The "reward youth" debate

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by From Despair To Where? » 13 Nov 2017 10:42

So the solution is an academy league parachuted in at Step 5, played in front of crowds a fraction of that currently at Step 5 make the slightest bit of difference? Man Utd or Chelsea will still stockpile young players, still farm them off to higher placed teams and the reward at the pinnacle of Non League Football will be a promotion to playing youth football.

Clubs don't have to punt on foreign signings who aren't even internationals. Apparently, there's a network of young talented home grown players desperate for the opportunity for first team football.


Kudos for being a vocal supporter of our academy but that is a ridiculous idea.
Last edited by From Despair To Where? on 13 Nov 2017 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by Nameless » 13 Nov 2017 10:43

SCIAG
Sutekh Bring back proper reserve team football.

Would make no difference. Clubs are already allowed to field 3 overage players + GK, but very rarely hit that.

From Despair To Where?
Snowflake Royal Absolutely No.



Exactly what I thought. This country has a long established league structure that works

By what measure?

Our leading clubs struggle to compete in European competitions. Our national team gets worse with every passing tournament. In the lower leagues, standards are low, prices are high, managers are still sacked as a matter of routine and most clubs have extremely perilous financial situations. Attendances are falling. Clubs have to spend large amounts of money signing players from abroad who often aren't even internationals. I'd say that the current system is doing very badly.


Not sure forcing a division of teams with no support base at a level below what you describe as a ‘low’standard would achieve though.
I think once you look at the practicalities of putting academy sides into the current league structure you would run a mile
The answer should be to limit the number of overseas players in squads/teams but that can’t happen.
Your list of ills is interesting and much of it is down to the greed of players and the obscene amount of money in the game. I think the system has done incredibly well to survive as well as it has with the horrendous effects Sky has brought....

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by John Smith » 13 Nov 2017 11:29

SCIAG Our leading clubs struggle to compete in European competitions. Our national team gets worse with every passing tournament. In the lower leagues, standards are low, prices are high, managers are still sacked as a matter of routine and most clubs have extremely perilous financial situations. Attendances are falling. Clubs have to spend large amounts of money signing players from abroad who often aren't even internationals. I'd say that the current system is doing very badly.

You haven't posted on here in a while.

Try and make it even longer than last time if you're going to insist on writing utter drivel like the above. Go and post on the Norwich City forum or something like that.

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by From Despair To Where? » 13 Nov 2017 13:42

Having said that, I can definitely see how the national team has benefitted greatly from our academy giving first team opportunities to Alex Pearce, Jem Karacan, Simon Church, Hal Robson Kanu, Gylfi Sigurdsson, Simon Cox, Jake Taylor and Liam Kelly.

Also, a lot of these non international foreigners come into the lower divisions in the much the same way as Adam Federici; pitching up at endless trials, hoping to impress.

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by Sutekh » 13 Nov 2017 14:06

SCIAG
From Despair To Where?
Snowflake Royal Absolutely No.



Exactly what I thought. This country has a long established league structure that works

By what measure?

Our leading clubs struggle to compete in European competitions. Our national team gets worse with every passing tournament. In the lower leagues, standards are low, prices are high, managers are still sacked as a matter of routine and most clubs have extremely perilous financial situations. Attendances are falling. Clubs have to spend large amounts of money signing players from abroad who often aren't even internationals. I'd say that the current system is doing very badly.


Agreed. It worked OK before the arrival of the PL on the scene then, for some reason, it just slowly dissipated into the general depressing malaise we get now.

Buy hey, you can watch a load of bright talent from other countries in the "best league" in the world every week so it must be all for the better really :roll:


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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by Nameless » 13 Nov 2017 14:20

From Despair To Where? Having said that, I can definitely see how the national team has benefitted greatly from our academy giving first team opportunities to Alex Pearce, Jem Karacan, Simon Church, Hal Robson Kanu, Gylfi Sigurdsson, Simon Cox, Jake Taylor and Liam Kelly.

Also, a lot of these non international foreigners come into the lower divisions in the much the same way as Adam Federici; pitching up at endless trials, hoping to impress.


We’ve more recently had players from the Academy win World Cups with England of course !
And of the players you listed all bar 2 were England qualified.....

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by SCIAG » 13 Nov 2017 14:21

From Despair To Where? So the solution is an academy league parachuted in at Step 5, played in front of crowds a fraction of that currently at Step 5 make the slightest bit of difference? Man Utd or Chelsea will still stockpile young players, still farm them off to higher placed teams and the reward at the pinnacle of Non League Football will be a promotion to playing youth football.

