The only course of action now...

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leon
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Re: The only course of action now...

by leon » 15 Feb 2018 00:41

Denver Royal wrote:
Hoop Blah wrote:Where should this club be? I'd suggest we should be comfortably in the top 10 of an typical strength Championship.

You disregard the element of entertainment, but that is a massive part of what we as fans want from our team.


Hoop Blah, you have some good thoughts there, as usual. It's been a while.

If we are going to be a 'Comfortably Top 10 team' in the Champ these days, and that is the expectation of the entire fanbase every season, then we are going to need to get back on track. Because, prior to 3rd last year under Stam, we finished 19th and 17th the two seasons prior to that. We likely won't be top 10 this season, either. And right now I'm not even convinced we'll even be top 10 next year, either. Obviously we'll wait and see what happens over the Summer personnel wise. I'm also unsure to what extent the new owners are going to back us, relative to other teams. So, we will see how it plays out in the coming seasons and whether we re-establish ourselves as such a team.

I agree the element of entertainment is massive, at least for this fanbase anyway. And its tough to argue against that, logically. However, I get the feeling the entertainment aspect is less of an issue at some other clubs.

I was wondering about our plan for PL. Our managers are criticized pursuant to that. I made a post the other day about Burnley, and whether our model would or should look at all like their's, if we got promoted to PL. We maybe approximate their size a bit, and they have done well in PL since their promotion. But I also pointed to their style of play, questioned how 'entertaining and exciting' it all is, how so very few goals they score, esp at home, that their games are almost always 1-0s, etc, their managers demeanor and personality, etc, and I wondered how well their type of success and their model would be embraced and sit with us as fans here.

Where does it leave us right now in that regard? Well, with the next manager we hire, its presumably going to place a premium on the style of footy he intends to play, and in fact subsequently then does play in reality. Again, I'm not sure if this is as big a consideration or burden for some other clubs when they make their searches and hires. Would we want Dyche here if he left Burnley?

(Edit: I saw in the Rumours forum you recommended Monk as the next manager here, and I responded to it).


Who’s your favourite Reading manager, whose team you’ve seen and why?

Denver Royal
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Re: The only course of action now...

by Denver Royal » 15 Feb 2018 04:16

leon wrote:Who’s your favourite Reading manager, whose team you’ve seen and why?


My favourite? In my lifetime? I'd say its prolly Hurley. Because of where we were at that time, promo from 4th div, etc.

That's not to say he was the best. Different era and all that. Coppell was excellent. And BMc was very good too.

And you?

(Hopefully this isn't another poll :shock: )

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Re: The only course of action now...

by russyb » 15 Feb 2018 10:56

can someone answer me this: Please excuse my ignorance on this topic but FFP

So obviously this season we have struggled to perhaps get players in because of FFP. My question is this, next season does this kind of reset? do we have a larger purse so to speak to go out and blow loads of money on signings? or are we going to be in the same position in the summer? how for example do other teams like Wolves etc. are able to seemingly spend loads on players and others can't.

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Re: The only course of action now...

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 15 Feb 2018 11:27

russyb wrote:can someone answer me this: Please excuse my ignorance on this topic but FFP

So obviously this season we have struggled to perhaps get players in because of FFP. My question is this, next season does this kind of reset? do we have a larger purse so to speak to go out and blow loads of money on signings? or are we going to be in the same position in the summer? how for example do other teams like Wolves etc. are able to seemingly spend loads on players and others can't.


This is my understanding of the rules but if anyone has the actual info then please feel free to correct me.
Basically every three years you have to have accrued no more than £30m worth of losses. Wolves have gambled and spent big this season along with their combined losses from the previous two seasons it'll be well over that threshold. The gamble looks to be paying off though as getting to the PL will effectively write off your losses immediately.

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Re: The only course of action now...

by russyb » 15 Feb 2018 11:32

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
russyb wrote:can someone answer me this: Please excuse my ignorance on this topic but FFP

So obviously this season we have struggled to perhaps get players in because of FFP. My question is this, next season does this kind of reset? do we have a larger purse so to speak to go out and blow loads of money on signings? or are we going to be in the same position in the summer? how for example do other teams like Wolves etc. are able to seemingly spend loads on players and others can't.


This is my understanding of the rules but if anyone has the actual info then please feel free to correct me.
Basically every three years you have to have accrued no more than £30m worth of losses. Wolves have gambled and spent big this season along with their combined losses from the previous two seasons it'll be well over that threshold. The gamble looks to be paying off though as getting to the PL will effectively write off your losses immediately.



