Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Hound » 19 Sep 2017 08:59

From Despair To Where? Huddersfield's loss will undoubtedly be Bradford and Halifax's gain.

Would we be the same boat without a Cat1 academy?


not sure -but certainly gives the motivation to keep it at that level.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Stranded » 19 Sep 2017 09:54

mambo3
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Kelly didn't play a lot of games and was sub more often then not for Bath city and if the truth be known was not rated. however he certainly proved them wrong now and shows that if the have a manager who likes the way you play and gives you a chance then only positive things
can happen.


That would be the Liam Kelly who joined on loan at Bath initially for one month in Feb '16, was extended to the end of the season, played 16 games (i.e. pretty much all of them) and scored 6 goals - that Liam Kelly?


16 appearances most of them as a sub but doesn't matter anyway. Still proved them wrong.


Why do you hate Bath City?

Kelly started all 16 games, was only subbed off in 4 of them, played over 1300 mins for his 6 goals. Really not hard to check that info.

http://uk.soccerway.com/players/liam-kelly/318683/

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 19 Sep 2017 10:11

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Snowflake Royal The window for playing multiple inexperienced youngsters is incredibly slim in this insanely competitive division.

When you have nothing really to aim for and either no fear of going down, or expecting to go down so there's nothing to lose. Or when you're 2-3 goals to the good with 10 - 20 minutes left.

I'll admit I'm disappointed Watson got injured, I was really looking forward to him getting some more cup games and building the experience that lets us ditch Gunter.

I was sad to see Hyam, Tanner and Stacey go, although, I'm not convinced Stacey fits the current system that well. Kuhl was a massive let down after some very promising starts. I think the departure of Adkins and arrival of that tosser Clarke totally fooked his career.


Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.


Do you have any basis for saying this, or have you just made it up?


The key word in my statement is 'Think' mate so it's only a guess. Doesn't mean that's definitely what happed, just what I thought might have happened.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by 6ft Kerplunk » 19 Sep 2017 11:38

From Despair To Where? Huddersfield's loss will undoubtedly be Bradford and Halifax's gain.


Not sure it will make that much difference. Bradford's reputation was better than Huddersfield's anyway (based on what my colleague tells me, her son having bounced around most of the academies in the area). Man City seem to be able to pick up the best kids.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by LWJ » 19 Sep 2017 11:46

Tilehurstsouthbank
Snowflake Royal The window for playing multiple inexperienced youngsters is incredibly slim in this insanely competitive division.

When you have nothing really to aim for and either no fear of going down, or expecting to go down so there's nothing to lose. Or when you're 2-3 goals to the good with 10 - 20 minutes left.

I'll admit I'm disappointed Watson got injured, I was really looking forward to him getting some more cup games and building the experience that lets us ditch Gunter.

I was sad to see Hyam, Tanner and Stacey go, although, I'm not convinced Stacey fits the current system that well. Kuhl was a massive let down after some very promising starts. I think the departure of Adkins and arrival of that tosser Clarke totally fooked his career.


Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.

As I have alluded to on here previously. Kuhl had an attitude that was ultimately his downfall at Reading. He showed that here and whilst out on loan.

I hope the lad gets his head down when he's back from injury and proves us (and his loan clubs) wrong.


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by WAZZOCK » 19 Sep 2017 13:54

Tilehurstsouthbank
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Nothing to do with Kuhl's own attitude? He had multiple loans and did pretty much oxf*rd all. If you can't hold down a place at Boreham Wood on loan, you're not trying hard enough. I'd love it if he popped up somewhere and really made a name for himself, but I think he went all Billy big spuds after his initial Reading debut went to his head.


Do you have any basis for saying this, or have you just made it up?


The key word in my statement is 'Think' mate so it's only a guess. Doesn't mean that's definitely what happed, just what I thought might have happened.


Ok, I'll change the question. What evidence can you bring forward that would suggest that what you think is actually correct?

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 20 Sep 2017 09:07

WAZZOCK
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WAZZOCK
Do you have any basis for saying this, or have you just made it up?


The key word in my statement is 'Think' mate so it's only a guess. Doesn't mean that's definitely what happed, just what I thought might have happened.


Ok, I'll change the question. What evidence can you bring forward that would suggest that what you think is actually correct?


