Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Hound » 18 Sep 2017 11:06

sure Watson still would be getting a chance if he wasn't long term injured

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 Sep 2017 11:47

The window for playing multiple inexperienced youngsters is incredibly slim in this insanely competitive division.

When you have nothing really to aim for and either no fear of going down, or expecting to go down so there's nothing to lose. Or when you're 2-3 goals to the good with 10 - 20 minutes left.

I'll admit I'm disappointed Watson got injured, I was really looking forward to him getting some more cup games and building the experience that lets us ditch Gunter.

I was sad to see Hyam, Tanner and Stacey go, although, I'm not convinced Stacey fits the current system that well. Kuhl was a massive let down after some very promising starts. I think the departure of Adkins and arrival of that tosser Clarke totally fooked his career.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 18 Sep 2017 12:11

Snowflake Royal The window for playing multiple inexperienced youngsters is incredibly slim in this insanely competitive division.

When you have nothing really to aim for and either no fear of going down, or expecting to go down so there's nothing to lose. Or when you're 2-3 goals to the good with 10 - 20 minutes left.

I'll admit I'm disappointed Watson got injured, I was really looking forward to him getting some more cup games and building the experience that lets us ditch Gunter.

I was sad to see Hyam, Tanner and Stacey go, although, I'm not convinced Stacey fits the current system that well. Kuhl was a massive let down after some very promising starts. I think the departure of Adkins and arrival of that tosser Clarke totally fooked his career.


Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 Sep 2017 12:16

Tilehurstsouthbank
Snowflake Royal The window for playing multiple inexperienced youngsters is incredibly slim in this insanely competitive division.

When you have nothing really to aim for and either no fear of going down, or expecting to go down so there's nothing to lose. Or when you're 2-3 goals to the good with 10 - 20 minutes left.

I'll admit I'm disappointed Watson got injured, I was really looking forward to him getting some more cup games and building the experience that lets us ditch Gunter.

I was sad to see Hyam, Tanner and Stacey go, although, I'm not convinced Stacey fits the current system that well. Kuhl was a massive let down after some very promising starts. I think the departure of Adkins and arrival of that tosser Clarke totally fooked his career.


Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.

Yes, agreed. But I think part of that was frustration and a lack of opportunity having proved himself as capable at Championship level and then being dropped and ignored. And I don't really think the loans he was sent out on were well thought out in terms of suitability for him.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 18 Sep 2017 12:31

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Snowflake Royal The window for playing multiple inexperienced youngsters is incredibly slim in this insanely competitive division.

When you have nothing really to aim for and either no fear of going down, or expecting to go down so there's nothing to lose. Or when you're 2-3 goals to the good with 10 - 20 minutes left.

I'll admit I'm disappointed Watson got injured, I was really looking forward to him getting some more cup games and building the experience that lets us ditch Gunter.

I was sad to see Hyam, Tanner and Stacey go, although, I'm not convinced Stacey fits the current system that well. Kuhl was a massive let down after some very promising starts. I think the departure of Adkins and arrival of that tosser Clarke totally fooked his career.


Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.

Yes, agreed. But I think part of that was frustration and a lack of opportunity having proved himself as capable at Championship level and then being dropped and ignored. And I don't really think the loans he was sent out on were well thought out in terms of suitability for him.


A valid point but was Bath City a good loan choice for Kelly? Maybe, maybe not but he sure made the best of it.


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 Sep 2017 12:44

Point. I think the circumstances are different, but you're far from wrong.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by mambo3 » 18 Sep 2017 12:50

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Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.

Yes, agreed. But I think part of that was frustration and a lack of opportunity having proved himself as capable at Championship level and then being dropped and ignored. And I don't really think the loans he was sent out on were well thought out in terms of suitability for him.


A valid point but was Bath City a good loan choice for Kelly? Maybe, maybe not but he sure made the best of it.


Kelly didn't play a lot of games and was sub more often then not for Bath city and if the truth be known was not rated. however he certainly proved them wrong now and shows that if the have a manager who likes the way you play and gives you a chance then only positive things
can happen.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 18 Sep 2017 15:04

Kuhl looked competent in his first team runouts but didn't look any better than Jake Taylor or Ryan Edwards.

Tanner spent 2 years on the bench at Plymouth and Fosu struggled to get games in League 2.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by muirinho » 18 Sep 2017 15:39

From Despair To Where? Kuhl looked competent in his first team runouts but didn't look any better than Jake Taylor or Ryan Edwards.