Thank you for the explanation... I wonder how perilous our finances are in this regard and whether that will improve for the new season. cheers


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Re: The only course of action now...

by muirinho » 15 Feb 2018 12:02

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
russyb wrote:can someone answer me this: Please excuse my ignorance on this topic but FFP

So obviously this season we have struggled to perhaps get players in because of FFP. My question is this, next season does this kind of reset? do we have a larger purse so to speak to go out and blow loads of money on signings? or are we going to be in the same position in the summer? how for example do other teams like Wolves etc. are able to seemingly spend loads on players and others can't.


This is my understanding of the rules but if anyone has the actual info then please feel free to correct me.
Basically every three years you have to have accrued no more than £30m worth of losses. Wolves have gambled and spent big this season along with their combined losses from the previous two seasons it'll be well over that threshold. The gamble looks to be paying off though as getting to the PL will effectively write off your losses immediately.


That's not strictly true. You've got two things. Will the club get promoted before they run out of money? This is a gamble I suggest they are taking.
And - will the club get promoted but breach FFP in the process?

If wolves breach over three years, it doesn't matter whether they get promoted or not, They've breached. That's not a gamble they can take.

However, I'd take issue with the assumption that their spending means they are in breach. I looked at this before. Their turnover is higher than Reading's, their wage bill is lower. So despite appearing to be at risk of FFP breach, they are less likely to do it than Reading.

It's not transfers that kill us, it's wages

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Re: The only course of action now...

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 15 Feb 2018 12:14

muirinho wrote:
Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
russyb wrote:can someone answer me this: Please excuse my ignorance on this topic but FFP

So obviously this season we have struggled to perhaps get players in because of FFP. My question is this, next season does this kind of reset? do we have a larger purse so to speak to go out and blow loads of money on signings? or are we going to be in the same position in the summer? how for example do other teams like Wolves etc. are able to seemingly spend loads on players and others can't.


This is my understanding of the rules but if anyone has the actual info then please feel free to correct me.
Basically every three years you have to have accrued no more than £30m worth of losses. Wolves have gambled and spent big this season along with their combined losses from the previous two seasons it'll be well over that threshold. The gamble looks to be paying off though as getting to the PL will effectively write off your losses immediately.


That's not strictly true. You've got two things. Will the club get promoted before they run out of money? This is a gamble I suggest they are taking.
And - will the club get promoted but breach FFP in the process?

If wolves breach over three years, it doesn't matter whether they get promoted or not, They've breached. That's not a gamble they can take.

However, I'd take issue with the assumption that their spending means they are in breach. I looked at this before. Their turnover is higher than Reading's, their wage bill is lower. So despite appearing to be at risk of FFP breach, they are less likely to do it than Reading.

It's not transfers that kill us, it's wages


Like I inferred, I am open to correction if I'm not factually correct in my interpretation.

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Re: The only course of action now...

by muirinho » 15 Feb 2018 12:15

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
muirinho wrote:
Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
This is my understanding of the rules but if anyone has the actual info then please feel free to correct me.
Basically every three years you have to have accrued no more than £30m worth of losses. Wolves have gambled and spent big this season along with their combined losses from the previous two seasons it'll be well over that threshold. The gamble looks to be paying off though as getting to the PL will effectively write off your losses immediately.


That's not strictly true. You've got two things. Will the club get promoted before they run out of money? This is a gamble I suggest they are taking.
And - will the club get promoted but breach FFP in the process?

If wolves breach over three years, it doesn't matter whether they get promoted or not, They've breached. That's not a gamble they can take.

However, I'd take issue with the assumption that their spending means they are in breach. I looked at this before. Their turnover is higher than Reading's, their wage bill is lower. So despite appearing to be at risk of FFP breach, they are less likely to do it than Reading.

It's not transfers that kill us, it's wages


Like I inferred, I am open to correction if I'm not factually correct in my interpretation.


Yeah, I wasn't having a go, I was trying to add to the sum of knowledge

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Re: The only course of action now...

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 15 Feb 2018 12:17

muirinho wrote:
Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
muirinho wrote:
That's not strictly true. You've got two things. Will the club get promoted before they run out of money? This is a gamble I suggest they are taking.
And - will the club get promoted but breach FFP in the process?

If wolves breach over three years, it doesn't matter whether they get promoted or not, They've breached. That's not a gamble they can take.

However, I'd take issue with the assumption that their spending means they are in breach. I looked at this before. Their turnover is higher than Reading's, their wage bill is lower. So despite appearing to be at risk of FFP breach, they are less likely to do it than Reading.

It's not transfers that kill us, it's wages


Like I inferred, I am open to correction if I'm not factually correct in my interpretation.


