Safe standing progress

Nameless
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Re: Safe standing progress

by Nameless » 15 Jul 2017 09:01

Is safe standing really taking over the world ?
Is it not essentially a UK issue ?
Are there many other countries where football grounds are compelled legally to be all seater ? For European grounds it is only European games that require seating so they come at this from the opposite angle (how do we make our terraces work as seated areas for a small number of games ).
I'm not sure how often the UK situation of converting seated stadia into standing ones crops up elsewhere.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by multisync1830 » 15 Jul 2017 16:28

Nameless wrote:Is safe standing really taking over the world ?
Is it not essentially a UK issue ?
Are there many other countries where football grounds are compelled legally to be all seater ? For European grounds it is only European games that require seating so they come at this from the opposite angle (how do we make our terraces work as seated areas for a small number of games ).
I'm not sure how often the UK situation of converting seated stadia into standing ones crops up elsewhere.

easier to google than ponder

http://www.athleticbusiness.com/stadium ... areas.html

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features ... -sidelines

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Ian Royal » 15 Jul 2017 17:14

a) I'd reluctantly move if safe standing was in the ED because I much prefer the side to an end. I'd move like a shot if it was anywhere in the East I wasn't already sitting
b) no way I'd move if my ST became safe standing. I stood most of the last two seasons I went anyway.

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WAZZOCK
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Re: Safe standing progress

by WAZZOCK » 15 Jul 2017 17:59

Best case scenario is they move away fans to Y24, 25 & 26, and have safe standing in the South Stand for home fans.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Ian Royal » 15 Jul 2017 18:11

WAZZOCK wrote:Best case scenario is they move away fans to Y24, 25 & 26, and have safe standing in the South Stand for home fans.

That would need major work to divide the East Stand Concourse and move the external gates. There is no chance that will happen.


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Re: Safe standing progress

by West Stand Man » 15 Jul 2017 18:15

WAZZOCK wrote:Best case scenario is they move away fans to Y24, 25 & 26, and have safe standing in the South Stand for home fans.



I can't see that having any mileage whatsoever. If they provide standing for home fans then they will have to do so for away fans too. If they provide standing in the East Stand then all fans along from that will have their view restricted by the standing fans. It really only makes sense to put the standing at each end.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by WAZZOCK » 15 Jul 2017 18:17

It is possible, and I know the club have looked into moving the away end to this space on a few occasions. Maybe our new overlords will be receptive to the idea.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Nameless » 15 Jul 2017 20:22

Why would they need to provide standing for away fans too ?
I don't think there are any regulations that state this and AFAIK the club's planning to install safe standing are doing it for home fans.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Nameless » 15 Jul 2017 20:25

multisync1830 wrote:
Nameless wrote:Is safe standing really taking over the world ?
Is it not essentially a UK issue ?
Are there many other countries where football grounds are compelled legally to be all seater ? For European grounds it is only European games that require seating so they come at this from the opposite angle (how do we make our terraces work as seated areas for a small number of games ).
I'm not sure how often the UK situation of converting seated stadia into standing ones crops up elsewhere.

easier to google than ponder

http://www.athleticbusiness.com/stadium ... areas.html

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features ... -sidelines


So it's not taking over the world, there don't seem to be other countries with bans on terracing, in the US they aren't converting existing stadia.
So my essentially rhetorical questions seem to be based on reasonable assumptions !


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Re: Safe standing progress

by Nobby Royal » 16 Jul 2017 10:57

Interesting spread of opinions. From my research (Google) I'm led to believe the issue with converting seated stands is about the size of the concourse areas. So if it were a retro fit you could only replace a seat with a standing space on a 1 to 1 basis as Celtic have done.

I read somewhere if you're building new, you can have up to 1.8 to 1 so may more standing spectators. How that works with all-seated games I'm not sure.

Spurs have designed part of the new stadium for easy conversion and I think Bristol City have done similar.

I think rail seats in the north stand would create a better experience even if you want to stay seated because a lot of fans who want to stand will move.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by STAR Liaison » 16 Jul 2017 11:51

multisync1830 wrote:
West Stand Man wrote:So, the most obvious solution would be standing at the North and South ends. Back to a bit of tradition then, with the home and away vocal elements at opposite ends of the stadium.

My understanding is that the structural issue is down to the steepness of the current seating. The stadium was built for all-seater use and that is an issue for any future changes.



My understanding and memory is that the stadium isn't that steep and isn't the issue. but interested in the counter argument. however as I say the main concern was voiced to me as "Why bother?"

Interestingly safe standing is taking over all around the world. Ironically even at the home of modern seated stadia America is embracing SS as a way forward of enhancing spectator enjoyment.

it's going to happen here 100% IMHO.


At the last Safety Advisory Group meeting there was an extended discussion about this, and there is definitely a problem with safe standing at the back of the stands as it is too steep.

Also the idea of just adding rail seats would also reduce the capacity as you need more room to stand than sit so you lose 10% of capcaity.

The problem with safe standing is political - it will need someone to stand up to the emotion of Hillsborough for it to happen.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Snowflake Royal » 16 Jul 2017 13:00

STAR Liaison wrote:
multisync1830 wrote:
West Stand Man wrote:So, the most obvious solution would be standing at the North and South ends. Back to a bit of tradition then, with the home and away vocal elements at opposite ends of the stadium.

