Racism in football (John Terry spin-off)

[Extended-Phenotype]

He knows his way around an umlaut though.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Wonderful discussion on R5L that included Joey Barton and Jason Roberts* representing Kick It Out

The discussion was about whether black managers aren't getting a chance or whether there simply aren't many even taking their badges.

Joey Barton: We need to see the proper figures on ethnic minorities taking coaching badges. We can only have a proper conversation on the subject when we've seen the data

Jason Roberts*: The problem with looking at the data is that it will distract from the real problem, and that is black managers not getting jobs


Just



*I think, sounded like him anyway

[AthleticoSpizz]

once again (and I can't be bothered with digging out the mathematicals)......and not so sure right now............but a couple of years ago..............we are adequately represented in football management by "ethnics" by proportion of the UK populace

[John Madejski's Wallet]

once again (and I can't be bothered with digging out the mathematicals)......and not so sure right now............but a couple of years ago..............we are adequately represented in football management by "ethnics" by proportion of the UK populace

Not by % of those involved in football though, which is their beef

Though we do need the UEFA pro licence stats to really understand

[tmesis]

Part of the problem, in my opinion, stems from the use of the word "racism" in this issue.

It causes an element of denial, as the term implies the reason for a lack of black managers is that chairman are actively saying "I don't want a black man as manager" or "I don't want a black man as coach".

While I'd not be certain that never happens, it's far more likely is managers are hired either by reputation, or because the aspiring manager fits in with the stereotype the chairman has of what sort of person a good manager will be - and the black manager is less likely to fit that stereotype.

There is also resistance to having a football version of the "Rooney rule" through the mistaken belief that it would mean that clubs would be forced to hire a black coach/manager over better qualified candidates, due to having to meet a quota.

There is no quota. The ruling merely says black/minority candidates must be interviewed for the role. I think if people realised this, there'd be a lot less resistance to it.

[Ouroboros]

the aspiring manager fits in with the stereotype the chairman has of what sort of person a good manager will be - and the black manager is less likely to fit that stereotype.

Sounds like racism to me.

And if people don't think so then I'd suggest what's needed is a dictionary, not a change in terminology.

[tmesis]

the aspiring manager fits in with the stereotype the chairman has of what sort of person a good manager will be - and the black manager is less likely to fit that stereotype.

Sounds like racism to me.

And if people don't think so then I'd suggest what's needed is a dictionary, not a change in terminology.

It'd be a strange dictionary to call that racism.

Prejudice, yes, but you can feel prejudiced to many groups of people without disliking them or thinking them inferior. Racism implies they actively wouldn't wan't them as a manager.

It's not even that they might think black managers wouldn't be good. It's that other types will more readily fit the cliche in their head.


The point is if your try and spearhead your campaign by insisting that black managers aren't being hired because chairmen don't like black people, it instantly puts people on a defensive footing, and that makes progress difficult. They'll be fighting the accusation that they've turned down or not interviewed black managers who've been best for the job, because they'll genuinely feel that they haven't, and feel insulted by the accusation.

[Ouroboros]

So it is prejudice on racial grounds, but it's not racism. Ok then

I think if would be best if the racial majority realised that racism can happen without anyone hating black people, though our unconscious prejudices. Then they might not shout Jason Roberts down when he complains about it.

Prejudice on racial grounds being the definition of racism, conscious or otherwise.

[sandman]

In what sort of Bizarro World would you consider prejudice on the grounds of skin colour to be Racism?

As said above, you don't have to go around screaming P*** or N***** to discriminate against people in an Ethnic minority.

[Pepe the Horseman]

In what sort of Bizarro World would you consider prejudice on the grounds of skin colour to be Racism?

As said above, you don't have to go around screaming P*** or N***** to discriminate against people in an Ethnic minority.

But it certainly helps.

[Extended-Phenotype]

the aspiring manager fits in with the stereotype the chairman has of what sort of person a good manager will be - and the black manager is less likely to fit that stereotype.

Sounds like racism to me.

And if people don't think so then I'd suggest what's needed is a dictionary, not a change in terminology.

It'd be a strange dictionary to call that racism.

Prejudice, yes, but you can feel prejudiced to many groups of people without disliking them or thinking them inferior. Racism implies they actively wouldn't wan't them as a manager.

It's not even that they might think black managers wouldn't be good. It's that other types will more readily fit the cliche in their head.


The point is if your try and spearhead your campaign by insisting that black managers aren't being hired because chairmen don't like black people, it instantly puts people on a defensive footing, and that makes progress difficult. They'll be fighting the accusation that they've turned down or not interviewed black managers who've been best for the job, because they'll genuinely feel that they haven't, and feel insulted by the accusation.

Yeah, don't worry about the black folk - it's the feelings of racists we need to consider.

[No Fixed Abode]

Some people, no matter how well qualified, will never be able to work in a particular role (we'll never have a black prime minister for example).

I think this is overly pessimistic. If America can have a black president, then we can have a black Prime Minister.

William Hill will give you 20-1 for Chuck Umunna to follow David Cameron.

And he would only be given the job, not necessarily as the best candidate, but to make this Country look politically correct.

[Froomes]

Some people, no matter how well qualified, will never be able to work in a particular role (we'll never have a black prime minister for example).

I think this is overly pessimistic. If America can have a black president, then we can have a black Prime Minister.

William Hill will give you 20-1 for Chuck Umunna to follow David Cameron.

And he would only be given the job, not necessarily as the best candidate, but to make this Country look politically correct.

I would actually disagree with that, from the interviews I've seen with him he's a far more competent candidate than Red Ed. And after the next election I fully expect to see his stock rise quite sharply.

