In or Out?

504 posts

Stam - In or Out?

In
100
42%
Out
106
44%
Shake it all about
16
7%
Ian Royal
17
7%
 
Total votes: 239
Nuremberg Royal
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Re: In or Out?

by Nuremberg Royal » 22 Oct 2017 19:36

biff
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Ascotexgunner His dutch mate Koeman looks like he won't survive. Just shows, you can have what looks like a great team on paper but put a dutch system in place, the opposition puts a high press in and your f#cked and ineffective. He will change nothing next week and it will be the same old sh+t.
De Boer and the dutch national team just show how unfashionable and easy to beat their system is.




So what’s changed regarding the Dutch system that was so successful for us (plus Koeman and Ajax for example) 6 months ago? Went out of fashion very quickly there...Did someone realise 40 odd years after Rinus Michaels invent it realise that all you need to do to counter is to press?


Is the ‘Spanish’ system the best again coz Pep is doing great for Man City, or should we playing the Argentina system as Spurs look great at the moment?

Said this a few times, it’s not the system or the fact it’s ‘Dutch’ it’s just we are not playing it well


A big problem noted by a few podcasts recently (more knowledgeable than I), is that dutch footballs big issue is its "jobs for the boys" mentality.
https://audioboom.com/posts/6365801-the ... ading-nigh 14:40 for the brilliant Simon Kuper's explanation.

Theyve been through it in all facets of their national team, and we're going through it to an extent here; preference for underperforming dutch players over untested colleagues etc. Its not so much the system (which system are we playing exactly?) is out of date, its the whole dutch footballing mindset. And Stam cant help but be a part of that.


I think u may be right.

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: In or Out?

by Snowflake Royal » 22 Oct 2017 19:39

Hound
Ascotexgunner His dutch mate Koeman looks like he won't survive. Just shows, you can have what looks like a great team on paper but put a dutch system in place, the opposition puts a high press in and your f#cked and ineffective. He will change nothing next week and it will be the same old sh+t.
De Boer and the dutch national team just show how unfashionable and easy to beat their system is.


So what’s changed regarding the Dutch system that was so successful for us (plus Koeman and Ajax for example) 6 months ago? Went out of fashion very quickly there...Did someone realise 40 odd years after Rinus Michaels invent it realise that all you need to do to counter is to press?


Is the ‘Spanish’ system the best again coz Pep is doing great for Man City, or should we playing the Argentina system as Spurs look great at the moment?

Said this a few times, it’s not the system or the fact it’s ‘Dutch’ it’s just we are not playing it well

This. So This.

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Y21
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Re: In or Out?

by Y21 » 22 Oct 2017 21:59

Hound
Ascotexgunner His dutch mate Koeman looks like he won't survive. Just shows, you can have what looks like a great team on paper but put a dutch system in place, the opposition puts a high press in and your f#cked and ineffective. He will change nothing next week and it will be the same old sh+t.
De Boer and the dutch national team just show how unfashionable and easy to beat their system is.


So what’s changed regarding the Dutch system that was so successful for us (plus Koeman and Ajax for example) 6 months ago? Went out of fashion very quickly there...Did someone realise 40 odd years after Rinus Michaels invent it realise that all you need to do to counter is to press?


Is the ‘Spanish’ system the best again coz Pep is doing great for Man City, or should we playing the Argentina system as Spurs look great at the moment?

Said this a few times, it’s not the system or the fact it’s ‘Dutch’ it’s just we are not playing it well


Was it that successful for us? It got us third, woop de doop, but ultimately failed when it mattered most. It is a tedious, negative and pedestrian system that is way too easy to counter. As we are seeing this season, as everyone has remembered that if you press a negative, passing side, you will beat them. Our players (with perhaps the exception of Blackett who I am still not convinced has a future as a professional footballer) are better than this. Get them playing in a faster, maybe more direct and positive fashion and I am sure we can progress up the table.

