FAO Hobnob

[The Rouge]

well as an individual Reading fan, who lives nowhere near Reading, the choices for me are:
- to do nothing
- to try and make your voice heard directly to the club/through social media on issues that are important to you (and potentially to fight against initiatives you don't like coming out of STAR - but adding weight to any positive STAR initiatives if they exist)

As someone who pays thousands of pounds each season supporting RFC parting with £10 would take very very little if there was any personal value in it.

As a group of Reading fans, there is the opportunity to either:
- to do nothing
- set up a new supporters group
- set up a new communication channel with the club, explaining that HNA is the biggest single community of Reading fans and that many feel very differently to what they hear through STAR/RFC's Facebook output
- to join STAR en masse if there is a general feeling that there is chance of changing their direction. My cynicism here is that a) I don't think they will give up their cosy relationship with the club easily b) it is their little club and I don't think they will surrender that easily c) people who revel in committee's and stuff will be good at that side of things and donate more time than those who traditionally haven't d) it seems a million miles away from the position I and many come from

Not many things get me angry, but if that woman had said that to me when not taking a clapper I would have given her a piece of my mind.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

As an IPS it has a legal (and verified) obligation to be democratic, and it does this completely.

But it represents its members, as any membership organisation does.

Just because there are a whole lot of people who want the benefits of representation as a right, without being prepared to put anything at all in (even a relatively small sum like £10 a year) doesn't make it undemocratic.

If people want to change it then join it and change it - but sitting on the sidelines sniping whilst saying "I'm not joining because they don't represent me" is a frankly pathetic argument.

With respect Dirkers, I don't think you get it. If you think something:

- won't represent you
- is elitist
- is self-promotional
- is occasionally embarrasing
- supports the clapper/rumblestix/music after goals breed of fans that is out of touch with many traditional football fans

then to suggest that people are being 'pathetic' if they don't join it and change it from the inside seems waaay out of touch to me.
And it really isn't about the tenner.

Happy to answer these points .....

- won't represent you

They will, they legally have to, but you have to do your part and join. It wouldn't take many people to make a change - and one of the biggest problems is that there just aren't enough people coming forward to do something to change things.

- is elitist

What do you mean by "elitist"? If you mean they listen to their members and not to people who hurl insults at them on an internet message board you're right. And I agree that they have lost control of their image and their narrative and are doing themselves no favours at the moment, but the reality is that they'd love to have more people joining and actually doing things. they may only be seen as "elitist" because there's a small group of people doing everything or it don't get done.... has anyone tried to join in and see if they're welcomed or if the "elite" preserves itself?

- is self-promotional

Mixed messages here, and I don't understand where this comes from. People are saying they don't communicate, and also that they self-promote, FWIW I believe that they've not been communicating effectively at all outside their membership - so they've not been promoting themselves at all.

- is occasionally embarrasing

Surely that's all subjective. Perhaps their members aren't embarrassed, perhaps their membership is too skewed towards a specific type of supporter? That's easily changed, but only by their membership.

- supports the clapper/rumblestix/music after goals breed of fans that is out of touch with many traditional football fans

See the above point. They can only support what their membership tells them to support.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not blindly supporting them. There's a lot wrong with the way they work, the image they're projecting and the way they're disengaged from many supporters. But they're a membership organisation.

It can be changed, but it won't be changed by people on message boards wanting to see them wiped off the face of the earth. Like everything else in this world, it'll be changed by people getting out from behind their keyboards and making a contribution and making a difference and putting some effort in themselves, rather than just wanting things done for them and whining when they're not done the way they wanted.

Reading supporters NEED and deserve an effective and authoritative organisation to represent them. But they won't get that for nothing, they have to do their bit too.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

As a group of Reading fans, there is the opportunity to either:
- to do nothing
In which case you get what you deserve

- set up a new supporters group
Each club can only have one Trust, and other types of supporters organisationsare less effectiove. A Trust is far and away THE best structure for a supporters organisation for all sorts of reasons I won't bore you with.

- set up a new communication channel with the club, explaining that HNA is the biggest single community of Reading fans and that many feel very differently to what they hear through STAR/RFC's Facebook output
But it's not. It likes to think it is but there are relatively few active and regular posters here (<100) and many of them aren't even Reading fans. There's alos no democratic structure etc - it's a case of whoever shouts loudest or most often gets heard.

- to join STAR en masse if there is a general feeling that there is chance of changing their direction. My cynicism here is that a) I don't think they will give up their cosy relationship with the club easily b) it is their little club and I don't think they will surrender that easily c) people who revel in committee's and stuff will be good at that side of things and donate more time than those who traditionally haven't d) it seems a million miles away from the position I and many come from
Fundamental, fundamental point being missed or ignored. There is no "THEY". STAR is democratic - the Board is elected by the members and can be censured and removed by the members. So the board will do whatever the members tell it to and follow whatever polices their members tell it to. Do you really feel that there won't be enough people who feel they way you do to effect any change? Because that's how democracy works.

