VAR

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Stranded
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Re: VAR

by Stranded » 28 Mar 2018 09:02

Jack Celliers With the pause to kill the moment after England scored and the 50/50 penalty award for Italy, that's another game spoilt by VAR. The sooner it dies a death the better.


Not sure how it killed the moment after England scored as the whole team were off celebrating and was barely any delay in restarting.

Pen was a pen but VAR took to long again.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 28 Mar 2018 09:18

There was no pause after the England goal - the referee was in communication with the video official whilst the England players were celebrating, and one player from each side spoke to him.

The penalty decision was correct, and only took as long as it did because the clown operating the TV couldn't lift it into position.

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 28 Mar 2018 10:09

Sanguine The penalty decision was correct, and only took as long as it did because the clown operating the TV couldn't lift it into position.


Do you think it was a clear and obvious error though?

I'm not sure it was a pen myself, partly because I'm biased of course, but to me the forward was already going down because he knew he'd lost the ball and it was more a coming together than a foul.

If it was the other way around then I may well feel differently, but I just don't see how it was a clear and obvious error which, so we're told, is all that VAR is supposed to cover.

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Re: VAR

by Jack Celliers » 28 Mar 2018 10:35

Stranded
Jack Celliers With the pause to kill the moment after England scored and the 50/50 penalty award for Italy, that's another game spoilt by VAR. The sooner it dies a death the better.


Not sure how it killed the moment after England scored as the whole team were off celebrating and was barely any delay in restarting.

Pen was a pen but VAR took to long again.


When replays of the goal were being shown, somebody in the commentary team mentioned that the ball might have been rolling. It turned out it wasn't, but it was enough to spoil the pure undiluted joy I want to feel when a goal goes in. A goal in football is a wonderful thing. VAR spoils the moment.

It might have been a penalty, but the referee hadn't given it although he was only ten yards away from the offence when it happened. If you go for a slow motion replay on that, then why not look at slow motion replays every time the ball goes into the air from a corner or whenever there is a tackle. If VAR does catch on there will be more fouls and penalties and possibly more official guidelines on what constitutes a foul. There will be less tackling and in general football won't be as good. At the moment, football is about 100 times better than rugby to watch. VAR seems like an effort to close the gap.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 28 Mar 2018 10:57

Hoop Blah
Sanguine The penalty decision was correct, and only took as long as it did because the clown operating the TV couldn't lift it into position.


Do you think it was a clear and obvious error though?

I'm not sure it was a pen myself, partly because I'm biased of course, but to me the forward was already going down because he knew he'd lost the ball and it was more a coming together than a foul.

If it was the other way around then I may well feel differently, but I just don't see how it was a clear and obvious error which, so we're told, is all that VAR is supposed to cover.


I think it was, to be honest. Yes, there was a hint of the striker going down a little early, but contact was inevitable, and occurred, and as far as I recall no England player touched the ball. I think the lack of protest on England's part said a lot.


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Re: VAR

by Hendo » 28 Mar 2018 11:36

If VAR was only used for black and white decisions, goal line, offside, contested corners etc... there wouldn't be this debate and I am sure everyone would be happy.

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 28 Mar 2018 11:43

Sanguine I think it was, to be honest. Yes, there was a hint of the striker going down a little early, but contact was inevitable, and occurred, and as far as I recall no England player touched the ball. I think the lack of protest on England's part said a lot.


The best bit about VAR for me is that the player can't really protest as they know the ref has had a good look at it and considered more evidence than the players have seen.

A few players, and Southgate for that matter, have said since that they didn't think it was a penalty though.

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Re: VAR

by double d » 28 Mar 2018 11:45

Hendo If VAR was only used for black and white decisions, goal line, offside, contested corners etc... there wouldn't be this debate and I am sure everyone would be happy.


If it was the other way round (world cup 1/4 final, last 5 minutes and we get a penalty to draw the game) nobody would complain

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 28 Mar 2018 11:47

Hendo If VAR was only used for black and white decisions, goal line, offside, contested corners etc... there wouldn't be this debate and I am sure everyone would be happy.


