England - the future....

3564 posts
User avatar
Sutekh
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 18384
Joined: 12 Feb 2014 14:05
Location: Undiscovered pyramid somewhere in Egypt

Re: England - the future....

by Sutekh » 04 Sep 2017 19:34

Uninspiring pool of talent lacking any real flair, creativity where it matters and excitement together with an uninspiring manager. Premier League club's attitude to team building has wrecked the England set up over the last 15 years or so - not that the set up was ever much cop of course but the pool of talent has slowly dwindled and dwindled.

Perhaps they shold stop being so blinkered and look at some of the options in the Championship. At least some of the players would then give the appearance of caring.

In 10 years time the FA will still be starting a plan to build a squad capable of winning a world cup....

Sanguine
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 24783
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 05 Sep 2017 10:12

I don't believe in any other major European country would Rashford be struggling to win starts at his club - read down the teamsheets at Bundesliga or La Liga clubs and you find predominantly domestic players. No way that the likes of Rooney or Owen would be getting the gametime now that they did when they broke through at 16 and 17. Raheem Sterling's rapid rise from youth-team player to starter at Liverpool was purely down to Brendan Rodger's faith in him. He picked him. In Italy Donnarumma is now established in the Milan goal - in England he'd be doing a Jack Butland tour of loan spells and not yet be capped.

BR2
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2138
Joined: 06 Oct 2006 13:53
Location: Bournemouth & Ringwood

Re: England - the future....

by BR2 » 05 Sep 2017 12:56

Sanguine I don't believe in any other major European country would Rashford be struggling to win starts at his club - read down the teamsheets at Bundesliga or La Liga clubs and you find predominantly domestic players. No way that the likes of Rooney or Owen would be getting the gametime now that they did when they broke through at 16 and 17. Raheem Sterling's rapid rise from youth-team player to starter at Liverpool was purely down to Brendan Rodger's faith in him. He picked him. In Italy Donnarumma is now established in the Milan goal - in England he'd be doing a Jack Butland tour of loan spells and not yet be capped.


It seems as though in the past countries like Italy and Spain got the balance about right by mixing star foreign players with their own so that not only were the club sides successful but the national sides as well.
The hope in England has always been that by bringing in foreign players who are near the top (usually just below the very top as the cream still go to Spain) would lead to our youngsters learning from those "stars" and thereby improving their own game which in turn would mean their own standards rising and that of the national side that they play for.
It hasn't happened.

Are our young players less dedicated to the job than some of their foreign counterparts?
Are they too comfortable too early financially leading to stunted ambition?
Are they subject to too much dreadful coaching as kids (e.g. learning more about playing offside than developing skills as 9 year olds so that dad as the coach can boast of a 1-0 victory)?
Do we still encourage more the bigger kids at professional clubs and look to power rather than skill?

I really don't know what the answers are to produce a good national side in England-maybe kids just have so many other sports and interests that the pool just doesn't exist?
Is Chalobah the only young midfielder seriously pushing for a place in the England side?
Is there such a dearth of strikers that old man Defoe is included in our current squad?
Is playing for your club more important than playing for your country?

At last fans appear to have voted last night that the national side does not warrant all that hard-earned cash being spent on something that is not very entertaining-ironically the game I thought was much more entertaining than many in recent years.

Stranded
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 19579
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 12:42
Location: Propping up the bar in the Nags

Re: England - the future....

by Stranded » 06 Sep 2017 12:52

Sanguine I don't believe in any other major European country would Rashford be struggling to win starts at his club - read down the teamsheets at Bundesliga or La Liga clubs and you find predominantly domestic players. No way that the likes of Rooney or Owen would be getting the gametime now that they did when they broke through at 16 and 17. Raheem Sterling's rapid rise from youth-team player to starter at Liverpool was purely down to Brendan Rodger's faith in him. He picked him. In Italy Donnarumma is now established in the Milan goal - in England he'd be doing a Jack Butland tour of loan spells and not yet be capped.


Yep Germany used the embarrassment of not getting out of the group in Euro 2000 as a reason to look at the blueprint of their football and put an onus on clubs producing talent for the national team - the clubs bought into this and the result is plan to see - World Champions and a German reserve team won the Confed Cup.

