Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

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TiagoIlori
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Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by TiagoIlori » 16 Nov 2017 05:29

Personally I can only see John Swift cutting it, Liam Kelly may well have premier league technical ability as some people claim but he needs time to adapt to men’s football, unfortunately the English leagues just don’t seem to suit him whatsoever. Not convinced Moore can manage the step up(seems to at times do similar mistakes to what Blackett or Gunter do that 99% Reading fans conveniently choose to ignore) and Barrow is too inconsistent to be classed as premier league quality for me. I’m aware we have a young squad, and that Tevreden’s vision is only a year out of 3 in so I’m not in meltdown mode about if we somehow go up this season already :lol:

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Elm Park Kid » 16 Nov 2017 09:18

These days I would say it's more about having a 'Premier league' team rather than individual players. You need a group of people that understand how each other play and are completely committed to their goal . You could take half of Watford's first team and mix it with half of Newcastle's and it would get relegated without a doubt.

I would actually look at it in terms of positions in which we clearly lacking. LB for sure, attacking threat from midfield definitely, a threat upfront other than Kermogant is obvious.

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Hound » 16 Nov 2017 09:32

It wouldn't be a priority to replace the following imo, not sure if that means they are prem league quality exactly. As said difficult to make that judgement until they played there:

Mannone, Gunter, Obita, Moore, Ilori, Swift, Bacuna. Maybe Barrow, Kelly and Aluko.

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by muirinho » 16 Nov 2017 09:34

Elm Park Kid These days I would say it's more about having a 'Premier league' team rather than individual players. You need a group of people that understand how each other play and are completely committed to their goal . You could take half of Watford's first team and mix it with half of Newcastle's and it would get relegated without a doubt.

I would actually look at it in terms of positions in which we clearly lacking. LB for sure, attacking threat from midfield definitely, a threat upfront other than Kermogant is obvious.


Agree with this - before Leicester won the PL, think most would have described all of their team as Championship quality.

You need decent Championship players, with a sprinkling of magic to make things happen. Just 2 or 3 players with class, in a team that all understand each other, makes a huge difference.

TiagoIlori Not convinced Moore can manage the step up(seems to at times do similar mistakes to what Blackett or Gunter do that 99% Reading fans conveniently choose to ignore)


Also, please note - PL defenders make mistakes too. I think if you're watching PL football without the emotional investment of it being your team, you'll notice the mistakes less. But they are certainly there.

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Sutekh » 16 Nov 2017 09:54

Better to ask if Reading were promoted and survived their first season back in the PL how many of the current Reading squad would be here to see that second season ... I would tentatively suggest that that SQUAD of 25 would still include

Swift
Moore
Ilori
Obita
Kelly
Barrow
Bacuna
Mannone

It also wouldn't surprise me to still see Gunter and McShane on the books as well plus, obviously, any of the youngsters that may fulfil potential e.g. Rinomhota, Watson, Richards, Loader, Smith, Holsgrove etc.

How many of them would be regular starters of course is another question entirely and it certainly shows Reading still need to make heavy investment on the playing side in order to be competitive at that level.

But then what would we have said to the same question if it had been asked in November 2005?


TiagoIlori
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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by TiagoIlori » 16 Nov 2017 11:53

Elm Park Kid These days I would say it's more about having a 'Premier league' team rather than individual players. You need a group of people that understand how each other play and are completely committed to their goal . You could take half of Watford's first team and mix it with half of Newcastle's and it would get relegated without a doubt.

I would actually look at it in terms of positions in which we clearly lacking. LB for sure, attacking threat from midfield definitely, a threat upfront other than Kermogant is obvious.

Oh yes having a good team is important, shown by Sheffield Wednesday who had arguably the second best team in the league yet only managed 5th place. It’s just, as you’ve implied, there would be positions that need significant strengthening and in a sense, sometimes you need players that are able to produce moments of magic- we simply didn’t have enough of that in 12/13 as once Roberts dropped off the entire team did, I’d argue it’s very much the same with Moore here

TiagoIlori
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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by TiagoIlori » 16 Nov 2017 11:58

muirinho
Elm Park Kid These days I would say it's more about having a 'Premier league' team rather than individual players. You need a group of people that understand how each other play and are completely committed to their goal . You could take half of Watford's first team and mix it with half of Newcastle's and it would get relegated without a doubt.

I would actually look at it in terms of positions in which we clearly lacking. LB for sure, attacking threat from midfield definitely, a threat upfront other than Kermogant is obvious.


Agree with this - before Leicester won the PL, think most would have described all of their team as Championship quality.

