Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

Nameless
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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Nameless » 15 Sep 2017 10:04

Not sure of your point Maff
You seem to think the ex manager of Jong Ajax doesn't believe in young players. Despite there being no evidence to support this.
Are the current 18-19 year olds further from the first team than the 20-21 year olds who weren't up to it ? Strangely most of them are right now. Some look like they might be decent - Andresson is my top prospect. Who knows but Stam will select on merit, and is also under the same pressure all managers are to deliver instant success. I can't see anyone doing a Kelly this year (Watson if he ever gets fit and Gunter ever gets injured would be a good shout).

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by maffff » 15 Sep 2017 10:21

Nameless wrote:Not sure of your point Maff


1) Academy paid for itself for another year.
2) We've let a load of academy players go who were always one more year away from the first team, other young players have moved up from the academy over the summer and this lot don't seem to be much further away from the first team quality wise than the older batch that were released/sold. That's encouraging isn't it?

Nameless wrote:You seem to think the ex manager of Jong Ajax doesn't believe in young players. Despite there being no evidence to support this.


Think you're thinking of someone else? I've never suggested that.

Nameless wrote:Are the current 18-19 year olds further from the first team than the 20-21 year olds who weren't up to it ? Strangely most of them are right now


Not that far tbh. Expect we'll see as many youth graduates get game time this season as we did last year.

Nameless wrote:I can't see anyone doing a Kelly this year (Watson if he ever gets fit and Gunter ever gets injured would be a good shout).

Likewise, not expecting anyone to cement themselves, given the likes of Andresson / Rinomhota are in places where we are stacked for numbers. Watson and Richards could get a chance at a stretch.

Never know who will step up though. Richards seemingly came out of nowhere over this summer, wasn't first choice LB for the u23 team until January last year. Watson also appeared from nowhere.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Nameless » 15 Sep 2017 13:23

Sincere apologies Maff, confused you with Muskrat. It's the M that did it !

Having confused you it completely coloured my reading of your post with I took to be written in a scathing, sarcastic tone. Sorry.... rereading it I agree with much of your thinking

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by maffff » 15 Sep 2017 13:30

No worries, happens. :)

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by SCIAG » 15 Sep 2017 13:57

Stranded wrote:Have seen the quote 'Smith is scoring for fun in the u23s', do people actually pay attention. He has scored 2 this year in one game. Last season, he scored 2 in 10 games. Weird definition of fun. He could be good but is only near the 1st team at the mo due to lack of numbers up top.

Last season Danny Loader scored 5 goals in a full season. He was the new Messiah when he scored four goals in one match.

Nameless wrote:Not sure how to explain the failure of the Kuhl cohort,

My hot take is that we fired three managers in two years, signed ten new players a year, and sent our young players out on counterproductive loans so they could play out of position for long-ball teams.


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Forbury Lion » 15 Sep 2017 14:05

Could the lack of academy players breaking though into the first team be a sign that our academy isn't producing the right quality of players? - Is this a knock on from Eamon Dolan's replacement not being as good or something? Maybe this is why Martin Kuhl has been replaced?

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Nameless » 15 Sep 2017 15:28

Bit tough to blame Dolan's replacement for quality of players, he's hardly had a chance to influence recruitment or coaching. The players coming through are the product of Dolan's work.
Of course the bottom line is there ISN'T an issue. Expecting to produce one first team player a year is probably quite optimistic. The point under discussion is that what looked like a very good group didn't do as well as hoped. I though the likes of Stacey, Tishbola , Kuhl and Dickie would be good enough. I would say of that group there has been two huge successes and a minor one (Kelly, Tishbola and Cooper) with Watson yet to be properly judged. I don't think that is at all bad, just not as good as it looked it might be.
The current u23 crop don't look as good a group to me, but there are some very talented players.
In terms of whether loans help, it's not black and white. Amish flourished out on loan, Andresson has benefitted, Kelly probably save his career when he went to Bath. Some players grow up when they have to move away, do stuff that is different to what they are used to, others flounder.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by LWJ » 15 Sep 2017 15:37

Muskrat wrote:It's all irrelevant anyway, Stam isn't interested in our Academy or the players it produces, he showed that in the summer when he released or sold almost all of our most promising youngsters (obvious exception being Kelly but even Stam couldn't ignore his burgeoning talent). He wants to tap into our new owners deep pockets and buy our way out of the league before moving on to pastures new I'm afraid. I'm also afraid that both of those plans are going to fail :|

Absolutely clueless.