The other team not to qualify out of Germany's group - England. Who essentially have done nothing to ensure youg talent gets exposure at a first team level. We clearly have an excellent youth set up at the moment (results show that) but bar Everton and maybe 1 or 2 other clubs, the players don't get a chance. Is good to see though that more young players are realising this barrier exists to instead are looking to move abroad either on loan or permanently.

Jadon Sancho has just left City for Dortmund, Chris Willock moving from Arsenal to Benfica being two permanent deals. Kaylon Hinds, Reece Oxford and Ryan Kent also getting good Bundesliga experience.

User avatar
BR0B0T
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 15325
Joined: 08 Nov 2016 23:25

Re: England - the future....

by BR0B0T » 06 Sep 2017 14:43

Stranded
Sanguine I don't believe in any other major European country would Rashford be struggling to win starts at his club - read down the teamsheets at Bundesliga or La Liga clubs and you find predominantly domestic players. No way that the likes of Rooney or Owen would be getting the gametime now that they did when they broke through at 16 and 17. Raheem Sterling's rapid rise from youth-team player to starter at Liverpool was purely down to Brendan Rodger's faith in him. He picked him. In Italy Donnarumma is now established in the Milan goal - in England he'd be doing a Jack Butland tour of loan spells and not yet be capped.


Yep Germany used the embarrassment of not getting out of the group in Euro 2000 as a reason to look at the blueprint of their football and put an onus on clubs producing talent for the national team - the clubs bought into this and the result is plan to see - World Champions and a German reserve team won the Confed Cup.

The other team not to qualify out of Germany's group - England. Who essentially have done nothing to ensure youg talent gets exposure at a first team level. We clearly have an excellent youth set up at the moment (results show that) but bar Everton and maybe 1 or 2 other clubs, the players don't get a chance. Is good to see though that more young players are realising this barrier exists to instead are looking to move abroad either on loan or permanently.

Jadon Sancho has just left City for Dortmund, Chris Willock moving from Arsenal to Benfica being two permanent deals. Kaylon Hinds, Reece Oxford and Ryan Kent also getting good Bundesliga experience.


Unfortunately, it's not possible to go back in time, leave the German system as it was and replay events to see how things would have turned out. There is defo a random element of producing the 5/6 outstanding players that can make a good team 'special' i.e. France 98-06 (bar 2002 iirc), Spain more recently....


User avatar
Vision
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5052
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 20:53

Re: England - the future....

by Vision » 06 Sep 2017 15:33

BR0B0T
Stranded
Sanguine I don't believe in any other major European country would Rashford be struggling to win starts at his club - read down the teamsheets at Bundesliga or La Liga clubs and you find predominantly domestic players. No way that the likes of Rooney or Owen would be getting the gametime now that they did when they broke through at 16 and 17. Raheem Sterling's rapid rise from youth-team player to starter at Liverpool was purely down to Brendan Rodger's faith in him. He picked him. In Italy Donnarumma is now established in the Milan goal - in England he'd be doing a Jack Butland tour of loan spells and not yet be capped.


Yep Germany used the embarrassment of not getting out of the group in Euro 2000 as a reason to look at the blueprint of their football and put an onus on clubs producing talent for the national team - the clubs bought into this and the result is plan to see - World Champions and a German reserve team won the Confed Cup.

The other team not to qualify out of Germany's group - England. Who essentially have done nothing to ensure youg talent gets exposure at a first team level. We clearly have an excellent youth set up at the moment (results show that) but bar Everton and maybe 1 or 2 other clubs, the players don't get a chance. Is good to see though that more young players are realising this barrier exists to instead are looking to move abroad either on loan or permanently.

Jadon Sancho has just left City for Dortmund, Chris Willock moving from Arsenal to Benfica being two permanent deals. Kaylon Hinds, Reece Oxford and Ryan Kent also getting good Bundesliga experience.


Unfortunately, it's not possible to go back in time, leave the German system as it was and replay events to see how things would have turned out. There is defo a random element of producing the 5/6 outstanding players that can make a good team 'special' i.e. France 98-06 (bar 2002 iirc), Spain more recently....