You need decent Championship players, with a sprinkling of magic to make things happen. Just 2 or 3 players with class, in a team that all understand each other, makes a huge difference.

TiagoIlori Not convinced Moore can manage the step up(seems to at times do similar mistakes to what Blackett or Gunter do that 99% Reading fans conveniently choose to ignore)


Also, please note - PL defenders make mistakes too. I think if you're watching PL football without the emotional investment of it being your team, you'll notice the mistakes less. But they are certainly there.


Oh of course everyone makes mistakes, there’s a reason Lionel Messi still turns up to training. It’s just about limiting those mistakes, a lot of mistakes we make will obviously get punished more harshly in the premier league, that dangerous back pass to Al-Habsi at old Trafford springs to mind

TiagoIlori
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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by TiagoIlori » 16 Nov 2017 12:14

Sutekh Better to ask if Reading were promoted and survived their first season back in the PL how many of the current Reading squad would be here to see that second season ... I would tentatively suggest that that SQUAD of 25 would still include

Swift
Moore
Ilori
Obita
Kelly
Barrow
Bacuna
Mannone

It also wouldn't surprise me to still see Gunter and McShane on the books as well plus, obviously, any of the youngsters that may fulfil potential e.g. Rinomhota, Watson, Richards, Loader, Smith, Holsgrove etc.

How many of them would be regular starters of course is another question entirely and it certainly shows Reading still need to make heavy investment on the playing side in order to be competitive at that level.

But then what would we have said to the same question if it had been asked in November 2005?

It was at a different time though, teams only begun to spend millions so the gap wasn’t as great as it is today, in direct answer to your question though, a few pundits at least(ironically one of them was Jason Roberts) backed us to go up, whilst I don’t recall a single non-Reading fan saying we’d go up this season. Also hadn’t lost since opening day and we suddenly looked like we were walking to the title. To me that’s the difference

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Hendo » 16 Nov 2017 12:36

TiagoIlori Personally I can only see John Swift cutting it, Liam Kelly may well have premier league technical ability as some people claim but he needs time to adapt to men’s football, unfortunately the English leagues just don’t seem to suit him whatsoever. Not convinced Moore can manage the step up(seems to at times do similar mistakes to what Blackett or Gunter do that 99% Reading fans conveniently choose to ignore)


And this is where I stopped reading/taking any real interest.

Moore is by far our best defender and to pool him in with Blackett is pretty :|


TiagoIlori
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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by TiagoIlori » 16 Nov 2017 12:47

Hendo
TiagoIlori Personally I can only see John Swift cutting it, Liam Kelly may well have premier league technical ability as some people claim but he needs time to adapt to men’s football, unfortunately the English leagues just don’t seem to suit him whatsoever. Not convinced Moore can manage the step up(seems to at times do similar mistakes to what Blackett or Gunter do that 99% Reading fans conveniently choose to ignore)


And this is where I stopped reading/taking any real interest.

Moore is by far our best defender and to pool him in with Blackett is pretty :|

Never claimed Blackett was as good as Moore, if it was implied then no I still wouldn’t claim it. However, I do think he can make mistakes that are conveniently overlooked. Maybe it’s just me, I love Moore(favourite defender since Ian Harte) it’s just that I can’t help but think had Blackett or Gunter missed that penalty instead theyd have got death threats, so I feel he doesn’t always get his fair share of criticism, seems very common for fans to not say anything negative about players they really like nowadays

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by SCIAG » 16 Nov 2017 13:10

Swift at his best is comfortably Premier League quality. Needs to find some consistency. If he does then he'll take a team up.

I don't think Kelly has quite as high a ceiling but he's the other one I'd be fairly confident about stepping up. Don't think his size is an issue when the likes of Cazorla and Kante flourish in the PL. I think his pace is the bigger concern.

The likes of Moore, Gunter, Blackett, Ilori, Beerens, Mannone, Bacuna, Edwards, Aluko, Kermorgant, and Barrow have been tried at PL level and found wanting. They may do better with a few extra years of experience, some more confidence, and a side that supports them. I suspect Moore and Barrow would probably be fine, and Ilori and Bacuna would have a good chance, but the others would probably have their weaknesses exposed.

Obita also has significant weaknesses, but if it wasn't for the injury I think he could probably look respectable in a confident side.

Evans could be a good squad member, but Joey would be exposed. McCleary has issues with fitness and consistency; if we'd gone up last season and he'd been fit then I think he'd be flourishing, but now it will be harder for him.