Be interested to know who you think is currently flourishing having left the club over the summer.. ?

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by paultheroyal » 15 Sep 2017 16:11

Nameless wrote:Neither Smith nor Rimonhota are ready, although I think Rimonhota is closer than Smith.
I'd not have too much of a concern if Andresson had to play, and he certainly looks to have a very decent future.

Don't think there is a ready made answer to the 'when are they ready' question. Sometimes injuries force a decision and a players surprises you but just because one or two very special players were first teasers / internationals at a young age that doesn't mean you can throw others in early.

Interesting that Smith seems to be flavour of the week with some (based on very little real evidence) when it would seem Loader is far the better prospect. Smith would probably not make the U23 side if we were selecting from a full squad.

Out of interest if these 3 players were on the bench which 3 players would not be included ? Presumably Andresson would replace Obita or Ilori (nope !). Rimonhota ahead of Edwards or Evans (nope). Smith ahead of Clement (nope).


You pretty much have nailed that particularly around Loader vs Smith comments. I wish Smith well but just not seeing the performance in him that others have. Thought he looked very ordinary in the cup games. People are reacting over him like they were Kuhl, Barrett etc....

If only we had the same reaction to Antonio...... oh

:wink:


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Sutekh » 15 Sep 2017 16:38

maffff wrote:
Nameless wrote:
Hound wrote:Tbf, nearly all of them have found league clubs. Wouldn't class that as a failure really


Failure is of course relative.
They have all,failed to make the grade with us.
They've all failed to make the grade in the Championship (even Cooper isn't starting many games at one of the weakest clubs in the division).
They've not failed in terms of having jobs as professional footballers but 3 or 4 years ago it looked like we might have a set of players all good enough to make our first team.
They have failed to do that....


Many of those that we've let go could well end up in the Championship in due course - we've managed to get them careers, they may not have made the grade here but the academy will have self-financed for another year. Also, this new batch doesn't seem further away than the academy lads we just let go. That's encouraging right?


Most chose to not make the grade with Reading. Rather take their chances at a lower level and more likely get a shot at first team football. Early stages of course but dont think any are "pulling up trees" as yet but very good luck to them all in trying.

As to those left, they are very bright prospects and if Jaap thought they were good enough they'd be in the side and I would suggest that if any management team would know if a kid was good enough then it'd be Jaap and co.

Kelly is in the side, Watson, Richards and Rinomhota are probably next in line, then it's Smith and Loader. And if that lot are all regulars in the next 3/4 years then I would suggest that is a pretty good return and proving that Academy works.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Nameless » 15 Sep 2017 16:45

Sutekh wrote:
maffff wrote:
Nameless wrote:
Failure is of course relative.
They have all,failed to make the grade with us.
They've all failed to make the grade in the Championship (even Cooper isn't starting many games at one of the weakest clubs in the division).
They've not failed in terms of having jobs as professional footballers but 3 or 4 years ago it looked like we might have a set of players all good enough to make our first team.
They have failed to do that....


Many of those that we've let go could well end up in the Championship in due course - we've managed to get them careers, they may not have made the grade here but the academy will have self-financed for another year. Also, this new batch doesn't seem further away than the academy lads we just let go. That's encouraging right?


Most chose to not make the grade with Reading. Rather take their chances at a lower level and more likely get a shot at first team football. Early stages of course but dont think any are "pulling up trees" as yet but very good luck to them all in trying.