[The Rouge]

As a group of Reading fans, there is the opportunity to either:
- to do nothing
In which case you get what you deserve
I was just outlining an option. Not everyone has enough time to do more than fill out the odd survey or send the odd email - it doesn't necessarily mean their voice should go unheard.

- set up a new supporters group
Each club can only have one Trust, and other types of supporters organisationsare less effectiove. A Trust is far and away THE best structure for a supporters organisation for all sorts of reasons I won't bore you with.
I have read your thoughts on this - but it is an option if you feel that the current organisation cannot be changed.

- set up a new communication channel with the club, explaining that HNA is the biggest single community of Reading fans and that many feel very differently to what they hear through STAR/RFC's Facebook output
But it's not. It likes to think it is but there are relatively few active and regular posters here (<100) and many of them aren't even Reading fans. There's alos no democratic structure etc - it's a case of whoever shouts loudest or most often gets heard.
OK - so its not the largest, but I would argue it is the most passionate and there is only one significantly active Reading FC fan forum, so I still think it is pretty important. Your less than 100 posters is laughable.

- to join STAR en masse if there is a general feeling that there is chance of changing their direction. My cynicism here is that a) I don't think they will give up their cosy relationship with the club easily b) it is their little club and I don't think they will surrender that easily c) people who revel in committee's and stuff will be good at that side of things and donate more time than those who traditionally haven't d) it seems a million miles away from the position I and many come from
Fundamental, fundamental point being missed or ignored. There is no "THEY". STAR is democratic - the Board is elected by the members and can be censured and removed by the members. So the board will do whatever the members tell it to and follow whatever polices their members tell it to. Do you really feel that there won't be enough people who feel they way you do to effect any change? Because that's how democracy works.
From your rather brash dismissal of every other option, it is clear that this is your preferred option and it is clear you think it is the right approach. I think you are naive to think that an influx of new members will change the majority decisions, nor change the direction they take. I may just pay a tenner to have a vote on things but doubt it will make any difference (like voting Lab/Lib in Wandsworth) - then I will face the shame of knowing that MY organisation's season contribution has been running coaches, producing one clapper (you know to help real fans make some noise) and to source flask-carrying imbeciles to splutter non-questions on a radio show.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

As a group of Reading fans, there is the opportunity to either:
- to do nothing
In which case you get what you deserve
I was just outlining an option. Not everyone has enough time to do more than fill out the odd survey or send the odd email - it doesn't necessarily mean their voice should go unheard.
Fully understand and respect that.

- set up a new supporters group
Each club can only have one Trust, and other types of supporters organisationsare less effectiove. A Trust is far and away THE best structure for a supporters organisation for all sorts of reasons I won't bore you with.
I have read your thoughts on this - but it is an option if you feel that the current organisation cannot be changed.
It certainly is. But I'm suire it would be counter-productive. So many clubs where there are two or more supporters' organisations provide the perfect platform for a club to play "divide and rule"

- set up a new communication channel with the club, explaining that HNA is the biggest single community of Reading fans and that many feel very differently to what they hear through STAR/RFC's Facebook output
But it's not. It likes to think it is but there are relatively few active and regular posters here (<100) and many of them aren't even Reading fans. There's also no democratic structure etc - it's a case of whoever shouts loudest or most often gets heard.
OK - so its not the largest, but I would argue it is the most passionate and there is only one significantly active Reading FC fan forum, so I still think it is pretty important. Your less than 100 posters is laughable.
Its the loudest, but who is anyone to generalise about one set/type of supporter being more passionate than others? Although people on HNA drift in and out all the time I don't think there is ever more than a subset of about 100 who actively post in any single period. I'd say there's hardcore of about 50 and the other 50 or so are people who come or go. Look through the member lists and the forums - this place is a lot less significant than it thinks. But even if it's 200, 300 or 500 that doesn't defeat the argument.

- to join STAR en masse if there is a general feeling that there is chance of changing their direction. My cynicism here is that a) I don't think they will give up their cosy relationship with the club easily b) it is their little club and I don't think they will surrender that easily c) people who revel in committee's and stuff will be good at that side of things and donate more time than those who traditionally haven't d) it seems a million miles away from the position I and many come from
Fundamental, fundamental point being missed or ignored. There is no "THEY". STAR is democratic - the Board is elected by the members and can be censured and removed by the members. So the board will do whatever the members tell it to and follow whatever polices their members tell it to. Do you really feel that there won't be enough people who feel they way you do to effect any change? Because that's how democracy works.
From your rather brash dismissal of every other option, it is clear that this is your preferred option and it is clear you think it is the right approach. I think you are naive to think that an influx of new members will change the majority decisions, nor change the direction they take. I may just pay a tenner to have a vote on things but doubt it will make any difference (like voting Lab/Lib in Wandsworth) - then I will face the shame of knowing that MY organisation's season contribution has been running coaches, producing one clapper (you know to help real fans make some noise) and to source flask-carrying imbeciles to splutter non-questions on a radio show.
I think it's the ONLY approach. People are unhappy with the organisation, people change the organisation. To think you can't so it's not worth trying is just defeatist. And I'm sure that it wouldn't take very much to change the demographic within STAR as required. There are so few active participants in reality that peopel prepared to DO and not just say that others should do would be welcomed in and would make a real difference.

