BFTG - Blackburn

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Hound
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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Hound » 14 Feb 2019 14:10

worth remembering there wasn't a huge set of clubs lining up to sign Oliveira from the sound of it, and he'd have lost even more value stuck in Norwich reserves. There were rumours of them accepting a 2m bid for him from, which whilst prob not true, shows roughly where he was valued

Probably allowed us to set up fairly favourable terms on the loan agreement to save them on his wage. They aren't a huge or wealthy club

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by NewCorkSeth » 14 Feb 2019 14:12

2 world wars, 1 world cup wrote:
Nameless wrote:
NewCorkSeth wrote:What? We don't disagree. There's nothing to disagree about. I'm telling you what the "option" means on the loan agreement. Are you saying I'm wrong?


Well you think it’s a ‘smart’ system, so we probably disagree there !
I don’t know if you are right or wrong and unless we get sight of the contracts I guess we can’t be sure.
I think the system you have explained is somewhat pointless and you’ve not really highlighted any benefits for the potential buying club.
As I said while ago , not sure where else this debate goes. I’m sure we both hope the loan players are successful and any we think can do a long term job decide they want to stay, whether or not we have an ‘option’ on them.


How can there be no benefits for the buying club? I'm confused. To exaggerate the point to demonstrate: isn't it obvious that if Oliveira scores 50 goals his price would rocket and even if we wanted him at the end of the season we wouldn't afford his £30million price tag. But as a price for, let's say £5mill, has already been agreed we're laughing! How can that not be a beneficial to us!? Of course others may come in and offer the £30million and he may end up going elsewhere, but there's a chance he may prefer our contract so we may then get him. If he ends up being shit anyway like Vydra we won't want him anyway so it doesn't matter. Like everything in business it's a punt. A bit like a fixed rate vs a variable mortgage. It's such an obvious potential benefit to a buying club I wonder if I'm missing something....

Thank you. I felt like I was going insane there for a minute.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Feb 2019 14:14

Hound wrote:worth remembering there wasn't a huge set of clubs lining up to sign Oliveira from the sound of it, and he'd have lost even more value stuck in Norwich reserves. There were rumours of them accepting a 2m bid for him from, which whilst prob not true, shows roughly where he was valued

Probably allowed us to set up fairly favourable terms on the loan agreement to save them on his wage. They aren't a huge or wealthy club

Yeah good point. I think the danger is if he ends up getting a load of goals for us he will attract attention from far more powerful clubs than us. We just have to hope nobody is watching him.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by NewCorkSeth » 14 Feb 2019 14:15

Old Man Andrews wrote:
Hound wrote:worth remembering there wasn't a huge set of clubs lining up to sign Oliveira from the sound of it, and he'd have lost even more value stuck in Norwich reserves. There were rumours of them accepting a 2m bid for him from, which whilst prob not true, shows roughly where he was valued

Probably allowed us to set up fairly favourable terms on the loan agreement to save them on his wage. They aren't a huge or wealthy club

Yeah good point. I think the danger is if he ends up getting a load of goals for us he will attract attention from far more powerful clubs than us. We just have to hope nobody is watching him.

He's wearing a mask already. Not sure we can do much else to hide him.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Platypuss » 14 Feb 2019 14:17

John Madejski's Wallet wrote:
2 world wars, 1 world cup wrote:And last but not least for me: Martinez. Possibly the best keeper I've seen play for Reading. For me even better than USA.

JOSE GOMES' BARMY ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Martinez looks class at shotstopping and claiming crosses, but fukk me I don't buy into this 'can play football' stuff. He's just as appalling at playing our defenders into trouble as every one of our recent keepers who have tried in this passing style. And then when he does hoof it, they are rubbish scuffs.

But he makes me feel really relaxed when he's there. Really happy to have him.


A couple of decent throwouts too to set up breaks - we've really missed a keeper with vision and a range of distribution options.


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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Victor Meldrew » 14 Feb 2019 14:17

Well, what a relief.
I was glad to hear Gomes afterwards explaining his selections and the half-time changes.
The original midfield selection looked so lightweight , and proved to be so, but I was unaware of Rino's injury which meant that he had limited choices.
What a likeable bloke he is BUT this is still Stam/Clementball

As I see it , the one difference is in personnel-we now have a good spine with the 3 loan signings so credit to whoever thought about the players that we now have.
Whether or not we will get to sign them, that is for another season so let's just be glad (and relieved) that we have got them for the rest of the season.

