England’s World Cup Finals 2018

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Sutekh
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England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Sutekh » 02 Jun 2018 20:04

Thinking to keep a separate dedicated thread for England’s World Cup build up, games and other escapades rather than having it lost in the general WC thread.

So an OK performance against two different Nigeria’s sees a first half win over a lack lustre not really at the races Nigeria and a second half defeat to a much more lively and with it Nigeria. Not sure what GS or anyone can have learned from that though.

And looking back at England’s record in finals since 1990 it is generally depressing, though consistent:

1990 : WC - semi final defeat on penalties to West Germany
1992 : Euros - failed to get out of group
1996 : Euros - semi final defeat on penalties to Germany
1998 : WC - last 16 defeat on penalties to Argentina
2000 : Euros - failed to get out of group
2002 : WC - quarter final defeat to Brazil
2004 : Euros - quarter final defeat on penalties to Portugal
2006 : WC - quarter final defeat on penalties to Portugal
2010 : WC - quarter final defeat to Germany
2012 : Euros - quarter final defeat on penalties to Italy
2014 : WC - failed to get out of group
2016 : Euros - last 16 defeat to Iceland

Played 7 penalty shoot outs in finals and lost 6 of them. Has to be the worst record of those teams that have benn in them from 1990 onwards.

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Deadlock
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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Deadlock » 02 Jun 2018 20:54

What I learned from today is that the England band is still really annoying, ITV commentators are still really shit, and I picked the wrong half to watch.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by AthleticoSpizz » 03 Jun 2018 00:03

What I learnt was Sterling will never win us another penalty....what a chump

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by 6ft Kerplunk » 04 Jun 2018 09:22

Deadlock wrote:ITV commentators are still really shit


How does Hoddle stay in a job? For someone that was supposed to be such a good coach he's amazingly shite at giving any kind of insight. The commentator is there to tell us what's going on Glenn, you're supposed to give us explain the tactics a bit and point out stuff we wouldn't necessarily spot not suck the life out of any match.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Sanguine » 04 Jun 2018 10:19

I liked our movement and fluidity in the first half - all went a bit off the boil in the second, but some positives, and we got the win.


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genome
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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by genome » 04 Jun 2018 12:28

AthleticoSpizz wrote:What I learnt was Sterling will never win us another penalty....what a chump


I blame his tattoo.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Old Man Andrews » 04 Jun 2018 12:31

genome wrote:
AthleticoSpizz wrote:What I learnt was Sterling will never win us another penalty....what a chump


I blame his tattoo.


It is reasonably ironic that he went down as if someone had shot him.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by genome » 04 Jun 2018 12:33

Old Man Andrews wrote:
genome wrote:
AthleticoSpizz wrote:What I learnt was Sterling will never win us another penalty....what a chump


I blame his tattoo.


It is reasonably ironic that he went down as if someone had shot him.


I actually think that, had he not dived and continued running forward, the goalie would’ve actually fouled him and it would’ve been a penalty.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Old Man Andrews » 04 Jun 2018 13:17

genome wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:
genome wrote:
I blame his tattoo.


It is reasonably ironic that he went down as if someone had shot him.


I actually think that, had he not dived and continued running forward, the goalie would’ve actually fouled him and it would’ve been a penalty.


Yep agreed. Should have just continued his run and win an easy pen. Besides Kane I don't think we have anyone with that sort of nous in and around the box.


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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by stealthpapes » 04 Jun 2018 15:18

Played 7 penalty shoot outs in finals and lost 6 of them. Has to be the worst record of those teams that have benn in them from 1990 onwards.


They're a lottery so one day, surely, our luck will change.

Endless :roll: and :| at PFM ensue.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Hoop Blah » 07 Jun 2018 13:05

stealthpapes wrote:
Played 7 penalty shoot outs in finals and lost 6 of them. Has to be the worst record of those teams that have benn in them from 1990 onwards.


They're a lottery so one day, surely, our luck will change.

Endless :roll: and :| at PFM ensue.


Thankfully the FA and Southgate aren't the ones repeating that mantra and I read a while back about a lot of work they did with (IIRC) the U20s in order to prepare them (successfully) for any penalty shootouts. I've read a few more bits recently that suggests that they're doing a lot of work on how to prepare mentally and physically for penalties.

Fingers crossed!

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Sanguine » 07 Jun 2018 13:07

Hoop Blah wrote:
stealthpapes wrote:
Played 7 penalty shoot outs in finals and lost 6 of them. Has to be the worst record of those teams that have benn in them from 1990 onwards.


They're a lottery so one day, surely, our luck will change.

Endless :roll: and :| at PFM ensue.


Thankfully the FA and Southgate aren't the ones repeating that mantra and I read a while back about a lot of work they did with (IIRC) the U20s in order to prepare them (successfully) for any penalty shootouts. I've read a few more bits recently that suggests that they're doing a lot of work on how to prepare mentally and physically for penalties.

Fingers crossed!


indeed. Even Pickford has been practising taking them, apparently.

Had a look at our overall record the other day - it's not just the full side that are awful, our youth sides have won just 1 of 5, and our women's team have lost all 3 they have taken part in!

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by stealthpapes » 07 Jun 2018 13:41

Asked how he’s been preparing for any penalty shoot-out, Pickford explained: “It’s about how the taker’s looking at it, body language, where his shoulders or arms are... and sometimes you’ve just got to pick a side, wait and attack it.

