Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

158 posts
User avatar
Maneki Neko
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 20994
Joined: 06 Jul 2015 00:19
Location: JAPAN! fcuk you all.

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Maneki Neko » 11 Sep 2018 16:37

St Pauli wrote:Success on the pitch/entertaining football would bring more back, and improve the atmosphere, but personally though I'm not sure I would for the reasons Mags gives.

There is a problem with football generally though. It's too expensive for what it is. As a result the young male teenage fan base will shrink in most clubs year in year out. When you consider all the other entertainment out there for teens, most of it free, or very cheap, and if not, easily obtainable illegally for free with zero chance of getting caught, then shelling out the cost of travel too and entry to a match turns off the young.


tbf isnt it a tenner a game for up to 24 year olds and 100 pound for a season ticket for teens
that's not massively restrictive

Zip
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1813
Joined: 30 Dec 2017 17:39

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Zip » 11 Sep 2018 17:58

Maneki Neko wrote:
St Pauli wrote:Success on the pitch/entertaining football would bring more back, and improve the atmosphere, but personally though I'm not sure I would for the reasons Mags gives.

There is a problem with football generally though. It's too expensive for what it is. As a result the young male teenage fan base will shrink in most clubs year in year out. When you consider all the other entertainment out there for teens, most of it free, or very cheap, and if not, easily obtainable illegally for free with zero chance of getting caught, then shelling out the cost of travel too and entry to a match turns off the young.


tbf isnt it a tenner a game for up to 24 year olds and 100 pound for a season ticket for teens
that's not massively restrictive


Yes it’s great value for younger people. Just to add it’s only £59 for my 15 year old. I don’t think it’s money related at those prices.

Hiram K Hackenbacker
Member
Posts: 325
Joined: 29 May 2008 08:56
Location: Blackpool

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Hiram K Hackenbacker » 12 Sep 2018 13:04

Zip wrote:
Maneki Neko wrote:
St Pauli wrote:Success on the pitch/entertaining football would bring more back, and improve the atmosphere, but personally though I'm not sure I would for the reasons Mags gives.

There is a problem with football generally though. It's too expensive for what it is. As a result the young male teenage fan base will shrink in most clubs year in year out. When you consider all the other entertainment out there for teens, most of it free, or very cheap, and if not, easily obtainable illegally for free with zero chance of getting caught, then shelling out the cost of travel too and entry to a match turns off the young.


tbf isnt it a tenner a game for up to 24 year olds and 100 pound for a season ticket for teens
that's not massively restrictive


Yes it’s great value for younger people. Just to add it’s only £59 for my 15 year old. I don’t think it’s money related at those prices.

I agree

User avatar
Wimb
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5747
Joined: 21 Nov 2005 10:43
Location: www.thetilehurstend.com

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Wimb » 14 Sep 2018 12:02

bobby1413 wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:Players only want to talk when things are rosey. All of our squad are hiders unfortunately, not one of them can front it up.


I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.

Personally I thought we did as good a job in the circumstances and I give the club credit for putting trust in me to ask some tougher questions where appropriate. I didn't feel censored but I'm wise enough to know the rough limits of what I could ask and what a player was likely to answer.

The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.

In the wider context, as others have pointed out, players often can't win. The Meyler example being the most recent but we've seen the likes of McCleary, Karacan and others all laid into and have their comments and social exchanges blown up by certain 'fans' the second they make minor slip ups. Sure it's often a minority who kick up a stink but they tend to be the most vocal and if you were a player why would you bother?

It's impossible to understate just how much social media has changed the game. Everyone has a recording device on them, everyone has access to social media where their comments can be seen be millions of people. Even a decade ago, if you said something mildly controversial on BBC Berks, it would probably fly under the radar of a lot of people. Likewise, something in the Evening Post or the Chronicle could be quickly glossed over. Now, it lingers and everyone gets to see any piece of dirty laundry, even when in the greater context, that laundry isn't that dirty. Everything is archived and burying any regrettable moment of your past is getting harder and harder.

So, the risk vs. reward for players being open via the media has swung totally towards the risk. Yes there are some who break the mould and take those risks but its easy to see why the majority stick to the 'boring', safe and mundane.

Yet this goes back to the whole success on the pitch thing. I don't recall many of these things being brought up as issues in 2011/12 or 2010/11 when we had our most recent periods of entertaining success. Everything gets magnified and everything feels much more of a chore/problem when results are bad or performances less entertaining.

User avatar
Old Man Andrews
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3895
Joined: 02 Oct 2017 13:06
Location: The South of England

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Sep 2018 12:05

Wimb wrote:
bobby1413 wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:Players only want to talk when things are rosey. All of our squad are hiders unfortunately, not one of them can front it up.