Offside isn't a black and white decision, but I agree with your wider point.

If VAR was just to avoid the mistakes, like the Henry handball, the Zidane headbutt or the phantom goal at Watford then it would be less of an issue. It would also be less useful too though!

I'm still not convinced it brings any real benefit to the game.


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Re: VAR

by Hendo » 28 Mar 2018 11:50

double d
Hendo If VAR was only used for black and white decisions, goal line, offside, contested corners etc... there wouldn't be this debate and I am sure everyone would be happy.


If it was the other way round (world cup 1/4 final, last 5 minutes and we get a penalty to draw the game) nobody would complain


We'd miss it anyway, but I don't think it would sit right with me as you would have the world's press going on about how England only got through or got a result on a dodgy call, that everyone couldn't agree on.

If the ball goes over the line, its a goal, you can't argue that. If a player is between the last defender and the 'keeper, its offside. Those decisions are black and white and clear cut. Although I think some element of human error should be considered when giving very, very tight offside decisions (much like umpire's call in cricket) as it can be so marginal that a human just can't see it.

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Re: VAR

by Hendo » 28 Mar 2018 11:53

Hoop Blah
Hendo If VAR was only used for black and white decisions, goal line, offside, contested corners etc... there wouldn't be this debate and I am sure everyone would be happy.


Offside isn't a black and white decision, but I agree with your wider point.

If VAR was just to avoid the mistakes, like the Henry handball, the Zidane headbutt or the phantom goal at Watford then it would be less of an issue. It would also be less useful too though!

I'm still not convinced it brings any real benefit to the game.


Yeah, I didn't word it particularly well, explained a bit more in my next post :)

For me, it just seems that football are doing it for the sake of doing it and trying to correct every decision, that might lead to a goal, not a decision that will lead to a goal.

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Re: VAR

by Silver Fox » 28 Mar 2018 12:20

Have they defined exactly what situations VAR will be used for? I keep hearing "Oh, they won't use it for such and such" but if you did a list would "ball possibly moving while taking a free kick" be on it? Or is it just, we'll review anything we fancy?

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Re: VAR

by Whore Jackie » 28 Mar 2018 12:44

Silver Fox Have they defined exactly what situations VAR will be used for? I keep hearing "Oh, they won't use it for such and such" but if you did a list would "ball possibly moving while taking a free kick" be on it? Or is it just, we'll review anything we fancy?


FIFA When are VARs used?
Three main incidents (plus one administrative) have been identified as game-changing:

GOALS
The role of the VARs is to assist the referee to determine whether there was an infringement that means a goal should not be awarded. As the ball has crossed the line, play is interrupted so there is no direct impact on the game.

PENALTY DECISIONS
The role of the VAR is to ensure that no clearly wrong decisions are made in conjunction with the award or non-award of a penalty kick.

RED CARD INCIDENTS
The role of the VAR is to ensure that no clearly wrong decisions are made in conjunction with sending off or not sending off a player.

MISTAKEN IDENTITY
The referee cautions or sends off the wrong player, or is unsure which player should be sanctioned. The VARs will inform the referee so that the correct player can be disciplined.


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Re: VAR

by paultheroyal » 28 Mar 2018 16:05

Hendo If VAR was only used for black and white decisions, goal line, offside, contested corners etc... there wouldn't be this debate and I am sure everyone would be happy.


Agreed - its as simple as that. Its all getting ridiculous and last night a taste of the horror show to come.

Keep it to a matter of fact - job done.

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Re: VAR

by Platypuss » 28 Mar 2018 20:40

People are losing their shit about VAR affecting the enjoyment levels in an England friendly?

#partridgeshrugjif

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Re: VAR

by tmesis » 28 Mar 2018 21:03

Sanguine
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Sanguine The penalty decision was correct, and only took as long as it did because the clown operating the TV couldn't lift it into position.


Do you think it was a clear and obvious error though?

