BFTG Villa

[NewCorkSeth]

If you believe a former ref his intent doesn't come into it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RefereeHalsey/status/1092066083622682624

in which case its even harderto prove anything.
there was a coming together, he got a bit tangled up and fell over oliveira, and in a split second his foot came down on his face.
for me any charge would only be down to the seriousness of the injury rather than any certainty about mings doing him on purpose, which seems a bit off. for me.
hunt didn't mean to do it, but in real time and slow mo to anyone who isnt a one eyed reading supporter) it looked like he probably dropped his knee into Czechs head on purpose.

There are three questions here:

Was it violent conduct - kinda implied intent in that, if not explicit, but very hard to say it is violent conduct IMO, it's not a clear punch /kick/headbutt/push etc
Is it excessive force - not really, he's just running, you'll never convincingly show extra force on that
Is it reckless - this is the more likely to stand up of the three IMO. If I was the FA and didn't like what I saw enough to want to charge him (esp with the previous) this is what I'd go with, but I still think a decent advocate could easily challenge at appeal.

Fair. I thinks it is too tough to prove that it was deliberate. As many have said only Mings will know that. I know I have bias but it looks deliberate to me. I imagine the investigation will be more cautious and find it not to be violent conduct but of they find it not to be reckless i will be shocked. It's entirely avoidable.

[Old Man Andrews]

Oliveira's Mrs isn't happy.

[Nameless]

Seems like the process is that the FA send the video to 3 former referees who then decide whether there is a case to answer.
Given some of the referees we have had of late I suspect this will end up with 1 suggesting Oliviera is charged with simulation......

[John Smith]

Decent all round, without looking too menacing. Defending has improved massively, and confidence is back.
Credit to jose, in a short space of time we've turned a corner. 2 months ago villa would've won that easily.

I don’t understand this corner we have turned. We remain in the relegation zone and find it almost impossible to win a game. We have won once in the past three months...obvs Gomes has only been here for half of that time but only one win for him against a team that had two players sent off doesn’t equate to a corner turned.

Got to agree with Zip here. Time is running out and we need to start getting points on the board more than pretty performances.

That result at Bolton is now made even more disastrous with this one at the weekend. To throw away two points like that at that stage of the game. You have to win your home games and we didn't even look like coming close to that. What with our best striker now out and Meite looking blunt then things aren't looking good. We must get something at Wednesday next weekend.

[Millsy]

Agreed with all this, especially the Ejaria bit

Haha yeah I couldn't work him out.

Forget to add Swift got tired and shit.

And Gomes bringing Richards on the left instead of Barrow. Quite possibly the weirdest sub decision I've seen. Barrow terrorises defences and would have been perfect. Wtf.

they had us under the cosh and he used the sub to settle us down defensively, which gave us the platform from which to get back into the game and enable us to get the ball, keep the ball and get the ball into attacking positions more. sometimes the best move offensively isn't to put more attackers on

Except he was playing as our left winger. I'd much rather Barrows pace as left winger tracking back to help a bit more in defence.

But thanks that does make more sense.

[biff]

Everyone I've spoken to reckon it's deliberate. It's only Villa fans and weirdly some Reading fans trying too hard to be "impartial" that are giving him any benefit of the doubt. Needs a bullet.

[Maneki Neko]

If you believe a former ref his intent doesn't come into it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RefereeHalsey/status/1092066083622682624

in which case its even harderto prove anything.
there was a coming together, he got a bit tangled up and fell over oliveira, and in a split second his foot came down on his face.
for me any charge would only be down to the seriousness of the injury rather than any certainty about mings doing him on purpose, which seems a bit off. for me.
hunt didn't mean to do it, but in real time and slow mo to anyone who isnt a one eyed reading supporter) it looked like he probably dropped his knee into Czechs head on purpose.