As to those left, they are very bright prospects and if Jaap thought they were good enough they'd be in the side and I would suggest that if any management team would know if a kid was good enough then it'd be Jaap and co.

Kelly is in the side, Watson, Richards and Rinomhota are probably next in line, then it's Smith and Loader. And if that lot are all regulars in the next 3/4 years then I would suggest that is a pretty good return and proving that Academy works.


I think Andresson is very close to being a serious option for the first team squad (which I don't think Rimonhota is yet) and of course Novacovic is well ahead of Smith and Loader.
Barrett is an interesting one, and I have a concern that he is not fulfilling his potential. Partly because I don't think we know where to play him and partly because I suspect he may not be the sort of player Stam likes /wants.
If we are looking 3-4 years ahead then McIntyre would be a shoe in to be a starter if the hopes at the the club are fulfilled. He needs a season without injury but if he gets that he may do a Kelly before long,

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Sutekh » 15 Sep 2017 16:49

Nameless wrote:
Sutekh wrote:
maffff wrote:
Many of those that we've let go could well end up in the Championship in due course - we've managed to get them careers, they may not have made the grade here but the academy will have self-financed for another year. Also, this new batch doesn't seem further away than the academy lads we just let go. That's encouraging right?


Most chose to not make the grade with Reading. Rather take their chances at a lower level and more likely get a shot at first team football. Early stages of course but dont think any are "pulling up trees" as yet but very good luck to them all in trying.

As to those left, they are very bright prospects and if Jaap thought they were good enough they'd be in the side and I would suggest that if any management team would know if a kid was good enough then it'd be Jaap and co.

Kelly is in the side, Watson, Richards and Rinomhota are probably next in line, then it's Smith and Loader. And if that lot are all regulars in the next 3/4 years then I would suggest that is a pretty good return and proving that Academy works.


I think Andresson is very close to being a serious option for the first team squad (which I don't think Rimonhota is yet) and of course Novacovic is well ahead of Smith and Loader.
Barrett is an interesting one, and I have a concern that he is not fulfilling his potential. Partly because I don't think we know where to play him and partly because I suspect he may not be the sort of player Stam likes /wants.
If we are looking 3-4 years ahead then McIntyre would be a shoe in to be a starter if the hopes at the the club are fulfilled. He needs a season without injury but if he gets that he may do a Kelly before long,


Admittedly forgot about Andresson (& the highly rated Holsgrove) :oops:

Not sure about Novakovich (or Meite come to that) as they've both been given loan opportunities so the worry is that if they don't do well that they'll be moving on next summer.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by maffff » 15 Sep 2017 17:10

Sutekh wrote:if they don't do well that they'll be moving on next summer.


Or they do well and their expectations are a squad role greater than we can offer.... and they leave.

Fosu has started well (like his loans..) but as a CAM, not seen much on the others. Jules has already fallen down the pecking order and been loaned out.

Meite hasn't featured much. Novakovich doing well. Rakels has been poor. Danzell barely featured (had a foot injury) - one half game in a cup and subbed on late at 4-0 down. Wieser was unused on the bench in his first game.


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Hound » 15 Sep 2017 17:29

Saw Jules was now at Chesterfield on loan

Novakovich was loaned with a view to being with the first team squad next year from the look of it - hence the two year contract. Sounds like it's going well so far

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Esteban » 15 Sep 2017 20:27

McCarthy, Karacan, Pearce, Robson-Kanu, Hector, Obita, Cooper, Tshibola and Kelly have all made the step up in recent years. The Academy is working.

