player who was used to having time on the ball and not actually having to defend. He was frequently caught in possession and struggled with the physical side of the game see Hearts 3rd below as an example.

Image

He was prone to some exceptionally poor decision making, again he's only 19 so you expect mistakes it just seemed like every mistake he made it it was costing goals and points. Some of the errors he was making were proper horror shows best typified by his inexplicable decision where (having only been on the park 4 minutes) at 0-0 with 8 mins to go in a relegation scrap against Ross County he stopped a ball running out for a goal kick on the bye line (under no pressure), then try to play a 1-2 by squaring a ball into his own box. From the lost possession County scored and we lost 1-0. That was the last he set foot on the park for us.

Image

Having said all that, he seems a nice lad and he's definitely an athlete but given he struggled for us in the Scottish Premiership, I honestly can't see where he'd have fitted in for a Reading side in the Championship. Hopefully the step down a level works out for him and he manages to cut out the errors in his game with more regular first team football.

This was a really fantastic and informative post. Thank you.

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by muirinho » 26 Jun 2017 19:11

mambo3 wrote: so its not always about not being good enough but being in the right place at the right time.


Definitely true - Antonio was good enough, but wasn't in the right place at the right time. Him leaving was the best thing for him. May well turn out to be the same for these guys. They've had a good grounding, it's now time for them to show what they can do, when they are consistently playing in the first team. Loan players often don't get the chances that permanent players get, because there is less invested in them.

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genome
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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by genome » 26 Jun 2017 20:02

Shit :lol: The edit button has disappeared from my original post. Awks

Any mods wanna help me out?

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Re: Summer Ins and Outs

by Hound » 26 Jun 2017 20:29

Interesting post on Jules that. Didn't sound great

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