I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


Tilehurstsouthbank
Member
Posts: 963
Joined: 25 Mar 2013 15:13

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 14 Sep 2018 12:33

Old Man Andrews wrote:
Wimb wrote:
bobby1413 wrote:
I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


Indeed. Would be good to see this again and would certainly go a long way to building bridges between players and fans. Now if we could only filter out the cretins....
Last edited by Tilehurstsouthbank on 14 Sep 2018 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Wimb
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5747
Joined: 21 Nov 2005 10:43
Location: www.thetilehurstend.com

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Wimb » 14 Sep 2018 14:34

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:
Wimb wrote:As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


Indeed. Would be good to see this again and would certainly go a long way to building bridges between players and fans. No if we could only filter out the cretins....


Thanks for the kind words TSB

OMA all I know is that the show is on hiatus for reasons beyond my control. Whether it’s budget/resources/time I have no honest idea what the main holdup is.

The club do put out regular interviews and content with players via the matchday programme, iFollow the website and social media so there are already plenty of outlets. I don’t think for a second there’s an arrogance that the players shouldn’t have to speak to fans.

As mentioned, I’m keen to do the show and I’m told the club do want to bring it back. I just don’t know when and if that will ultimately happen. I do think that if it’s brought back the club want to do it properly with regular time slots/scheduling so if we do come back then timing is important.

User avatar
Sutekh
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7260
Joined: 12 Feb 2014 15:05
Location: Destroying things.... just like Michael Gilkes used to

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Sutekh » 14 Sep 2018 14:43

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:
Wimb wrote:As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


Indeed. Would be good to see this again and would certainly go a long way to building bridges between players and fans. No if we could only filter out the cretins....


STAR sometimes do forums with 2/3 players and the questions asked will be anything from the standard "filler" like who/what has been the biggest influence to the more searching things like how are things going and where do you think you can improve. Likewise there is the same element of trust so players are a bit more open and less on their guard. Be great if there could be one at some point later this season as I think it would be good to be able to get the player's take with things being so much more of a struggle - but that'll all come down to whether the club are happy to put anyone up for it (always presuming STAR have the time and resource to organise of course).

User avatar
STAR Liaison
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1240
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:58

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by STAR Liaison » 14 Sep 2018 14:48

We are planning to have a Fans forum with some current players in November.


User avatar
Old Man Andrews
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3895
Joined: 02 Oct 2017 13:06
Location: The South of England

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Sep 2018 14:51

Anyone else get the impression Sutekh might be STAR Liason too? That was far too seemless of a link. :D

KC Royal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1398
Joined: 18 Sep 2004 15:36
Location: Kent

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by KC Royal » 16 Sep 2018 15:41

Great thread.

A few years ago my personal circumstances changed and so I don't plan to go to as many games as I used to. I've only been to two games since Stam came (although there were numerous games that I wanted to go to but couldn't for whatever reason - though for balance I was lucky to go to as many as I did in 2015/16). This season I haven't even considered when i'll go next. It doesn't help that there aren't any appealing away trips (I wouldn't get a ticket for Brentford), and the car parking issues definitely don't help either.

Anyone think that the success of Maidenhead in the last couple of years has played a part too? I've heard/read about several fans who've been to Maidenhead games in that time, and not just when we've not had a game on.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4015
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Snowflake Royal » 16 Sep 2018 18:55

Wimb wrote:
bobby1413 wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:Players only want to talk when things are rosey. All of our squad are hiders unfortunately, not one of them can front it up.


I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.

Personally I thought we did as good a job in the circumstances and I give the club credit for putting trust in me to ask some tougher questions where appropriate. I didn't feel censored but I'm wise enough to know the rough limits of what I could ask and what a player was likely to answer.

The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.

In the wider context, as others have pointed out, players often can't win. The Meyler example being the most recent but we've seen the likes of McCleary, Karacan and others all laid into and have their comments and social exchanges blown up by certain 'fans' the second they make minor slip ups. Sure it's often a minority who kick up a stink but they tend to be the most vocal and if you were a player why would you bother?

It's impossible to understate just how much social media has changed the game. Everyone has a recording device on them, everyone has access to social media where their comments can be seen be millions of people. Even a decade ago, if you said something mildly controversial on BBC Berks, it would probably fly under the radar of a lot of people. Likewise, something in the Evening Post or the Chronicle could be quickly glossed over. Now, it lingers and everyone gets to see any piece of dirty laundry, even when in the greater context, that laundry isn't that dirty. Everything is archived and burying any regrettable moment of your past is getting harder and harder.

So, the risk vs. reward for players being open via the media has swung totally towards the risk. Yes there are some who break the mould and take those risks but its easy to see why the majority stick to the 'boring', safe and mundane.

Yet this goes back to the whole success on the pitch thing. I don't recall many of these things being brought up as issues in 2011/12 or 2010/11 when we had our most recent periods of entertaining success. Everything gets magnified and everything feels much more of a chore/problem when results are bad or performances less entertaining.

Good post

bigshaka'away'
Member
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Jun 2005 17:47
Location: asia at the mo

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by bigshaka'away' » 20 Sep 2018 00:02

Max respect to all who went tonight, and will go again next time.

I, for my failings, would have been there if it was not for work (out the country for it). (I say this, but if I were home I would also have to talk the wife into letting me go, and not spend the weekend with her instead.)