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Re: In or Out?

by WAZZOCK » 22 Oct 2017 22:24

Y21
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Ascotexgunner His dutch mate Koeman looks like he won't survive. Just shows, you can have what looks like a great team on paper but put a dutch system in place, the opposition puts a high press in and your f#cked and ineffective. He will change nothing next week and it will be the same old sh+t.
De Boer and the dutch national team just show how unfashionable and easy to beat their system is.


So what’s changed regarding the Dutch system that was so successful for us (plus Koeman and Ajax for example) 6 months ago? Went out of fashion very quickly there...Did someone realise 40 odd years after Rinus Michaels invent it realise that all you need to do to counter is to press?


Is the ‘Spanish’ system the best again coz Pep is doing great for Man City, or should we playing the Argentina system as Spurs look great at the moment?

Said this a few times, it’s not the system or the fact it’s ‘Dutch’ it’s just we are not playing it well


Was it that successful for us? It got us third


So, yes is the answer then.

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Maneki Neko
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Re: In or Out?

by Maneki Neko » 22 Oct 2017 22:59

his oversight of a predator/striker up front when the money was there is a massive, massive amateurish mistake,
he said he wanted one, we tried to sign one. Blaming him for that is a bit wrong
Loads of other shit that's his fault, but that, less so.
Imo


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Snowflake Royal
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Re: In or Out?

by Snowflake Royal » 22 Oct 2017 23:15

Maneki Neko
his oversight of a predator/striker up front when the money was there is a massive, massive amateurish mistake,
he said he wanted one, we tried to sign one. Blaming him for that is a bit wrong
Loads of other shit that's his fault, but that, less so.
Imo

Quite.

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Re: In or Out?

by SCIAG » 22 Oct 2017 23:24

Hound
Ascotexgunner His dutch mate Koeman looks like he won't survive. Just shows, you can have what looks like a great team on paper but put a dutch system in place, the opposition puts a high press in and your f#cked and ineffective. He will change nothing next week and it will be the same old sh+t.
De Boer and the dutch national team just show how unfashionable and easy to beat their system is.


So what’s changed regarding the Dutch system that was so successful for us (plus Koeman and Ajax for example) 6 months ago? Went out of fashion very quickly there...Did someone realise 40 odd years after Rinus Michaels invent it realise that all you need to do to counter is to press?


Is the ‘Spanish’ system the best again coz Pep is doing great for Man City, or should we playing the Argentina system as Spurs look great at the moment?

Said this a few times, it’s not the system or the fact it’s ‘Dutch’ it’s just we are not playing it well

Particularly irritates me when people (not you) try to make out like the Dutch and Spanish systems are different. Barcelona's style, as perfected and spread by Guardiola, is just Cruyff's vision.

The Dutch passing game is used by the team currently top of the Premier League. But it's obviously impossible to make it work because Palace sacked a Dutch guy after six games :|

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: In or Out?

by Snowflake Royal » 22 Oct 2017 23:37

It's almost like people don't understand systems and styles of play, seeing only the quality of implementation of the system as the system itself.

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Re: In or Out?

by Hound » 23 Oct 2017 06:37

SCIAG
Hound
Ascotexgunner His dutch mate Koeman looks like he won't survive. Just shows, you can have what looks like a great team on paper but put a dutch system in place, the opposition puts a high press in and your f#cked and ineffective. He will change nothing next week and it will be the same old sh+t.
De Boer and the dutch national team just show how unfashionable and easy to beat their system is.


So what’s changed regarding the Dutch system that was so successful for us (plus Koeman and Ajax for example) 6 months ago? Went out of fashion very quickly there...Did someone realise 40 odd years after Rinus Michaels invent it realise that all you need to do to counter is to press?


Is the ‘Spanish’ system the best again coz Pep is doing great for Man City, or should we playing the Argentina system as Spurs look great at the moment?

Said this a few times, it’s not the system or the fact it’s ‘Dutch’ it’s just we are not playing it well

Particularly irritates me when people (not you) try to make out like the Dutch and Spanish systems are different. Barcelona's style, as perfected and spread by Guardiola, is just Cruyff's vision.