Yeah, I wasn't having a go, I was trying to add to the sum of knowledge


No worries mate. I was just explaining too. 8)


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Re: The only course of action now...

by Vision » 15 Feb 2018 12:33

muirinho wrote:
Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
muirinho wrote:
That's not strictly true. You've got two things. Will the club get promoted before they run out of money? This is a gamble I suggest they are taking.
And - will the club get promoted but breach FFP in the process?

If wolves breach over three years, it doesn't matter whether they get promoted or not, They've breached. That's not a gamble they can take.

However, I'd take issue with the assumption that their spending means they are in breach. I looked at this before. Their turnover is higher than Reading's, their wage bill is lower. So despite appearing to be at risk of FFP breach, they are less likely to do it than Reading.

It's not transfers that kill us, it's wages


Like I inferred, I am open to correction if I'm not factually correct in my interpretation.


Yeah, I wasn't having a go, I was trying to add to the sum of knowledge


Bournemouth were in breach when they got promoted. They negotiated a fine with the Football League and paid it. The problem comes when you don't stay up like QPR. They're still as far as I know appealing against their sentence from 4-5? years ago.

With regard to transfers. I wonder if the seemingly longer contract terms that seem to apply in the last year or so for new signings is a way around this. I think the way it works is that the fee is split over the length of the contract for FFP purposes. IE a £10m signing on a 5 year deal costs £2m a year in FFP terms but if he was on a 2 year deal it would be £5m.

That may be bollocks ;-)

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Re: The only course of action now...

by muirinho » 15 Feb 2018 12:47

Vision wrote:
muirinho wrote:
Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
Like I inferred, I am open to correction if I'm not factually correct in my interpretation.


Yeah, I wasn't having a go, I was trying to add to the sum of knowledge


Bournemouth were in breach when they got promoted. They negotiated a fine with the Football League and paid it. The problem comes when you don't stay up like QPR. They're still as far as I know appealing against their sentence from 4-5? years ago.

With regard to transfers. I wonder if the seemingly longer contract terms that seem to apply in the last year or so for new signings is a way around this. I think the way it works is that the fee is split over the length of the contract for FFP purposes. IE a £10m signing on a 5 year deal costs £2m a year in FFP terms but if he was on a 2 year deal it would be £5m.

That may be bollocks ;-)


Previously the only recourse if a team was promoted, was fines. that is no longer the case. Now the current season is included in the FFP calculations, based on projections which have to be published as at the 1st March, and punishment will be set before the end of the season. This includes points deductions, demoting from automatic promotion slot to playoff slot, or out altogether, etc

Which means, in theory, the Championship could stop a team from being promoted. Would Wolves risk that? I very much doubt it!

Yes you're correct about the effect of longer contracts, to spread cost

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Re: The only course of action now...

by Hoop Blah » 15 Feb 2018 12:48

muirinho wrote:However, I'd take issue with the assumption that their spending means they are in breach. I looked at this before. Their turnover is higher than Reading's, their wage bill is lower. So despite appearing to be at risk of FFP breach, they are less likely to do it than Reading.

It's not transfers that kill us, it's wages


Their wage bill was lower, I'd hazard a guess that it's higher this year. I totally agree it's the wage structure that's been put in place at Reading that's hitting us hard in terms of FFP though. That's going to take a long time to address, if we are indeed trying to address it.

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Re: The only course of action now...

by muirinho » 15 Feb 2018 12:52

Hoop Blah wrote:
muirinho wrote:However, I'd take issue with the assumption that their spending means they are in breach. I looked at this before. Their turnover is higher than Reading's, their wage bill is lower. So despite appearing to be at risk of FFP breach, they are less likely to do it than Reading.

It's not transfers that kill us, it's wages


Their wage bill was lower, I'd hazard a guess that it's higher this year. I totally agree it's the wage structure that's been put in place at Reading that's hitting us hard in terms of FFP though. That's going to take a long time to address, if we are indeed trying to address it.


this is almost certainly what Stam meant when he blamed previous owners/managers for FFP woes. As is usual with Stam of course, he only removes a foot from his mouth, so as to shove in his other one, so I doubt he'd get much sympathy.


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Re: The only course of action now...

by leon » 15 Feb 2018 12:58

Denver Royal wrote:
leon wrote:Who’s your favourite Reading manager, whose team you’ve seen and why?


My favourite? In my lifetime? I'd say its prolly Hurley. Because of where we were at that time, promo from 4th div, etc.

That's not to say he was the best. Different era and all that. Coppell was excellent. And BMc was very good too.

And you?