Stam did a good job of integrating Liam Kelly. He sees the likes of Smith, Andresson and Rinomhota every day in training, playing against Championship quality players. He'll know whether they are ready or not.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Hound » 15 Sep 2017 20:39

Couple more for Novakovich tonight

Not sure what the standard is but looks hopeful

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by muirinho » 15 Sep 2017 23:49

Nameless wrote:we're going to have to disagree Hound.
The players have all, bar Kelly, fallen short. They were given the opportunity to be Championship players and they didn't achieve it.
None of them who went out on loan showed anything close to the levels of performance expected.
It's disappointing and hopefully one or two may climb their way back up the ladder, but from a team that was able to compete and win against the very best sides in the country to produce just one Championship regular has to raise questions. Perhaps it was a classic case of the team exceeding the ability of the individuals, but that team should not just have produced 10 journeymen and one first teamer....


Out of interest, because I am a very sad person, I went and dug out the Man City team from that PL cup final, back in 2014. The team next to them is who they are currently playing for

GK Ian Lawlor - Doncaster Rovers
DF Adam Drury - Grimsby Borough
DF Greg Leigh - Bury
DF Shay Facey - SC Herenveen (loan) - still with City
DF Jason Denayer - Galatasaray (loan) still with City
MF George Glendon - Fleetwood Town
MF Sinan Bytyqi - diagnosed with a heart condition last year while on loan to Go Ahead Eagles - not sure if he is still playing
MF Olivier Ntcham - Celtic
FW Jordy Hiwula - Huddersfield - on loan at Fleetwood Town
FW Marcos Lopes - Monaco - has spent most of his time with them out on loan
FW Devante Cole - Fleetwood Town
DF Ellis Plummer - Motherwell
GK Billy O'Brien - Macclesfield Town
DF Mathias Bossaerts - K.V. Oostende
DF Jose Tasende - NAC Breda
MF Seko Fofana - Udinese

None of them have played a single senior game for Manchester City.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by 3points » 16 Sep 2017 14:44

I thought it was strange that Zak Jules, who I believe Stam wanted to stay, went to Shrewsbury in League 1 and he's been loaned out to a league 2 side already.

If we had less money then I'd expect more to come through. Last year was a bit disappointing given players like gravenberch, Meite and Mendes all got game time but are probably not better prospects than what we had in the U23s

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Snowflake Royal » 16 Sep 2017 15:23

Forbury Lion wrote:Could the lack of academy players breaking though into the first team be a sign that our academy isn't producing the right quality of players? - Is this a knock on from Eamon Dolan's replacement not being as good or something? Maybe this is why Martin Kuhl has been replaced?

What lack of academy players breaking into the first team FFS.

McCarthy
Robson-Kanu
Church
Sigurdsson
Hector
Obita
Taylor
Cooper
Tshibola
Kelly

All made plenty of appearances even if they didn't all cement a longer term position, or moved on. Plus Tanner, Watson, Stacy, Fosu, Barrett, Smith, Andressen, Richardson, Dickie(?), Samuel etc making debuts.

Anyone who expects more than one player a year to break into the first team to the point of getting double figure starts has stupidly high expectations.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by mambo3 » 18 Sep 2017 10:51

Snowflake Royal wrote:
Forbury Lion wrote:Could the lack of academy players breaking though into the first team be a sign that our academy isn't producing the right quality of players? - Is this a knock on from Eamon Dolan's replacement not being as good or something? Maybe this is why Martin Kuhl has been replaced?

What lack of academy players breaking into the first team FFS.

McCarthy
Robson-Kanu
Church
Sigurdsson
Hector
Obita
Taylor
Cooper
Tshibola
Kelly

All made plenty of appearances even if they didn't all cement a longer term position, or moved on. Plus Tanner, Watson, Stacy, Fosu, Barrett, Smith, Andressen, Richardson, Dickie(?), Samuel etc making debuts.

Anyone who expects more than one player a year to break into the first team to the point of getting double figure starts has stupidly high expectations.


Like Ferguson - Man Utd. Who was it that said you cant win trophies with kids.

The question should be more why did they want to move on as I understand most were offered new contracts and refused
and the others Tanner, Watson, Fosu, Cooper, Stacy, Keown did they really get a chance? What have we achieved by getting rid of
so many players then moaning about transfers fees ....etc.

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