The Dutch passing game is used by the team currently top of the Premier League. But it's obviously impossible to make it work because Palace sacked a Dutch guy after six games :|


Yep exactly. And yeah fully agree Pep uses the basis of the total football system, but was just making a point :)


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Maneki Neko
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Re: In or Out?

by Maneki Neko » 23 Oct 2017 08:59

I think peps Barcelona may have used total football as a basis, but then evolved it almost beyond recognition

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maffff
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Re: In or Out?

by maffff » 23 Oct 2017 09:22

Y21 Was it that successful for us? It got us third, woop de doop, but ultimately failed when it mattered most.

The system missed two penalties?

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Re: In or Out?

by Steve_Upper_West » 23 Oct 2017 09:35

maffff
Y21 Was it that successful for us? It got us third, woop de doop, but ultimately failed when it mattered most.

The system missed two penalties?


No..... 'The System' resulted in a penalty shoot-out, after we showed little ambition to win the game in 90 minutes :wink:

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genome
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Re: In or Out?

by genome » 23 Oct 2017 09:36

Maneki Neko I think peps Barcelona may have used total football as a basis, but then evolved it almost beyond recognition


Well there was movement off the ball for starters


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Re: In or Out?

by genome » 23 Oct 2017 09:38

And by the way, comparing Man City's implementation to Reading's is foolhardy - Man City (as Barcelona) have world class players whereas we have Championship level players :|

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Re: In or Out?

by holsgrove breaks a leg » 23 Oct 2017 09:57

I’d have mark mcghee’s passing style of football over stams project any day of the week. McGhee got us switching play from one side to the other(Darius at the back in particular and completely different to short ineffective tappy passes) and with precision and pace which caused opposition players to move out of position to in the middle to deal with our centre mids. It also meant there was a meaningful relationship between full back and wingers.

You can be a passing team with pace and direction. Stam seems so entrenched in his philosophy that players seem to be playing ever more as individuals in their own zones and are afraid to go forward as a unit.granted it was 1992-1994 where this really occurred but it serves to show what can be achieved with the right blend of players,playing as a unit and how passing doesn’t have to mean attrition. Playing stams way puts more pressure on players as if things aren’t going our way there is little in the way of tactical manoeuvring to force the issue.

I also keep wondering about the squad he has put together,it is far too large,not competitive enough and full of players in similar positions. Oh for the days of a smaller and settled squad. Stam did a great job to get his squad to a third placed position last season but in all honesty I don’t really know how given the above this occurred.

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Re: In or Out?

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 23 Oct 2017 10:26

holsgrove breaks a leg I’d have mark mcghee’s passing style of football over stams project any day of the week. McGhee got us switching play from one side to the other(Darius at the back in particular and completely different to short ineffective tappy passes) and with precision and pace which caused opposition players to move out of position to in the middle to deal with our centre mids. It also meant there was a meaningful relationship between full back and wingers.

You can be a passing team with pace and direction. Stam seems so entrenched in his philosophy that players seem to be playing ever more as individuals in their own zones and are afraid to go forward as a unit.granted it was 1992-1994 where this really occurred but it serves to show what can be achieved with the right blend of players,playing as a unit and how passing doesn’t have to mean attrition. Playing stams way puts more pressure on players as if things aren’t going our way there is little in the way of tactical manoeuvring to force the issue.

I also keep wondering about the squad he has put together,it is far too large,not competitive enough and full of players in similar positions. Oh for the days of a smaller and settled squad. Stam did a great job to get his squad to a third placed position last season but in all honesty I don’t really know how given the above this occurred.


Still the best football I've seen us play under MM in my 28 years being a Reading fan. Shame the FSB had to oxf*rd it all up!