Tanner spent 2 years on the bench at Plymouth and Fosu struggled to get games in League 2.


Quite a lot of players "don't look out of place" when they get a runout with the first team. But that doesn't mean they are as good as what's normally there. If you just have one or two newbies, the rest of the team can carry them and protect them. But that may end up dragging the whole team performance down slightly, because of the effort of doing that. So you have the odd situation that, superficially at least, the junior looks better than they actually are, because their mistakes are being covered, and the other players look worse than they are, because they are the ones doing the covering.

To actually break in to the first team, a player needs to be (a) demonstrably better than the player he's replacing, or (b) the team as a whole is better with that replacement than with his predecessor. Or both!


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Stranded » 18 Sep 2017 15:51

mambo3
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Snowflake Royal Yes, agreed. But I think part of that was frustration and a lack of opportunity having proved himself as capable at Championship level and then being dropped and ignored. And I don't really think the loans he was sent out on were well thought out in terms of suitability for him.


A valid point but was Bath City a good loan choice for Kelly? Maybe, maybe not but he sure made the best of it.


Kelly didn't play a lot of games and was sub more often then not for Bath city and if the truth be known was not rated. however he certainly proved them wrong now and shows that if the have a manager who likes the way you play and gives you a chance then only positive things
can happen.


That would be the Liam Kelly who joined on loan at Bath initially for one month in Feb '16, was extended to the end of the season, played 16 games (i.e. pretty much all of them) and scored 6 goals - that Liam Kelly?

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by mambo3 » 18 Sep 2017 16:13

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A valid point but was Bath City a good loan choice for Kelly? Maybe, maybe not but he sure made the best of it.


Kelly didn't play a lot of games and was sub more often then not for Bath city and if the truth be known was not rated. however he certainly proved them wrong now and shows that if the have a manager who likes the way you play and gives you a chance then only positive things
can happen.


That would be the Liam Kelly who joined on loan at Bath initially for one month in Feb '16, was extended to the end of the season, played 16 games (i.e. pretty much all of them) and scored 6 goals - that Liam Kelly?


16 appearances most of them as a sub but doesn't matter anyway. Still proved them wrong.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by SCIAG » 18 Sep 2017 16:26

muirinho
From Despair To Where? Kuhl looked competent in his first team runouts but didn't look any better than Jake Taylor or Ryan Edwards.

Tanner spent 2 years on the bench at Plymouth and Fosu struggled to get games in League 2.


Quite a lot of players "don't look out of place" when they get a runout with the first team. But that doesn't mean they are as good as what's normally there. If you just have one or two newbies, the rest of the team can carry them and protect them. But that may end up dragging the whole team performance down slightly, because of the effort of doing that. So you have the odd situation that, superficially at least, the junior looks better than they actually are, because their mistakes are being covered, and the other players look worse than they are, because they are the ones doing the covering.

To actually break in to the first team, a player needs to be (a) demonstrably better than the player he's replacing, or (b) the team as a whole is better with that replacement than with his predecessor. Or both!

wrt. Kuhl at least, he came into a team that was in complete disarray. We had Obita and Akpan in midfield and they were bloody dreadful. Kuhl came on at half time and completely transformed our performance. He was man of the match, and again in his second game. He was done in because within 24 hours of his debut we signed Oliver Norwood. Not remotely comparable to Taylor and Edwards, who were ordinary players who looked ordinary.

I actually think the issue with Kuhl's attitude was probably more that he wasn't billy big bollocks enough - saw Norwood, Alex Fernandez and Evans coming in and gradually lost confidence in his own ability and stopped playing with the same zest. Just my impression so probably completely wrong!

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 18 Sep 2017 16:29

muirinho
From Despair To Where? Kuhl looked competent in his first team runouts but didn't look any better than Jake Taylor or Ryan Edwards.

Tanner spent 2 years on the bench at Plymouth and Fosu struggled to get games in League 2.


Quite a lot of players "don't look out of place" when they get a runout with the first team. But that doesn't mean they are as good as what's normally there. If you just have one or two newbies, the rest of the team can carry them and protect them. But that may end up dragging the whole team performance down slightly, because of the effort of doing that. So you have the odd situation that, superficially at least, the junior looks better than they actually are, because their mistakes are being covered, and the other players look worse than they are, because they are the ones doing the covering.