(Hopefully this isn't another poll :shock: )


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Re: The only course of action now...

by Vision » 15 Feb 2018 13:06

muirinho wrote:
Vision wrote:
muirinho wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't having a go, I was trying to add to the sum of knowledge


Bournemouth were in breach when they got promoted. They negotiated a fine with the Football League and paid it. The problem comes when you don't stay up like QPR. They're still as far as I know appealing against their sentence from 4-5? years ago.

With regard to transfers. I wonder if the seemingly longer contract terms that seem to apply in the last year or so for new signings is a way around this. I think the way it works is that the fee is split over the length of the contract for FFP purposes. IE a £10m signing on a 5 year deal costs £2m a year in FFP terms but if he was on a 2 year deal it would be £5m.

That may be bollocks ;-)


Previously the only recourse if a team was promoted, was fines. that is no longer the case. Now the current season is included in the FFP calculations, based on projections which have to be published as at the 1st March, and punishment will be set before the end of the season. This includes points deductions, demoting from automatic promotion slot to playoff slot, or out altogether, etc

Which means, in theory, the Championship could stop a team from being promoted. Would Wolves risk that? I very much doubt it!

Yes you're correct about the effect of longer contracts, to spread cost


That's interesting. Thanks. That's assuming all clubs are as aware of these new rules as you are. I'm not convinced they all are.

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Re: The only course of action now...

by BR0B0T » 15 Feb 2018 13:49

leon wrote:
Denver Royal wrote:
leon wrote:Who’s your favourite Reading manager, whose team you’ve seen and why?


My favourite? In my lifetime? I'd say its prolly Hurley. Because of where we were at that time, promo from 4th div, etc.

That's not to say he was the best. Different era and all that. Coppell was excellent. And BMc was very good too.

And you?

(Hopefully this isn't another poll :shock: )


Ian Royal


Tactical genius!

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Re: The only course of action now...

by muirinho » 15 Feb 2018 14:23

Vision wrote:
muirinho wrote:
Vision wrote:
Bournemouth were in breach when they got promoted. They negotiated a fine with the Football League and paid it. The problem comes when you don't stay up like QPR. They're still as far as I know appealing against their sentence from 4-5? years ago.

With regard to transfers. I wonder if the seemingly longer contract terms that seem to apply in the last year or so for new signings is a way around this. I think the way it works is that the fee is split over the length of the contract for FFP purposes. IE a £10m signing on a 5 year deal costs £2m a year in FFP terms but if he was on a 2 year deal it would be £5m.

That may be bollocks ;-)


Previously the only recourse if a team was promoted, was fines. that is no longer the case. Now the current season is included in the FFP calculations, based on projections which have to be published as at the 1st March, and punishment will be set before the end of the season. This includes points deductions, demoting from automatic promotion slot to playoff slot, or out altogether, etc

Which means, in theory, the Championship could stop a team from being promoted. Would Wolves risk that? I very much doubt it!

Yes you're correct about the effect of longer contracts, to spread cost


That's interesting. Thanks. That's assuming all clubs are as aware of these new rules as you are. I'm not convinced they all are.


Certainly supporters aren't! But in all fairness, those are just rules on paper. It has to actually happen to a club before the majority will believe it could happen.

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Re: The only course of action now...

by Snowflake Royal » 15 Feb 2018 20:58

It's worth noting the last reported financial position for the Championship showed Wolves turning a profit with wages well below turnover, whilst we made a big loss (ofset somehow) with wages at well over 100% of turnover. (Iirc etc)

So Wolves can make big money signings because their wage bill started out much lower and healthier than ours was.

Transfer fees mean fuk all to FFP, wages are the killer. If your wages are consistently over turnover, as ours appear to have become since SJM relinquished control, youhave much less leeway.

So congratulations to everyone who bemoaned SJM's blackhole filling, lack of ambition and lack of spending. You got spending beyond our means, and this is the result.

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Re: The only course of action now...

by Hound » 15 Feb 2018 21:14

It’s true Ian but I wonder how much the club are bothered. It still seems to be thought as the way to go - ie pay high wages.

There has been absolutely no effort to cut the wage bill on the face of it - in fact I suspect it’s gone up significantly this year

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Re: The only course of action now...

by muirinho » 15 Feb 2018 21:27

Hound wrote:It’s true Ian but I wonder how much the club are bothered. It still seems to be thought as the way to go - ie pay high wages.

There has been absolutely no effort to cut the wage bill on the face of it - in fact I suspect it’s gone up significantly this year


It's the bloated squad that bugs me. I don't mind paying good wages to first team players. I do object to paying good wages to players who never get next nor nigh the first team.

If they would be playing, bar injury, then fair enough.

And I don't mind a few punts, that might come off, in terms of players with potential.

But not dozens* of them.

*might be exaggerating a tad here

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