There isn't going to be an "academy league" because after a couple of years they'll be spread throughout steps 3-7 and eventually maybe 2-8. The process of bringing our system up to scratch might mean a few years of mostly academy teams playing each other and a few Conference teams not getting promoted straight to League 2. Oh well.

You could reduce the pain by combining the introduction of a new division with a reduction in the size of each league. 24 teams is much higher than other countries use, and many people in the game have suggested that it causes fatigue and injury and reduces the quality of play. Spread the teams out over an extra division and fill in the gaps at the bottom with academy sides. I don't think Reading would directly benefit from that, but the English game probably would.

As for attendances - last season Everton U23s had a higher average attendance than almost every National League club. If all matches were open to the public then you'd miss the really well supported teams like Tranmere and Wrexham but I don't think median attendance would drop.

It works in other countries. No reason why it wouldn't work here. We shouldn't let our traditions hold us back.

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by From Despair To Where? » 13 Nov 2017 14:24

True, but I'm talking about players who've played a significant number of first team games or, in the case of Taylor, scored a league goal.

Who's to say that Southwood or Loader will play for England or won't find an grandparent who gives them an alternative route into international football?

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by Nameless » 13 Nov 2017 14:39

SCIAG
It works in other countries. No reason why it wouldn't work here. We shouldn't let our traditions hold us back.

Talk us through the ways it has worked in Holland. Both in terms of continuing the success of their club sides and the performance of their national side....

In terms of there being ‘no reason why it wouldn’t work here’ that is first of all a rubbish basis for an argument and secondly it’s clearly untrue. There’s no real reason it would work. There seems no appetite for it anywhere, there’s no reason why clubs would take it seriously and it wouldn’t address any of the perceived problems in the game.


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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by Nameless » 13 Nov 2017 14:41

From Despair To Where? True, but I'm talking about players who've played a significant number of first team games or, in the case of Taylor, scored a league goal.

Who's to say that Southwood or Loader will play for England or won't find an grandparent who gives them an alternative route into international football?


No one can guarantee either, but we can do no more than produce the players. If they opt out pursue other options then what can the Club do ?
2 of our current top young players have opted to play for countries other than England despite being born in England. Playing in division 4 wouldn’t have changed that....

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by SCIAG » 13 Nov 2017 15:45

Nameless
SCIAG
It works in other countries. No reason why it wouldn't work here. We shouldn't let our traditions hold us back.

Talk us through the ways it has worked in Holland. Both in terms of continuing the success of their club sides and the performance of their national side....

Sure. A country with a population less than a third of England's has a much better record on the international stage. Since 1966, we've got to one semi-final (on home soil). The Dutch have got to three World Cup finals (including 2010) and won Euro 88. Their clubs are never going to compete because their best players get bought out from under them by the big boys in England, Italy, Spain and Germany but they still do reasonably well. Oh and they've also produced the likes of Jan Vertonghen, Toby Alderweirld and Christian Eriksen for other countries.

What about Spain - relative latecomers thanks to Franco, smaller population, not as wealthy, but a much better record? Barcelona building a team out of former B-team players? Germany? France? The issue isn't grassroots coaching methods, because we're competitive at youth level, but some failing in our ability to turn promising 18-year-olds into first team regulars.

In terms of there being ‘no reason why it wouldn’t work here’ that is first of all a rubbish basis for an argument

It isn't the basis of my argument. The counter-argument seems to be "hmmm I don't like it".
and secondly it’s clearly untrue. There’s no real reason it would work. There seems no appetite for it anywhere, there’s no reason why clubs would take it seriously and it wouldn’t address any of the perceived problems in the game.

Several top managers have called for it, clubs take the current competitions seriously, and it would address the issue of young players only being able to get first-team experience if they leave the world-class coaching environments to play with mediocre journeymen.

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Re: The "reward youth" debate

by From Despair To Where? » 13 Nov 2017 19:14

Surely one of the reasons for players going out on loan is to get them out of the comfort zone of "world class facilities" and seeing how how they adapt to different environments. By 17-18, you be should be coaching them to adapt to their environment tactically and emotionally and preparing them for a career in football, whatever the level.

If the player is good enough and mentally prepared enough, they will get opportunities at their parent club, but at the end of the day, 75% of these players will not get a sniff of the premiership, and as much as the academy is there to produce first team players, their duty of care lies in preparing every player for whatever career they have after leaving the academy.

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