I'm not sure it was a pen myself, partly because I'm biased of course, but to me the forward was already going down because he knew he'd lost the ball and it was more a coming together than a foul.

If it was the other way around then I may well feel differently, but I just don't see how it was a clear and obvious error which, so we're told, is all that VAR is supposed to cover.


I think it was, to be honest. Yes, there was a hint of the striker going down a little early, but contact was inevitable, and occurred, and as far as I recall no England player touched the ball. I think the lack of protest on England's part said a lot.


It's weird that so many now just accept that contact = foul, despite there being nothing in the rules to say that's true.

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Re: VAR

by genome » 29 Mar 2018 08:53

Platypuss People are losing their shit about VAR affecting the enjoyment levels in an England friendly?

#partridgeshrugjif


I don’t think it’s that. It’s more concern for what it’s going to do for the World Cup.

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 29 Mar 2018 09:08

genome
Platypuss People are losing their shit about VAR affecting the enjoyment levels in an England friendly?

#partridgeshrugjif


I don’t think it’s that. It’s more concern for what it’s going to do for the World Cup.


Absolutely, I can't see anyone losing their shit over it, merely an ongoing discussion about how VAR is shaping up and how it will impact on the game longer term.

This is, in effect, still a pilot of the whole process to see if it's something worth keeping. My worry for the World Cup is that we've seen some real teething problems with it's use over the last few months and they're going to have a load of officials picking it up for the first time in the World Cup and so it has potential to be rather painful.

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Re: VAR

by Stranded » 29 Mar 2018 09:27

Whore Jackie
Silver Fox Have they defined exactly what situations VAR will be used for? I keep hearing "Oh, they won't use it for such and such" but if you did a list would "ball possibly moving while taking a free kick" be on it? Or is it just, we'll review anything we fancy?


FIFA When are VARs used?
Three main incidents (plus one administrative) have been identified as game-changing:

GOALS
The role of the VARs is to assist the referee to determine whether there was an infringement that means a goal should not be awarded. As the ball has crossed the line, play is interrupted so there is no direct impact on the game.

PENALTY DECISIONS
The role of the VAR is to ensure that no clearly wrong decisions are made in conjunction with the award or non-award of a penalty kick.

RED CARD INCIDENTS
The role of the VAR is to ensure that no clearly wrong decisions are made in conjunction with sending off or not sending off a player.

MISTAKEN IDENTITY
The referee cautions or sends off the wrong player, or is unsure which player should be sanctioned. The VARs will inform the referee so that the correct player can be disciplined.


I think the problem there is the wording "clearly wrong decisions", at the moment it is easy to argue that it is being used as reference on decisions that perhaps in the grey area. For example, the penalty for Italy was a pen for me but was not giving it clearly wrong? VAR is currently giving refs doubt and allowing them to just go and check that. In those situations, the VAR Ref should simply make the call and say "Mate, you couldn't see it but Player A was fouled in that instant - penalty". Or the reverse "He's definitely dived there, reverse your decision and book player for simulation"-

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 29 Mar 2018 09:47

Stranded I think the problem there is the wording "clearly wrong decisions", at the moment it is easy to argue that it is being used as reference on decisions that perhaps in the grey area. For example, the penalty for Italy was a pen for me but was not giving it clearly wrong? VAR is currently giving refs doubt and allowing them to just go and check that. In those situations, the VAR Ref should simply make the call and say "Mate, you couldn't see it but Player A was fouled in that instant - penalty". Or the reverse "He's definitely dived there, reverse your decision and book player for simulation"-


I agree to an extent, but that's where the issue of subjectivity and opinion comes into it. The ref, having looked at that footage for the Italy pen, might've easily said it wasn't a penalty* as it was just a coming together of their feet and not a foul. The VAR Ref can't make that call for the real ref and undermine him.

* Mark Halsey says it shouldn't have been a pen (http://you-are-the-ref.com/england-1-italy-1-reaction-was-that-clear-and-obvious/)

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