I guess the point is that they (along with those French/Spanish teams) recognised they had those 5/6 players, fast tracked them into the senior squad and they didn't get bogged down with a lack of opportunities in their domestic league.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the U-20 World Championship players and the likes Sanchez and Hudson-Odoi who were both outstanding in the recent U-17 European Championships.

Sanguine
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 24783
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 06 Sep 2017 15:45

I think the key sentence is in Stranded's reply - the clubs (in Germany) bought into it.
I think the situation might get better - Mourinho does rate Rashford and I think by weight of performance he will eventually earn that regular starting berth; and Klopp is clearly someone who will bring young players through - but we won't see the fruits of anything that starts now until Qatar 2022 at the earliest.

User avatar
BR0B0T
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 15325
Joined: 08 Nov 2016 23:25

Re: England - the future....

by BR0B0T » 06 Sep 2017 16:44

We've had our own period reasonably recently where we had a number of quality players come through the system at the same time

The Golden Generation:

Paul Scholes
Frank Lampard....Ballon d'Or(2nd)
Steven Gerrard....Ballon d'Or(3nd)
David Beckham....Ballon d'Or(2nd)
Michael Carrick
Rio Ferdinand
John Terry
Sol Campbell
Gary Neville
Ashley Cole
Michael Owen....Ballon d'Or(winner)
Wayne Rooney

Apart from Owen and Campbell they've CL winners medals

Kieron Dyer
Joe Cole
Gareth Barry
Nicky Butt
Owen Hargreaves
Philip Neville
Jonathan Woodgate
Ledley King
Jamie Carragher
David James
Peter Crouch
Jermain Defoe

User avatar
From Despair To Where?
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 22945
Joined: 19 Apr 2004 08:37
Location: See me in m'pants and ting

Re: England - the future....

by From Despair To Where? » 06 Oct 2017 16:43

Can't help but think that the development of a coherent development strategy is a lower priority for the FA than selling global TV rights for the Premier League.


User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 07 Nov 2017 16:56

So many withdrawals from the England squad now and a really odd decision to call up Keane and now Livermoore when Alli and the rest have dropped out.

Southgate has alluded to wanting to try and evolve the style of play, and bringing Winks and Maguire in to help that but hasn't looked at reintegrating Drinkwater or Wilshire.

Seems daft to me.

User avatar
Vision
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5052
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 20:53

Re: England - the future....

by Vision » 08 Nov 2017 07:44

Hoop Blah So many withdrawals from the England squad now and a really odd decision to call up Keane and now Livermoore when Alli and the rest have dropped out.

Southgate has alluded to wanting to try and evolve the style of play, and bringing Winks and Maguire in to help that but hasn't looked at reintegrating Drinkwater or Wilshire.

Seems daft to me.


He made a rod for his own back by stating in relation to Wilshire that he couldn't be considered for selection because he wasn't playing regularly enough for his club. Drinkwater would fall into the same category. You're right It's utterly daft and frankly England are crying out for something different that Wilshire can bring in midfield but I guess its more important to Southgate to not lose face than to actually pick his best squad.

That said, good to see Jack Cork rewarded with a call up.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 08 Nov 2017 11:54

Vision He made a rod for his own back by stating in relation to Wilshire that he couldn't be considered for selection because he wasn't playing regularly enough for his club. Drinkwater would fall into the same category. You're right It's utterly daft and frankly England are crying out for something different that Wilshire can bring in midfield but I guess its more important to Southgate to not lose face than to actually pick his best squad.

That said, good to see Jack Cork rewarded with a call up.


Agreed, we absolutely need what he can bring.

One quote I read from Southgate re Wilshire implied it wasn't just his recent form, fitness and playing opportunities that were the reason but more his long term resilience. It read like Southgate wants to see that he can trust him to be able to play 3 games in 10 days without breaking down.

He brought Danny Rose back in without much match time of course, but yeah, he basically backed himself into a corner. I like Southgate in many ways, but even with the U21's I thought he talked a good game and then made some really odd decisions along the way.