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Re: In or Out?

by Big Foot » 23 Oct 2017 10:39

biff
Hound
Ascotexgunner His dutch mate Koeman looks like he won't survive. Just shows, you can have what looks like a great team on paper but put a dutch system in place, the opposition puts a high press in and your f#cked and ineffective. He will change nothing next week and it will be the same old sh+t.
De Boer and the dutch national team just show how unfashionable and easy to beat their system is.


So what’s changed regarding the Dutch system that was so successful for us (plus Koeman and Ajax for example) 6 months ago? Went out of fashion very quickly there...Did someone realise 40 odd years after Rinus Michaels invent it realise that all you need to do to counter is to press?


Is the ‘Spanish’ system the best again coz Pep is doing great for Man City, or should we playing the Argentina system as Spurs look great at the moment?

Said this a few times, it’s not the system or the fact it’s ‘Dutch’ it’s just we are not playing it well


A big problem noted by a few podcasts recently (more knowledgeable than I), is that dutch footballs big issue is its "jobs for the boys" mentality.
https://audioboom.com/posts/6365801-the ... ading-nigh 14:40 for the brilliant Simon Kuper's explanation.

Theyve been through it in all facets of their national team, and we're going through it to an extent here; preference for underperforming dutch players over untested colleagues etc. Its not so much the system (which system are we playing exactly?) is out of date, its the whole dutch footballing mindset. And Stam cant help but be a part of that.
Have to agree with this - how Pelle Clement gets anywhere near our matchday squad is an absolute joke

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leon
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Re: In or Out?

by leon » 23 Oct 2017 10:55

holsgrove breaks a leg I’d have mark mcghee’s passing style of football over stams project any day of the week. McGhee got us switching play from one side to the other(Darius at the back in particular and completely different to short ineffective tappy passes) and with precision and pace which caused opposition players to move out of position to in the middle to deal with our centre mids. It also meant there was a meaningful relationship between full back and wingers.

You can be a passing team with pace and direction. Stam seems so entrenched in his philosophy that players seem to be playing ever more as individuals in their own zones and are afraid to go forward as a unit.granted it was 1992-1994 where this really occurred but it serves to show what can be achieved with the right blend of players,playing as a unit and how passing doesn’t have to mean attrition. Playing stams way puts more pressure on players as if things aren’t going our way there is little in the way of tactical manoeuvring to force the issue.

I also keep wondering about the squad he has put together,it is far too large,not competitive enough and full of players in similar positions. Oh for the days of a smaller and settled squad. Stam did a great job to get his squad to a third placed position last season but in all honesty I don’t really know how given the above this occurred.


My thoughts entirely. Possession passing football does not equal the crap we are being served.

And have pretty much since Adkins was appointed.

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Re: In or Out?

by BR2 » 23 Oct 2017 11:24

A lot of talk on here about systems but I think it is more about the players.
Centre-backs and defenders play in those positions because of what they are-under Stam these players have more of the ball than anybody else but are least equipped to be doing anything with it.
As I see it, a team is driven by the midfield players who are there to create chances for the front men and score a few goals themselves.

I would like to see less of McShane, Blackett or Moore on the ball and much, much more of Kelly and Swift picking the ball up from the defenders and quickly moving it forward and us playing much more in the opposition half.
I wonder if Stam himself felt starved of the ball in his playing days and is trying to make up for it by making sure that our central defenders have more of the ball than anybody else in the team. :wink:

Let the defenders concentrate more on what they are there for, i.e. to defend and not waste time and mental energy doing what they are not very good at,i.e. making telling passes-that way, in letting the creative players create, might lead to us at least creating more goalscoring opportunities even if so few of our current squad seem capable of putting the ball in the back of the net.
Our goals-for record this season is abysmal and something has to be done-if it is to be a change of manager, who himself is too stubborn to change anything, then so be it..

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Re: In or Out?

by Hound » 23 Oct 2017 11:41

Agree with that BR2. Need to get Swift back in there, and I'd rather see Kelly than Edwards. Get those boys back in there and on the ball feeding it to Barrow and Aluko who are playing properly on the wing, feeding Yann/Dadi at #9. Its an obvious one for me

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