What is it about the Oliviera incident that makes it different to the Ibrahimovic incident ? He was not only found guilty of the Ibrahimovic one but given 2 extra game ban because of the seriousness of the incident.
The key is not did he got out to assault Oliviera but did he take all reasonable care not to do something that would cause injury. Personally I think he may have just left his leg in with the intention of giving Oliviera a bit of a tap and got it badly wrong. Players do that sort of thing all the time, winding up your opposite number is part of the game but when it goes wrong you have to take responsibility.

nothing. I don't think its possible to discern that he did either deliberately, and its very possible that both were entirely accidental.

personally I don't think either was deliberate, though that's based on the same data that I don't think is reliable enough to charge anyone over, so is just opinion. just like those judgements.

when you're falling and tangled up with someone, sometimes you don't have time, or are just not able to change your foot placement in time. I think that's what has happened here. but I don't think anyone but Mngs is able to say for sure if that is what did or didn't happen.

all of the people who are suddenly experts on the physical mechanics of movement/falling are just guessing

[Maneki Neko]

Agreed, it didn't look too bad in real time, but the footage and injury is conclusive in my opinion. Everyone is comparing this to hunt cech but that is different as they were travelling towards each other (not in the same direction) and the goalie dives at the ball and so has head in danger zone... rather than being tripped and stamped on when running together as mings did..

the outcome, as in the severity of injury, should have nothing to do with any decision.

if there is a car crash and neither person is to blame, but one person dies, that shouldn't automatically make the other person guilty

[Maneki Neko]

If you believe a former ref his intent doesn't come into it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RefereeHalsey/status/1092066083622682624

in which case its even harderto prove anything.
there was a coming together, he got a bit tangled up and fell over oliveira, and in a split second his foot came down on his face.
for me any charge would only be down to the seriousness of the injury rather than any certainty about mings doing him on purpose, which seems a bit off. for me.
hunt didn't mean to do it, but in real time and slow mo to anyone who isnt a one eyed reading supporter) it looked like he probably dropped his knee into Czechs head on purpose.

There are three questions here:

Was it violent conduct - kinda implied intent in that, if not explicit, but very hard to say it is violent conduct IMO, it's not a clear punch /kick/headbutt/push etc
Is it excessive force - not really, he's just running, you'll never convincingly show extra force on that
Is it reckless - this is the more likely to stand up of the three IMO. If I was the FA and didn't like what I saw enough to want to charge him (esp with the previous) this is what I'd go with, but I still think a decent advocate could easily challenge at appeal.

I agree with this

[genome]

No action will be taken by the FA as the ref saw the incident.

I get that you don't want to undermine referees, but what a terrible rule that is.

[10539.4 Miles Away]

No action will be taken by the FA as the ref saw the incident.

I get that you don't want to undermine referees, but what a terrible rule that is.

Are you oxf*rd kidding? What's the source? (don't mean to question you personally genome)

[genome]

No action will be taken by the FA as the ref saw the incident.

I get that you don't want to undermine referees, but what a terrible rule that is.

Are you oxf*rd kidding? What's the source? (don't mean to question you personally genome)

Official Reading FC Twitter account.

[10539.4 Miles Away]

No action will be taken by the FA as the ref saw the incident.

I get that you don't want to undermine referees, but what a terrible rule that is.

Are you oxf*rd kidding? What's the source? (don't mean to question you personally genome)

Official Reading FC Twitter account.

Yeah. Just seen it. Un-fcking-believable.

[Nameless]

in which case its even harderto prove anything.
there was a coming together, he got a bit tangled up and fell over oliveira, and in a split second his foot came down on his face.
for me any charge would only be down to the seriousness of the injury rather than any certainty about mings doing him on purpose, which seems a bit off. for me.
hunt didn't mean to do it, but in real time and slow mo to anyone who isnt a one eyed reading supporter) it looked like he probably dropped his knee into Czechs head on purpose.

What is it about the Oliviera incident that makes it different to the Ibrahimovic incident ? He was not only found guilty of the Ibrahimovic one but given 2 extra game ban because of the seriousness of the incident.
The key is not did he got out to assault Oliviera but did he take all reasonable care not to do something that would cause injury. Personally I think he may have just left his leg in with the intention of giving Oliviera a bit of a tap and got it badly wrong. Players do that sort of thing all the time, winding up your opposite number is part of the game but when it goes wrong you have to take responsibility.

nothing. I don't think its possible to discern that he did either deliberately, and its very possible that both were entirely accidental.

personally I don't think either was deliberate, though that's based on the same data that I don't think is reliable enough to charge anyone over, so is just opinion. just like those judgements.

when you're falling and tangled up with someone, sometimes you don't have time, or are just not able to change your foot placement in time. I think that's what has happened here. but I don't think anyone but Mngs is able to say for sure if that is what did or didn't happen.