Drinkwater is an interesting one. I'm not sure how good he is as I've not really watched him that much but it does also feel like he's not that interested in playing for England

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13937
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 09 Nov 2017 16:38

Hoop Blah Drinkwater is an interesting one. I'm not sure how good he is as I've not really watched him that much but it does also feel like he's not that interested in playing for England


Following on from this there are reports today that Drinkwater was asked to join up by Southgate but he said he wasn't fit enough and so turned it down.

I'm sure that's not the first time he's done similar and for me it's disappointing and I'd be a little surprised if he was given much of a chance in the future unless we're struggling in there again.


Greatwesternline
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6234
Joined: 09 Apr 2008 14:36

Re: England - the future....

by Greatwesternline » 10 Nov 2017 11:50

From Despair To Where? Can't help but think that the development of a coherent development strategy is a lower priority for the FA than selling global TV rights for the Premier League.


FA has zero to do with selling PL TV rights

Stranded
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 19579
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 12:42
Location: Propping up the bar in the Nags

Re: England - the future....

by Stranded » 13 Nov 2017 08:00

Vision
Hoop Blah So many withdrawals from the England squad now and a really odd decision to call up Keane and now Livermoore when Alli and the rest have dropped out.

Southgate has alluded to wanting to try and evolve the style of play, and bringing Winks and Maguire in to help that but hasn't looked at reintegrating Drinkwater or Wilshire.

Seems daft to me.


He made a rod for his own back by stating in relation to Wilshire that he couldn't be considered for selection because he wasn't playing regularly enough for his club. Drinkwater would fall into the same category. You're right It's utterly daft and frankly England are crying out for something different that Wilshire can bring in midfield but I guess its more important to Southgate to not lose face than to actually pick his best squad.

That said, good to see Jack Cork rewarded with a call up.


Don't have a problem with his reasoning for not picking Wilshire, he needs to be playing more than Europa League games and 20mins or so in the PL shouldn't be enough to play for England. Would be good for him to move to a 2nd tier PL club in Jan i.e. an Everton or Southampton and look to become a key player there for a year or two - or even move abroad - his play would probably be quite suited to the Spanish or Italian leagues.

Issue some seem to have is that he called up Rose and tried to call up Drinkwater - as both players have been injured it makes sense to give them some slack at the moment but with the caveat that once fully fit, if they aren't playing they won't get in the squad.

double d

Re: England - the future....

by double d » 13 Nov 2017 08:14

I think Rose could be seen as fair enough as he is probably out first choice lb. I wouldn't have Drinkwater near the team to be honest and would rather JW in the squad (he would most likely be a benchwarmer)

Marino13

Re: England - the future....

by Marino13 » 14 Nov 2017 08:34

southgate is doing an excellent job,
that is until they get beaten by brazil
tonight and the knives will be out
immediately.

User avatar
Sutekh
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 18384
Joined: 12 Feb 2014 14:05
Location: Undiscovered pyramid somewhere in Egypt

Re: England - the future....

by Sutekh » 14 Nov 2017 08:40

Marino13 southgate is doing an excellent job,
that is until they get beaten by brazil
tonight and the knives will be out
immediately.


Expectation is Brazil will be more or less full strength. It's going to be a Turkey shoot if Brazil want isn't it... :lol:

Marino13

Re: England - the future....

by Marino13 » 14 Nov 2017 09:18

Sutekh
Marino13 southgate is doing an excellent job,
that is until they get beaten by brazil
tonight and the knives will be out
immediately.


Expectation is Brazil will be more or less full strength. It's going to be a Turkey shoot if Brazil want isn't it... :lol:


yeah! this last week, has seen southgate get the plaudits
for playing younger players (his arm was forced really).
the friendly against the germans was an OK result.
some good performances for england. but you just know,
come the wc, those german players will perform and ours
will crumble under the pressure.
i obviously hope that isn't the case, but history would
suggest so.

User avatar
bcubed
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11434
Joined: 30 Oct 2004 18:16
Location: Would do better with a stick of rhubarb

Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 14 Nov 2017 12:10

I think England might
do
ok
tonight
They were pretty good against
Germany
I
thought

3564 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 63 guests

It is currently 28 Mar 2024 10:08