But the size of the crowd says it all...and 1000 were away fans.

And this wasn't against a Rotherham, or a Burton. This was against Norwich. Norwich. There should be 16-18,000 at this match.

The fact that there isn't is telling of a deeper cause as stated by many on this thread.

Sad but true, and no fix in sight.

Depressing thought on a depressing night.


Zip
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1813
Joined: 30 Dec 2017 17:39

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Zip » 20 Sep 2018 00:14

Less than 13,000 tonight. Norwich brought around 1300 so gates are steadily dropping. If our home form continues we will drop to 10,000 and below for some games.

User avatar
RoyalBlue
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 11345
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 22:39
Location: Sorry Jaap, even I now think you have lost the plot.

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by RoyalBlue » 20 Sep 2018 08:05

Zip wrote:Less than 13,000 tonight. Norwich brought around 1300 so gates are steadily dropping. If our home form continues we will drop to 10,000 and below for some games.


And that was the figure declared by the club. Could well have been less.

Hull on Saturday could be where it drops below 10,000 and deservedly so.

It is not only the so called 'spoilt Johnny come latelies' that are staying away but also those who were there through all of the bad times in the 70s, 80s and 90s. I supported the team through all those years and I have never before felt so negative and apathetic towards the club.

Those running the club really need to wake up and smell the coffee quickly.

User avatar
Old Man Andrews
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3895
Joined: 02 Oct 2017 13:06
Location: The South of England

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Old Man Andrews » 20 Sep 2018 08:14

RoyalBlue wrote:
Zip wrote:Less than 13,000 tonight. Norwich brought around 1300 so gates are steadily dropping. If our home form continues we will drop to 10,000 and below for some games.


And that was the figure declared by the club. Could well have been less.

Hull on Saturday could be where it drops below 10,000 and deservedly so.

It is not only the so called 'spoilt Johnny come latelies' that are staying away but also those who were there through all of the bad times in the 70s, 80s and 90s. I supported the team through all those years and I have never before felt so negative and apathetic towards the club.

Those running the club really need to wake up and smell the coffee quickly.


Yeah there wasn't anywhere near 13,000, season ticket holders are staying away in their droves. I reckon you're looking at 10,000.

Jerry St Clair
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4458
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 15:59
Location: Longstanton Spice Museum

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Jerry St Clair » 20 Sep 2018 10:34

Maguire wrote:I rarely go these days. It's not the money. It's not even necessarily having a baby (although that is a factor). It's more the total lack of enjoyment I experienced for the last two seasons I had a Season Ticket.

Add in the detachment between the club and the town (I honestly hand on heart don't know who owns RFC beyond "the Chinese") and there's not much to tempt me back.

I also think - and some people won't agree with this - that you kind of grow out of football eventually. I see teenagers at away days on their big day out singing really shit songs and I think "good luck to them but nah, I'm done with all that". Few beers with my mates, quick blast of Come On You Royals and that'll do.


It's always been thus. As people grow, life gets in the way and football become less important.

The difference now is that, for multiple reasons, the demographic of the football supporter is changing, The average age of the season ticket holder is now around 43, whereas back in the 80s it was around 24. (I'll try and find the source for that stat). Clearly a ground full of middle-aged men is going to have a completely different atmosphere to one full of 20-somethings.

At Elm Park there was a clear career progression. You'd start going as a teen and stand on the right side of the South Bank. In your twenties, you'd migrate to stand under the clock or on the left side. Then you might head for the Tilehurst End with your kids in your 30s/40s and eventually you'd end up in C-block of the main stand with a blanket over your legs. There isn't that progression anymore and why the hell would any teenager want to spend a massive amount of cash sat, bored to death in a concrete bowl just off the A33?

Jerry St Clair
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4458
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 15:59
Location: Longstanton Spice Museum

Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Jerry St Clair » 20 Sep 2018 10:40

Stranded wrote:The game was just one part of your day, even for the hardcore - I think most on this forum would have considered themselves hardcore at some point i.e. not missing a home game and going away more often that not.

Now, the match is an effort. Where do you meet? The town centre and have to time getting the bus to either avoid queues or get there at the right time. Otherwise someone has to drive etc. You have to really really want to go. Biggest problem (and this is not just for us) is that where do the new "hardcore" go, the day is the key part of what makes you hardcore, the routine and meeting mates in the same pub - much harder to do now. Add in the crap we have been served up over the past 5 years and the fact that Reading is a very transient town with fans/families who support virtually any club in the UK and you have your loss of culture.


This. 100%.

Clubs are partly to blame. They've made an effort to grab a slice of the matchday spend of the average fan by locking you in to a "matchday experience". Where do you go for food, beer, socialising at he Madejski what isn't something run by the club?

I didn't go to Elm Park just for the football. It was about belonging, shared-experience, homeliness. The antithesis of modern football. I'm in danger of sounding like a right old git, but I'm convinced there is a kernal of truth in it.

158 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 56 guests

It is currently 20 Oct 2018 06:33