all of the people who are suddenly experts on the physical mechanics of movement/falling are just guessing

If you remove the red herring of it being deliberate how do you feel ?
Has Mings TWICE been the victim of a terrible misfortune, or has he been very careless and not taken care to avoid injuring an opponent ?
These often can’t be decided on facts (although I’m a bit surprised Ian hasn’t tried to insist someone gives him a way of measuring intent). It’s going to be opinion that decides what happens but it won’t be our opinion, it will be experienced officials and ex players with a lawyer in the mix somewhere.
I think the fact that Mings has done this twice means the FA have to charge him. He was guilty once and natural justice would demand it is properly investigated a second time. If he’s found not to have committed an offence then fairbenough, although whatever, he needs to be told very clearly he won’t be allowed a third unlucky accident

[Old Man Andrews]

Yeah thought it would be hard for the FA to overrule the ref.

[Hound]

Think Mings is a very very lucky boy. I can understand the FA not having enough evidence to prove him guilty, but do equally hate that rubbish rule of the ref seeing it

[Nameless]

Are you oxf*rd kidding? What's the source? (don't mean to question you personally genome)

Official Reading FC Twitter account.

Yeah. Just seen it. Un-fcking-believable.

Shocking.
But what can you do ?
Those are the rules.
Odd that VAR can be used to correct clear errors by an official but for anything else they can get something badly wrong and there’s is no comeback.
This is very different to a missed offside or a close penalty.
Mings is extremely lucky and suspect he may get a lively reception if he plays us again....

[muirinho]

Think Mings is a very very lucky boy. I can understand the FA not having enough evidence to prove him guilty, but do equally hate that rubbish rule of the ref seeing it

Personally think that's a pretty rubbish rule (if the referee sees it, they won't adjudicate again). I can see why they have it, but surely it makes bias by referees more likely?

Hope we don't see that ref again for a while, it wasn't just this incident, he seemed to alternate randomly between blowing up for gentle nudges, and ignoring blatant shoves, as the mood took him.

[Denver Royal]

What is it about the Oliviera incident that makes it different to the Ibrahimovic incident ? He was not only found guilty of the Ibrahimovic one but given 2 extra game ban because of the seriousness of the incident.
The key is not did he got out to assault Oliviera but did he take all reasonable care not to do something that would cause injury. Personally I think he may have just left his leg in with the intention of giving Oliviera a bit of a tap and got it badly wrong. Players do that sort of thing all the time, winding up your opposite number is part of the game but when it goes wrong you have to take responsibility.

nothing. I don't think its possible to discern that he did either deliberately, and its very possible that both were entirely accidental.

personally I don't think either was deliberate, though that's based on the same data that I don't think is reliable enough to charge anyone over, so is just opinion. just like those judgements.

when you're falling and tangled up with someone, sometimes you don't have time, or are just not able to change your foot placement in time. I think that's what has happened here. but I don't think anyone but Mngs is able to say for sure if that is what did or didn't happen.

all of the people who are suddenly experts on the physical mechanics of movement/falling are just guessing

If you remove the red herring of it being deliberate how do you feel ?
Has Mings TWICE been the victim of a terrible misfortune, or has he been very careless and not taken care to avoid injuring an opponent ?
These often can’t be decided on facts (although I’m a bit surprised Ian hasn’t tried to insist someone gives him a way of measuring intent). It’s going to be opinion that decides what happens but it won’t be our opinion, it will be experienced officials and ex players with a lawyer in the mix somewhere.
I think the fact that Mings has done this twice means the FA have to charge him. He was guilty once and natural justice would demand it is properly investigated a second time. If he’s found not to have committed an offence then fairbenough, although whatever, he needs to be told very clearly he won’t be allowed a third unlucky accident

If it happens a 3rd time with Mings, and the injuries were way more serious (or even worse than that), then the FA would have a lot to answer for, lawsuits, etc.

[Greatwesternline]

While the source is Reading FC they use the words "But as the incident was seen by the referee at the time, we understand no retrospective action can or will be taken by the FA."

The FA do over rule instances where the ref has seen it, for example Ben Thatcher on Pedro Mendes.

I don't think this is done until there is an FA quote rather than RFC saying they "understand"