Look fella, it's a hypothesis. I never stated it as fact. Just that I think it's possible he may have an attitude problem and I'm only basing my opinion (once again not fact, just a thought) on the fact he's not shown any where near the quality or desire at any of his loans clubs that he did with the appearances he made for us in the first team and his play for the successful youth side.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 20 Sep 2017 09:28

From what I heard, Kuhl got disillusioned with the game. Whilst that clearly suggests a problem with his attitude, its a far cry from suggesting he's a billy big bollocks.

I still find it odd that everyone also harks to this "golden" spell in the first team. He was competent, but didn't particularly stand out compared to other academy graduates in the team.
Last edited by From Despair To Where? on 20 Sep 2017 09:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 20 Sep 2017 09:33

From Despair To Where? From what I heard, Kuhl got disillusioned with the game. Whilst that clearly suggests a problem with his attitude, its a far cry from suggesting he's a billy big bollocks.


Whatever happened I think we can all agree it's a shame as the lad showed real promise.


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 20 Sep 2017 09:35

He showed as much promise as half a dozen other players from that youth side but as captain was singled out for particularly high expectation.

Likewise Fosu on the basis of a 60 minute 1st team cameo.
Last edited by From Despair To Where? on 20 Sep 2017 09:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by tidus_mi2 » 20 Sep 2017 09:37

It seems ludicrous to me that a Premier League club would shut down it's academy, they can easily afford it. Hopefully the FA look into the reasons why they would shut down their academy because if they want England to a force at the International stage, they can't have a scenario where a top division sides deems their academy surplus to requirements.

I know it's just one team and to my recollection, Huddersfield didn't exactly have a reputation for bringing through players, but surely the FA want as many teams as possible to be running youth academies and probably all the teams from the top 2 divisions.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by muirinho » 20 Sep 2017 09:57

tidus_mi2 It seems ludicrous to me that a Premier League club would shut down it's academy, they can easily afford it. Hopefully the FA look into the reasons why they would shut down their academy because if they want England to a force at the International stage, they can't have a scenario where a top division sides deems their academy surplus to requirements.

I know it's just one team and to my recollection, Huddersfield didn't exactly have a reputation for bringing through players, but surely the FA want as many teams as possible to be running youth academies and probably all the teams from the top 2 divisions.


Brentford folded their academy end of the 2015/1016 season, saying it basically cost too much. That's a Championship team, with promotion aspirations, without an academy

Hull, even though they were in the PL at the time, only have, I think, a Cat3 academy? Certainly, we were able to get Harry Cardwell from them, because our academy was ranked higher. Didn't work out for Cardwell mind you.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Hound » 20 Sep 2017 10:03

tidus_mi2 It seems ludicrous to me that a Premier League club would shut down it's academy, they can easily afford it. Hopefully the FA look into the reasons why they would shut down their academy because if they want England to a force at the International stage, they can't have a scenario where a top division sides deems their academy surplus to requirements.

I know it's just one team and to my recollection, Huddersfield didn't exactly have a reputation for bringing through players, but surely the FA want as many teams as possible to be running youth academies and probably all the teams from the top 2 divisions.


I do agree. Rather than shut it down, you'd hope for further investment to bring it up to required standard. I don't think there is a limit to number of Cat 1s in the country is there?


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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by muirinho » 20 Sep 2017 10:13

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tidus_mi2 It seems ludicrous to me that a Premier League club would shut down it's academy, they can easily afford it. Hopefully the FA look into the reasons why they would shut down their academy because if they want England to a force at the International stage, they can't have a scenario where a top division sides deems their academy surplus to requirements.

I know it's just one team and to my recollection, Huddersfield didn't exactly have a reputation for bringing through players, but surely the FA want as many teams as possible to be running youth academies and probably all the teams from the top 2 divisions.


I do agree. Rather than shut it down, you'd hope for further investment to bring it up to required standard. I don't think there is a limit to number of Cat 1s in the country is there?

Dunno, but the top two "leagues" cover 24 teams, so maybe that's what they regarded as the natural limit.

thing is, because of promotion and relegation, the top 24 teams in the country are going to keep changing, so they can't enforce some sort of correlation between club league position and academy rating.

IMO, there probably should be some sort of minimum investment by PL teams in youth development. And if they don't run their own academy, they'd have to give that money to the nearest C1 or C2 academy. Think that would encourage teams to have their own, so they're not being forced to hand over money to rivals. But without the logistics of trying to get an academy set up for a club that is bouncing between PL and Championship

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by mambo3 » 20 Sep 2017 11:04

muirinho
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tidus_mi2 It seems ludicrous to me that a Premier League club would shut down it's academy, they can easily afford it. Hopefully the FA look into the reasons why they would shut down their academy because if they want England to a force at the International stage, they can't have a scenario where a top division sides deems their academy surplus to requirements.