No comments on my final summary?

[The Rouge]

I thought I did comment on it all.

I reject your 100 fan regular posters. There are a huge number of people who read and chip in from time to time. There are many RFC football attendees who post in AE, or General Football etc.

You said there are about 2000+ members. If motions get passed 55:45 then yes there may be an opportunity to join and influence. If they get passed with larger majorities then not so much. I doubt whether some decisions that show the approach (e.g. shall we communicate effectively on social media/HNA?, research our fanbase and work out how we can appeal to them and increase membership) all have votes do they? May be wrong..

I don't want to talk about which fans are more passionate, or better fans. All I know is that the views of people on here and the views of those in the pubs on match day are markedly different and the out-of-touch feeling of STAR and Reading FC has been apparent for a long time. I am neither a real traditionalist (although I do think we should have full hoops) nor a subscriber to the new sanitised/pantomime-esque way of supporting teams, but I do feel disillusioned with the direction and those that are slightly more tradtional/been southbankers etc even more so.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Let's not get into analysis of user number here - that way madness lies. But even If I'm out by a factor of 5 the number is still small in comparison to STAR membership or RFC crowds. And if you look at the number of posters who actively and regularly post and have opinions on things like STAR, football finance, and don't just want to talk about who we should have signed in the transfer window the number gets smaller still. I think an 80/20 rule will apply here, in that 80% of posts are being made by 20% of active users.

STAR doesn't work the way you suggest, with a referendum for every decision. Rather the membership elects Board members who make the decisions on their behalf throughout the year. So it's the profiles of the Board members you should be interested in, together with their views and their record of following the views of their electorate you should be interested in.

In recent years STAR often hasn't had enough nominations for Board members, and so has vacancies on the Board. People coming forward and filling those vacancies would do so much to change the organisation, in a positive way, and would give new life and impetus. In reality there are rarely votes, and much is done by consensus, but the "us and them" you project is wholly wrong. The STAR Board, I'm sure, would love more direction from the membership - they get precious little from my experience. Rather people elect them (or they're elected by default) and left to get on with it. Clearly this lack of elections, shrinking electorate and lack of new blood coming through is unhealthy for any organisation.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I don't want to talk about which fans are more passionate, or better fans. All I know is that the views of people on here and the views of those in the pubs on match day are markedly different and the out-of-touch feeling of STAR and Reading FC has been apparent for a long time. I am neither a real traditionalist (although I do think we should have full hoops) nor a subscriber to the new sanitised/pantomime-esque way of supporting teams, but I do feel disillusioned with the direction and those that are slightly more tradtional/been southbankers etc even more so.

Taking this paragraph is isolation, the sad fact is that the "more tradtional/been southbankers" type of supporters are in the minority, so perhaps STAR does reflect reading supporters as they are now.

It's an unpleasant fact, but the vast majority of people who go to the MadStad or to away games never went to Elm Park - I don't have figures handy, but ISTR the figure I saw was about 70-80% of current supporter never went to EP, and this was a few years ago.

There's a lot of criticism of the club and STAR for doing things in a new (and commercial) way - God knows, I've done enough of the criticism myself! - but is it just the fact that we have to face the horrible reality that football is now quite different to what it once was, and people are trying to preserve a mythical past that's no longer possible?

[ZacNaloen]

About the numbers Dirk, arent you assuming all star members are as active as hobnobs top members? We've already heard stories of members signing up paying their fee and hearing nothing from star. I really would not be shocked to find that this rings true form a large number of the membership.

[The Rouge]

OK got you.

Well if it is a choice of:
- Oust the board for change
- Move to Reading, run for election

then I am out.

In today's modern era they could easily be more democratic on individual issues and send out an email to vote on certain things/approaches. IF that happened, and STAR committed to representing the majority, then I (and many others?) would pay a tenner to vote on 10-20 things each year and maybe feel represented.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

About the numbers Dirk, arent you assuming all star members are as active as hobnobs top members? We've already heard stories of members signing up paying their fee and hearing nothing from star. I really would not be shocked to find that this rings true form a large number of the membership.

Absolutely not, no - see my comment in an above post, that the vast majority of STAR members are very inactive and lead the elected board to get on with it. More direction, input and activity would be a good thing for all, I think.