The likes of JDB, Mendes, Quinn, Popa, and Harriott would probably have to go, but who knows. There'd obviously be no place for Wieser, Gravenbech, or Meite.

We certainly wouldn't be able to get away with using Smith or Rinomhota and we'd be asking a lot of Richards. Difficult time for Holsgrove or McIntyre to step up but players do it every year.

I'd want three new defenders, at least one central midfielder, a winger, and two strikers. A goalkeeper would be useful.

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John Smith
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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by John Smith » 16 Nov 2017 14:43

SCIAG We certainly wouldn't be able to get away with using Smith or Rinomhota and we'd be asking a lot of Richards. Difficult time for Holsgrove or McIntyre to step up but players do it every year.

You definitely have lost the plot entirely mate - it's not the 90's anymore!

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Silver Fox » 16 Nov 2017 15:08

Sutekh Better to ask if Reading were promoted and survived their first season back in the PL how many of the current Reading squad would be here to see that second season ... I would tentatively suggest that that SQUAD of 25 would still include

Swift
Moore
Ilori
Obita
Kelly
Barrow
Bacuna
Mannone

It also wouldn't surprise me to still see Gunter and McShane on the books as well plus, obviously, any of the youngsters that may fulfil potential e.g. Rinomhota, Watson, Richards, Loader, Smith, Holsgrove etc.

How many of them would be regular starters of course is another question entirely and it certainly shows Reading still need to make heavy investment on the playing side in order to be competitive at that level.

But then what would we have said to the same question if it had been asked in November 2005?


So much 'greed to this, with the last line standing out in particular. I'd also add that we don't need players to be premier league quality until we're actually in the premier league.


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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by muirinho » 16 Nov 2017 15:51

TiagoIlori Never claimed Blackett was as good as Moore, if it was implied then no I still wouldn’t claim it. However, I do think he can make mistakes that are conveniently overlooked. Maybe it’s just me, I love Moore(favourite defender since Ian Harte) it’s just that I can’t help but think had Blackett or Gunter missed that penalty instead theyd have got death threats, so I feel he doesn’t always get his fair share of criticism, seems very common for fans to not say anything negative about players they really like nowadays


Think that's definitely true - it's lucky that it was Obita and Moore who missed. Macca might have got away with it as well. but there's a shedload of players that would have got an awful drubbing for the same mistake. Same when it comes to conceding penalties or free-kicks.

It's not fair, but that's just the way it is.

So I get you not wanting to put Moore on a pedestal.
Never-the-less, I think he's got a decent shout of being a bottom-half PL defender.

If you saw any of the Ireland-Denmark game, for instance, I think Blackett (let alone Gunter or Obita) would have compared pretty favourably to Stephen Ward - despite the fact that Ward is in his sixth season as a PL defender.

If Ward is a PL player, then Moore certainly can be.

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Victor Meldrew » 16 Nov 2017 16:50

I am with those who say it is the team as a collective (e.g Burnley, Brighton etc) that matters rather than just individual players.
Swift IMHO is probably the only one that might be good enough.
Mannone had a catastrophic game shipping 8(?) last season in one game looking like a clown but it has reminded me of Marcus who was thought to be a joke keeper by Fulham fans and yet proved a star for us even in the Premier League-so far Mannone has exceeded most people's expectations.

At the moment we are a long way off having a Premier team let alone Premier players but it just took a few astute signings and a great team spirit under Coppell to make it and I look forward to the day when we are up there again .

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Marino13 » 17 Nov 2017 09:52

imo it's always hard to say. some players never really stand out
at championship level but do a good job and can do the same
at premier league level.

mariappa springs to mind.

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Re: Which of our players are genuinely premier league quality?

by Kitsondinho » 18 Nov 2017 11:24

I always find this debate a bit strange for two reasons. The first is that outside the top 5/6 teams, the remaining 14/15 teams are virtually at the same standard. As others have said, most of the players could be moved from one squad to another. It seems to come down to organisation and management in so many cases. A case in point being Swansea, a few years ago they were the model of how to get promoted and stay there. Now they are a basket case who are likely to go down.
The second point is the ridiculous myth that promoted teams struggle to stay up. Yes more promoted teams don’t stay up than do, but this nonsense that staying up or even thriving (a la 2006) is impossible drives me mad. Many teams have lasted more than one year in the PL and will continue to do so, despite Sky’s narrative. I’d be interested to know how many teams have gone down in their 2nd or 3rd year in the PL. That seems to be when the daft spending/aiming for Europe rubbish seems to kick in.

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