I know it's just one team and to my recollection, Huddersfield didn't exactly have a reputation for bringing through players, but surely the FA want as many teams as possible to be running youth academies and probably all the teams from the top 2 divisions.


I do agree. Rather than shut it down, you'd hope for further investment to bring it up to required standard. I don't think there is a limit to number of Cat 1s in the country is there?

Dunno, but the top two "leagues" cover 24 teams, so maybe that's what they regarded as the natural limit.

thing is, because of promotion and relegation, the top 24 teams in the country are going to keep changing, so they can't enforce some sort of correlation between club league position and academy rating.

IMO, there probably should be some sort of minimum investment by PL teams in youth development. And if they don't run their own academy, they'd have to give that money to the nearest C1 or C2 academy. Think that would encourage teams to have their own, so they're not being forced to hand over money to rivals. But without the logistics of trying to get an academy set up for a club that is bouncing between PL and Championship


I wonder if this problem is just an English" thing or this kind of thing happens all over Europe?

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 20 Sep 2017 11:08

Hound
tidus_mi2 It seems ludicrous to me that a Premier League club would shut down it's academy, they can easily afford it. Hopefully the FA look into the reasons why they would shut down their academy because if they want England to a force at the International stage, they can't have a scenario where a top division sides deems their academy surplus to requirements.

I know it's just one team and to my recollection, Huddersfield didn't exactly have a reputation for bringing through players, but surely the FA want as many teams as possible to be running youth academies and probably all the teams from the top 2 divisions.


I do agree. Rather than shut it down, you'd hope for further investment to bring it up to required standard. I don't think there is a limit to number of Cat 1s in the country is there?


I'm pretty sure there is a limit to how many Cat 1s and it's pretty much a closed shop as long as you maintain the required standards. I may be wrong though.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by SCIAG » 20 Sep 2017 12:04

If there's a limit then it's silly. Can't imagine it would achieve anything except reducing the incentive that Cat 2 clubs had to improve their academies. I've never seen any notion that there is a limit before but I haven't actually read the relevant documents.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 20 Sep 2017 16:46

This is all my reading of the Academy system. I may be misunderstanding it but:

The whole EPPP thing is designed to benefit Premiership teams and the Football League only voted for it (46 to 22 with 4 non votes) because the FA threatened to withdraw funding for youth development (vote yes or we pull the trigger anyway). The FA are quite happy with their two 12 team academy leagues involving largely top flight clubs.

The criteria for Cat 1 are strictly infrastructural (costing roughly £2.5m a season, no small financial commitmment) and will therefore exclude the vast majority of Football League clubs.

I'm glad we're Cat 1 and that successive owners have committed to it but the thought process at the very top level of football that brought it about absolutely stinks, it's a big fcuk you to the vast majority of the Football League by the sport's governing body.

As I understand it, if we pinch an academy player off a Cat 3 club, we pay something like £5,000 for every year he was in their academy. Then we can pay further compensation per appearance for the first team, capped at a £1m and even then, that's only if he makes 100 appearances for us in the Premiership. If he makes 100 appearances for us in the Championship, it's capped at something like £250,000. Basically a payment for every 10 appearances up to 100, at a cost dependant on what level we are playing at.

Anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, this is merely my interpretation of what I've read on the internet and it's all a bit murky.

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by Hound » 20 Sep 2017 18:00

Interesting stuff. 2.5m a season? That's very hefty

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Re: Under 23"s Supposedly not ready for first team football.

by From Despair To Where? » 20 Sep 2017 21:07

Reading into it more some of the criteria for a Cat 1 academy, that £2.5m is just the annual running costs. To get Cat 1, among other things, you need:

A full time dedicated coach for every 8 academy players

A full sized floodlit pitch (this does not include the first team stadium)

A full size indoor pitch for all weather use.

A match analysis suite.

Etc etc etc. These are set up costs that could run into the millions before you even factor in the an running costs. It's mental. You can now begin to understand why clubs baulk at investing and just give up on their academies, they have absolutely no chance of competing. It's a policy designed to exclude and the more I read about it the more I realise just how fcuking lucky we are to be a smaller club feeding at the top table.

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