[Brum Royal]

I think part of the problem stems from the fact we are yet to see a BME manager be successful at the highest level in English football. I realise that is partly rel8d to the numbers, but a lot of the BME managers so far haven't proved to be a great success despite being given a number of bites at the cherry - Paul Ince is a particular example of this. Chris Powell seems to be doing a decent job, certainly he did at Charlton, and it is too early to judge in his tenure at 'Uddersfield. I think there's been a list of the BME managers higher up the thread, but I'm struggling to think of names beyond:

Paul Ince - failed at Blackburn and Blackpool
Terry Connor - given a tough task which always seemed doomed to fail at Wolves, was always more of a coach, not sure we can really judge him on that
Keith Curle - has he managed in the league yet? Or just Mansfield?
Chris Powell - good spell at Charlton, now at 'Uddersfield.
Chris Hughton - did well at Newcastle before being removed after promotion.

It's not exactly a long list is it?

[tmesis]

So it is prejudice on racial grounds, but it's not racism. Ok then

I think if would be best if the racial majority realised that racism can happen without anyone hating black people, though our unconscious prejudices. Then they might not shout Jason Roberts down when he complains about it.

Racism and prejudice (even racial prejudice) are not the same thing.

Everybody has prejudices. The black guy who assumes a white guy won't give him a fair crack of the whip is prejudiced, because's he's judging people by what he assumes people of that skin colour will be like. That doesn't mean he's a racist.

Prejudice on racial grounds being the definition of racism, conscious or otherwise.

That's not true. Look it up in a dictionary.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Prejudice is your instinct, your gut feeling. It's pretty much subconscious.

Racism does imply an active dislike, where people will discriminate consciously on grounds of race.

It's because of that that I say that saying it's racism keeping black managers/coaches out of the game doesn't help. It makes people who genuinely feel they aren't discriminating feel insulted, and puts them in denial about the fact that they probably are discriminating, even if they aren't aware of it.

It's got nothing to do with not wanting to hurt their feelings. It's about recognising that people are rarely open towards people who hurl unsubstantiated accusations at them.

[tmesis]

I think part of the problem stems from the fact we are yet to see a BME manager be successful at the highest level in English football. I realise that is partly rel8d to the numbers, but a lot of the BME managers so far haven't proved to be a great success despite being given a number of bites at the cherry - Paul Ince is a particular example of this. Chris Powell seems to be doing a decent job, certainly he did at Charlton, and it is too early to judge in his tenure at 'Uddersfield. I think there's been a list of the BME managers higher up the thread, but I'm struggling to think of names beyond:

Paul Ince - failed at Blackburn and Blackpool
Terry Connor - given a tough task which always seemed doomed to fail at Wolves, was always more of a coach, not sure we can really judge him on that
Keith Curle - has he managed in the league yet? Or just Mansfield?
Chris Powell - good spell at Charlton, now at 'Uddersfield.
Chris Hughton - did well at Newcastle before being removed after promotion.

It's not exactly a long list is it?

I think that's a huge part of the problem.

It makes no more sense to judge the ability of a potential black manager on the record of other black managers than it does to base the ability of a potential Scottish manager on other Scottish managers, but deliberately or not, I'm sure people do. The potential Scottish manager is far more likely to fit into a chairman's image of what a manager should be, just because there have been a lot of respected Scottish managers.

[Ouroboros]

That's not true. Look it up in a dictionary.

Ok.

Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2: racial prejudice or discrimination

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

[Extended-Phenotype]

I think part of the problem stems from the fact we are yet to see a BME manager be successful at the highest level in English football. I realise that is partly rel8d to the numbers, but a lot of the BME managers so far haven't proved to be a great success despite being given a number of bites at the cherry - Paul Ince is a particular example of this. Chris Powell seems to be doing a decent job, certainly he did at Charlton, and it is too early to judge in his tenure at 'Uddersfield. I think there's been a list of the BME managers higher up the thread, but I'm struggling to think of names beyond:

Paul Ince - failed at Blackburn and Blackpool
Terry Connor - given a tough task which always seemed doomed to fail at Wolves, was always more of a coach, not sure we can really judge him on that
Keith Curle - has he managed in the league yet? Or just Mansfield?
Chris Powell - good spell at Charlton, now at 'Uddersfield.
Chris Hughton - did well at Newcastle before being removed after promotion.

It's not exactly a long list is it?

Bet I could list 5 shit white managers.

[Sutekh]

Keith Curle - has he managed in the league yet? Or just Mansfield?

2002–2005 Mansfield Town (player-manager)
2005–2006 Chester City
2007 Torquay United (replaced by Leroy Rosenior)
2012–2013 Notts County
2014- Carlisle United

Between 2007 and 2012 hs was part of Colin's management team at Palace and QPR

[SPARTA]

I think part of the problem stems from the fact we are yet to see a BME manager be successful at the highest level in English football. I realise that is partly rel8d to the numbers, but a lot of the BME managers so far haven't proved to be a great success despite being given a number of bites at the cherry - Paul Ince is a particular example of this. Chris Powell seems to be doing a decent job, certainly he did at Charlton, and it is too early to judge in his tenure at 'Uddersfield. I think there's been a list of the BME managers higher up the thread, but I'm struggling to think of names beyond:

Paul Ince - failed at Blackburn and Blackpool
Terry Connor - given a tough task which always seemed doomed to fail at Wolves, was always more of a coach, not sure we can really judge him on that
Keith Curle - has he managed in the league yet? Or just Mansfield?
Chris Powell - good spell at Charlton, now at 'Uddersfield.
Chris Hughton - did well at Newcastle before being removed after promotion.

It's not exactly a long list is it?

Leroy Rosenior.