What I was picking up on was the term "passionate supporters" and the implication that because people post on an internet message they're more "passionate" than anyone else.

[ZacNaloen]

Ah, fair enough.

Only read the first post tbf

[Schards#2]

Fold the forum

[glenroyal]

It can be changed, but it won't be changed by people on message boards wanting to see them wiped off the face of the earth. Like everything else in this world, it'll be changed by people getting out from behind their keyboards and making a contribution and making a difference and putting some effort in themselves, rather than just wanting things done for them and whining when they're not done the way they wanted.

Agreed. Obviously STAR can improve - I'm sure the active officers would agree too - but criticising or working against volunteers is destructive.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

OK got you.

Well if it is a choice of:
- Oust the board for change
- Move to Reading, run for election

then I am out.

In today's modern era they could easily be more democratic on individual issues and send out an email to vote on certain things/approaches. IF that happened, and STAR committed to representing the majority, then I (and many others?) would pay a tenner to vote on 10-20 things each year and maybe feel represented.

No-one needs to "oust the board" - that's an over-simplifciation. A wider range of people on the board with a wider range of views and backgrounds, would make a difference. Change takes time, it isn't instant, and it's not a board like Parliament where everything is done on votes and party lines. If someone wants to drive something or do a project they usually only have to convince the rest of the board its a good idea and they get given a mandate for it.

[Royal Lady]

Well, I can only say as I see it and having been given the "evils" all game by a (who I presume to be still) member of STAR after I'd voiced a few strong opinions on the subject* - I'm kind of thinking I'm a marked woman and no-one would listen to me anyway! For example, say, for example, Yellowcoat is a member of STAR - do you really think he will put aside his prejudices/infatuation of me and actually listen to what I might have to suggest?

*I'm guessing this was the reason as I'd not seen them for, literally, years but if looks could kill I'd be six feet under! Lol.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

As a codicil to the above, I still think the onus is also on STAR to widen the appeal of membership so that more people want to join and participate.

A reduced membership fee, giving membership and voting rights (it has to be a minimum of £1 a year for legal reasons) with a top-up fee for membership of the STAR Travel Club to let people travel on coaches would do the trick nicely. The only problem, that I currently don't have a good answer for, is that the cost of providing membership cards and membership administration etc to the organisation is likely to be more than £1.

Having said that, I don't think some people would join or participate if it cost them nothing.

[The Rouge]

OK got you.

Well if it is a choice of:
- Oust the board for change
- Move to Reading, run for election

then I am out.

In today's modern era they could easily be more democratic on individual issues and send out an email to vote on certain things/approaches. IF that happened, and STAR committed to representing the majority, then I (and many others?) would pay a tenner to vote on 10-20 things each year and maybe feel represented.

No-one needs to "oust the board" - that's an over-simplifciation. A wider range of people on the board with a wider range of views and backgrounds, would make a difference. Change takes time, it isn't instant, and it's not a board like Parliament where everything is done on votes and party lines. If someone wants to drive something or do a project they usually only have to convince the rest of the board its a good idea and they get given a mandate for it.

I had actually assumed that it was more democratic than it was. I would like my views represented, and the views of the thousands currently unrepresented (my view) at present, but I don't have the option of running for board.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

OK got you.

Well if it is a choice of:
- Oust the board for change
- Move to Reading, run for election

then I am out.

In today's modern era they could easily be more democratic on individual issues and send out an email to vote on certain things/approaches. IF that happened, and STAR committed to representing the majority, then I (and many others?) would pay a tenner to vote on 10-20 things each year and maybe feel represented.

No-one needs to "oust the board" - that's an over-simplifciation. A wider range of people on the board with a wider range of views and backgrounds, would make a difference. Change takes time, it isn't instant, and it's not a board like Parliament where everything is done on votes and party lines. If someone wants to drive something or do a project they usually only have to convince the rest of the board its a good idea and they get given a mandate for it.

I had actually assumed that it was more democratic than it was. I would like my views represented, and the views of the thousands currently unrepresented (my view) at present, but I don't have the option of running for board.

Indeed, I assume most people don't. But STAR needs a broader mix of board members from somewhere, and that can only really come from increasing/widening the membership. And that needs people to join.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Well, I can only say as I see it and having been given the "evils" all game by a (who I presume to be still) member of STAR after I'd voiced a few strong opinions on the subject* - I'm kind of thinking I'm a marked woman and no-one would listen to me anyway! For example, say, for example, Yellowcoat is a member of STAR - do you really think he will put aside his prejudices/infatuation of me and actually listen to what I might have to suggest?

*I'm guessing this was the reason as I'd not seen them for, literally, years but if looks could kill I'd be six feet under! Lol.

Ah, so it's a personal thing for you ......?