My understanding is that the structural issue is down to the steepness of the current seating. The stadium was built for all-seater use and that is an issue for any future changes.



My understanding and memory is that the stadium isn't that steep and isn't the issue. but interested in the counter argument. however as I say the main concern was voiced to me as "Why bother?"

Interestingly safe standing is taking over all around the world. Ironically even at the home of modern seated stadia America is embracing SS as a way forward of enhancing spectator enjoyment.

it's going to happen here 100% IMHO.


At the last Safety Advisory Group meeting there was an extended discussion about this, and there is definitely a problem with safe standing at the back of the stands as it is too steep.

Also the idea of just adding rail seats would also reduce the capacity as you need more room to stand than sit so you lose 10% of capcaity.

The problem with safe standing is political - it will need someone to stand up to the emotion of Hillsborough for it to happen.

I thought the argument was it needed less space to stand than sit and it increased capacity... or do you mean specifically for our set up?

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Re: Safe standing progress

by tmesis » 16 Jul 2017 13:33

STAR Liaison wrote:Also the idea of just adding rail seats would also reduce the capacity as you need more room to stand than sit so you lose 10% of capcaity.

Why on earth would you need more room to stand rather than sit?

That sounds like on of those stupid clueless FLA ideas that has no basis at all in reality.


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Re: Safe standing progress

by Nameless » 16 Jul 2017 18:58

STAR Liaison wrote:
The problem with safe standing is political - it will need someone to stand up to the emotion of Hillsborough for it to happen.


Surely that is not an issue ?
Hillsborough wasn't caused by terracing and we didn't ban seating after Bradford.
Now the real causes of Hillsboro are widely understood it's hard to see why that specifically should be a reason not to implement something that would possibly have reduced the scale of the tragedy.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by West Stand Man » 16 Jul 2017 19:17

Nameless wrote:
STAR Liaison wrote:
The problem with safe standing is political - it will need someone to stand up to the emotion of Hillsborough for it to happen.


Surely that is not an issue ?
Hillsborough wasn't caused by terracing and we didn't ban seating after Bradford.
Now the real causes of Hillsboro are widely understood it's hard to see why that specifically should be a reason not to implement something that would possibly have reduced the scale of the tragedy.


No, after Bradford it became clear that wooden structures were unsafe.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Snowflake Royal » 16 Jul 2017 21:08

Nameless wrote:
STAR Liaison wrote:
The problem with safe standing is political - it will need someone to stand up to the emotion of Hillsborough for it to happen.


Surely that is not an issue ?
Hillsborough wasn't caused by terracing and we didn't ban seating after Bradford.
Now the real causes of Hillsboro are widely understood it's hard to see why that specifically should be a reason not to implement something that would possibly have reduced the scale of the tragedy.

There's still a wide perception that standing is about terracing and that terracing isn't safe, it's going to require a very strong push for anyone to legislate a return to standing, because it's just not on the political radar to do it. A relatively small sub-set of football fans really want it and football fans are not well respected in political circles.

Just because the truth about Hillsborough is official, doesn't change that.

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Re: Safe standing progress

by CountryRoyal » 16 Jul 2017 22:11

Don't know if it's been covered but iirc I read with regards to the Shrewsbury news that Prem and Champ clubs MUST be all seater.

Obviously we have Brentford and Barnet and not too long ago Peterborough. So what's the specifics? Does it have to be under a certain capacity or does it only apply to newly built grounds?

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Nameless » 17 Jul 2017 06:59

I believe the rule is that a club promoted into the relevant tiers has a fixed period of time to meet the all seater rule (EFL membership criteria state it must happen by the start of the club's 4th season in the champ.)
It's likely that where a club has a new ground on the horizon then they might get an extension on the time.
Obviously if a club got promoted and then relegated they would not have been made to go all seater, but I doubt many clubs decided to get relegated just to avoid putting seats in

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Re: Safe standing progress

by handbags_harris » 18 Jul 2017 14:11

Nameless wrote:I believe the rule is that a club promoted into the relevant tiers has a fixed period of time to meet the all seater rule (EFL membership criteria state it must happen by the start of the club's 4th season in the champ.)
It's likely that where a club has a new ground on the horizon then they might get an extension on the time.
Obviously if a club got promoted and then relegated they would not have been made to go all seater, but I doubt many clubs decided to get relegated just to avoid putting seats in


Kind of right. Clubs with terracing that are promoted to the Championship are required to convert their terraced areas to all-seater by, as you say, the beginning of their fourth season at that level, unless the promoted club successfully argue for an exemption as they have a new stadium on the horizon, again as you state. This is why Brentford are having a fourth season with terraced areas in their stadium, and Cardiff also had the same with Ninian Park (promoted in 2004, last season there 2008/09).

If a club is promoted and then relegated within the three seasons, the seasons they spent at the higher level count towards the three, so Scunthorpe still have terracing behind one of their goals but if they get promoted they will be required to convert it to seating as they have had three seasons at Championship level since the regulation was introduced, split over two periods (2007/08 & 2009/10-2010/11).

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Re: Safe standing progress

by Sebastian the Red » 18 Jul 2017 15:13

The last thing we need to do is encourage yet worse behaviour from football fans. Very much hope this goes absolutely nowhere.

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