“If you get there you get there and if you don’t, get the next one. If you save a couple, you can be a hero but there’s no pressure on you.”

Pickford said penalties are also “pot luck”


sigh.


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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by stealthpapes » 07 Jun 2018 13:45

That said, if England do take on lessons from sport science, psychology etc and finally crack this particular knot, then fair play.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Sanguine » 07 Jun 2018 13:54

stealthpapes wrote:
Asked how he’s been preparing for any penalty shoot-out, Pickford explained: “It’s about how the taker’s looking at it, body language, where his shoulders or arms are... and sometimes you’ve just got to pick a side, wait and attack it.

“If you get there you get there and if you don’t, get the next one. If you save a couple, you can be a hero but there’s no pressure on you.”

Pickford said penalties are also “pot luck”


sigh.


Yes, sigh and all that, but as good as we get there will always be an element, however small, of luck. If the keeper guesses the right way, he's 50% of the way there.

I watched a video recently that analysed Eden Hazard's penalties, I'll try to find it, but in short it showed the key (barely perceptible, even slowed down) differences between his kicking technique, including front foot placement and angle, for a penalty to each of the left and the right.

Best thing about penalties of course is failed Panenkas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdu5pweeDiI

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by genome » 07 Jun 2018 14:02

This will always be the best worst penalty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l_QmTEoPdk

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by savage 4 england » 07 Jun 2018 15:44

2010 WC was a second round exit.

Think we will manage to get to the quarters with some lacklustre displays. Probably going out to Germany 1-0.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by BR0B0T » 07 Jun 2018 15:45

stealthpapes wrote:
Asked how he’s been preparing for any penalty shoot-out, Pickford explained: “It’s about how the taker’s looking at it, body language, where his shoulders or arms are... and sometimes you’ve just got to pick a side, wait and attack it.

“If you get there you get there and if you don’t, get the next one. If you save a couple, you can be a hero but there’s no pressure on you.”

Pickford said penalties are also “pot luck”


sigh.


tbf he's talking from the goalie's perspective

tiny distribution to 'pre' evaluate placement

body language and angle of run the only additional evidence...the opponent is also doing his best to disguise this

In reality, the goalie is going to choose a side to dive so baseline predictor is 50%

...penalty (non shootout) goal expectation is 0.8

I was going somewhere with this but lost train of thought blah blah...etc

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Sanguine » 07 Jun 2018 16:25

BR0B0T wrote:
stealthpapes wrote:
Asked how he’s been preparing for any penalty shoot-out, Pickford explained: “It’s about how the taker’s looking at it, body language, where his shoulders or arms are... and sometimes you’ve just got to pick a side, wait and attack it.

“If you get there you get there and if you don’t, get the next one. If you save a couple, you can be a hero but there’s no pressure on you.”

Pickford said penalties are also “pot luck”


sigh.


tbf he's talking from the goalie's perspective

tiny distribution to 'pre' evaluate placement

body language and angle of run the only additional evidence...the opponent is also doing his best to disguise this

In reality, the goalie is going to choose a side to dive so baseline predictor is 50%

...penalty (non shootout) goal expectation is 0.8

I was going somewhere with this but lost train of thought blah blah...etc


Essentially, when he chooses the right way, he still doesn't save it half the time, owing to placement/power.

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Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Snowflake Royal » 07 Jun 2018 22:26

Sanguine wrote:
stealthpapes wrote:
Asked how he’s been preparing for any penalty shoot-out, Pickford explained: “It’s about how the taker’s looking at it, body language, where his shoulders or arms are... and sometimes you’ve just got to pick a side, wait and attack it.

“If you get there you get there and if you don’t, get the next one. If you save a couple, you can be a hero but there’s no pressure on you.”

Pickford said penalties are also “pot luck”


sigh.


Yes, sigh and all that, but as good as we get there will always be an element, however small, of luck. If the keeper guesses the right way, he's 50% of the way there.

I watched a video recently that analysed Eden Hazard's penalties, I'll try to find it, but in short it showed the key (barely perceptible, even slowed down) differences between his kicking technique, including front foot placement and angle, for a penalty to each of the left and the right.

Best thing about penalties of course is failed Panenkas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdu5pweeDiI

It's not one side or the other though is it, the taker can stick it down the middle too. And you can't cover high and low well at the same time.

I think you can forgive Pickford for that as it really is difficult for goalies with little to go on, but if that's the attitude the manager and the outfielders have as well, well if we get in a penalty shoot-out it's not pot luck, it's probably out, because our prep will have been poor.


On a separate thought, I was really impressed with Delph against Costa Rica... a relatively easy game of course, and only a friendly, but his energy levels were great, his movement to show for the ball was great, he was positive, he was solid. Would have been my man of the match, I thought he was virtually faultless despite a few close calls in posession.

I've not see a lot of England (there's not a lot to see tbf) or a lot of the players in the PL, but based on what I have seen and in particular the last 135 minutes of England I'd start:
.........................Butland
............Stones, Cahill, Maguire
Walker.........Henderson.........Rose
................Alli................Delph
...................Kane....Rashford

Obviously it looks very unlikely that Walker will be playing at RWB given the inclusion of Trippier and Alexander-Arnold, but I just prefer a bit of experience in that back three from Cahill and actual CBs. Alli being the choice I'm least happy with.

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