To actually break in to the first team, a player needs to be (a) demonstrably better than the player he's replacing, or (b) the team as a whole is better with that replacement than with his predecessor. Or both!



People raved about Kuhl because he was captain of a very talented pool of players that did well at age group level.

Where are that team now?


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 Sep 2017 18:55

From Despair To Where?
muirinho
From Despair To Where? Kuhl looked competent in his first team runouts but didn't look any better than Jake Taylor or Ryan Edwards.

Tanner spent 2 years on the bench at Plymouth and Fosu struggled to get games in League 2.


Quite a lot of players "don't look out of place" when they get a runout with the first team. But that doesn't mean they are as good as what's normally there. If you just have one or two newbies, the rest of the team can carry them and protect them. But that may end up dragging the whole team performance down slightly, because of the effort of doing that. So you have the odd situation that, superficially at least, the junior looks better than they actually are, because their mistakes are being covered, and the other players look worse than they are, because they are the ones doing the covering.

To actually break in to the first team, a player needs to be (a) demonstrably better than the player he's replacing, or (b) the team as a whole is better with that replacement than with his predecessor. Or both!



People raved about Kuhl because he was captain of a very talented pool of players that did well at age group level.

Where are that team now?

Doing better than many of their peer group from other clubs, playing professional league football.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 18 Sep 2017 19:08

....but failing to match the hype. That's not their fault though, its down to unrealistic expectations maybe because of the graduation return of Pearce, Karacan, Sigurdsson, HRK, Church and Obita (half a team basically) in the space of 3 years.

I'd rather we had realistic expectations. Currently we have Kelly and potentially Watson and Andreasson making an impact on the first team. That's a pretty good return

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 Sep 2017 20:01

From Despair To Where? ....but failing to match the hype. That's not their fault though, its down to unrealistic expectations maybe because of the graduation return of Pearce, Karacan, Sigurdsson, HRK, Church and Obita (half a team basically) in the space of 3 years.

I'd rather we had realistic expectations. Currently we have Kelly and potentially Watson and Andreasson making an impact on the first team. That's a pretty good return

Agreed.

Aim should be trying to match 1 a year graduating to double figures appearances IMO. And say, of those, one every three years going on to become a regular first teamer.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by WAZZOCK » 18 Sep 2017 20:36

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Snowflake Royal The window for playing multiple inexperienced youngsters is incredibly slim in this insanely competitive division.

When you have nothing really to aim for and either no fear of going down, or expecting to go down so there's nothing to lose. Or when you're 2-3 goals to the good with 10 - 20 minutes left.

I'll admit I'm disappointed Watson got injured, I was really looking forward to him getting some more cup games and building the experience that lets us ditch Gunter.

I was sad to see Hyam, Tanner and Stacey go, although, I'm not convinced Stacey fits the current system that well. Kuhl was a massive let down after some very promising starts. I think the departure of Adkins and arrival of that tosser Clarke totally fooked his career.


Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.


Do you have any basis for saying this, or have you just made it up?

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by 3points » 18 Sep 2017 20:41

I remember saying on a thread about three years ago that I couldn't decide whether Kuhl was going to have a stellar career or disappear into non league football. Well both my options were wrong! There aren't many teams who play that water carrier type role where everything goes through the playmaker. Surprised Adkins didn't try to sign him when he became boss at Sheffield Utd

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Hound » 19 Sep 2017 08:28

Found this an interesting article and I think relevant to the thread. Its context is the Huddersfield decision to close their academy:

http://www.football365.com/news/will-ot ... -abolition

Raises a question for me whether the be all and end all of a football club academy is solely for the benefit of the clubs first team. Reading's own youth set up gives the chance for hundreds of kids to turn out for their development squad which gives them the chance even if they are not ever going to make pro footballers to improve themselves to the best of their abilities, increase their confidence and get the chance to 'play for Reading' in some guise

To me, it leaves a slightly sour taste that Udders, newly awash with money, are closing the academy, preventing this chance for the local kids, whilst no doubt making many coaches redundant

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 19 Sep 2017 08:44

Huddersfield's loss will undoubtedly be Bradford and Halifax's gain.

Would we be the same boat without a Cat1 academy?

How many of our academy graduates are currently signed to Premiership clubs? Sig, Hector, McCarthy, HRK, Hamer. Any more? I don't really include Long or Federici.

That's still a pretty decent number. You can then add the number who have made careers in the Championship.

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