Everything has been said about the performance and I think with just that one display, bearing in mind the mask ,Oliveira has almost achieved cult status already-I said afterwards, as one of the previous posters said, at last we have a proper centre-forward.
I believe there were issues at Norwich about him being a bit of a luxury and erratic player but it could just be right time , right place with us and his effort last night was outstanding and Meite, that's how you finish by guiding the ball into the corner and not just hit and hope.


Top Flight mentioned our keeper and centre-back rejoicing together at the end-that was really encouraging as they are only loan players but clearly very committed.

So, on to Sheffield with hopefully Aluko left in Reading and potentially one of the hardest games of the season.
A point would be great but the next few games after that are key to our season so am hoping that Rino and our spineful (not a word perhaps but what is the opposite of spineless?) trio stay injury-free.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by windermereROYAL » 14 Feb 2019 14:20

Platypuss wrote:
John Madejski's Wallet wrote:
2 world wars, 1 world cup wrote:And last but not least for me: Martinez. Possibly the best keeper I've seen play for Reading. For me even better than USA.

JOSE GOMES' BARMY ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Martinez looks class at shotstopping and claiming crosses, but fukk me I don't buy into this 'can play football' stuff. He's just as appalling at playing our defenders into trouble as every one of our recent keepers who have tried in this passing style. And then when he does hoof it, they are rubbish scuffs.

But he makes me feel really relaxed when he's there. Really happy to have him.


A couple of decent throwouts too to set up breaks - we've really missed a keeper with vision and a range of distribution options.


Scared to shit out me in one incident in the 2nd half when he played 2 short passes to players with Blackburn all over them, we got away with it but it had a quite a few hearts fluttering.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Feb 2019 14:20

Platypuss wrote:
John Madejski's Wallet wrote:
2 world wars, 1 world cup wrote:And last but not least for me: Martinez. Possibly the best keeper I've seen play for Reading. For me even better than USA.

JOSE GOMES' BARMY ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Martinez looks class at shotstopping and claiming crosses, but fukk me I don't buy into this 'can play football' stuff. He's just as appalling at playing our defenders into trouble as every one of our recent keepers who have tried in this passing style. And then when he does hoof it, they are rubbish scuffs.

But he makes me feel really relaxed when he's there. Really happy to have him.


A couple of decent throwouts too to set up breaks - we've really missed a keeper with vision and a range of distribution options.


Intelligence too. He is making all of the right decisions at the right times. Although it was fairly routine he came out to catch 4 or 5 crosses in the 2nd half that I am convinced Jaakkola wouldn't have come for. Martinez relieves the pressure on us and calms things down. I am in love with him.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by NewCorkSeth » 14 Feb 2019 14:28

Did anyone else see the interview Szczesny and Fabianski gave last year talking about how shit the goalkeeper training was at Arsenal? They crucified Peyton. That's the only worry in the back of my mind about Martinez. Of course both of them improved massively after leaving Arsenal so it could be no problem for us.


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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by From Despair To Where? » 14 Feb 2019 14:39

Isn't Sal Bibbo Arsenal's goalkeeping coach? I read on here that he was the Messiah.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by NewCorkSeth » 14 Feb 2019 14:41

From Despair To Where? wrote:Isn't Sal Bibbo Arsenal's goalkeeping coach?

Yes but they were talking about former head goalkeeping coach Gerry Peyton who all of them would have spent more time under. Martinez would have spent all but last season under the instructions of a man the Polish keeping duo describes in various negative lights.
Last edited by NewCorkSeth on 14 Feb 2019 14:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Feb 2019 14:41

From Despair To Where? wrote:Isn't Sal Bibbo Arsenal's goalkeeping coach? I read on here that he was the Messiah.


They have two. Spanish bloke and Bibbo.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Ascotexgunner » 14 Feb 2019 14:47

Dare I ask but what has that done to the Gomes v Clement % win comparison?


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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by windermereROYAL » 14 Feb 2019 14:56

Ascotexgunner wrote:Dare I ask but what has that done to the Gomes v Clement % win comparison?


Clement 6 in 28. Gomes 2 in 9, so Jose is slightly ahead.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Stranded » 14 Feb 2019 14:59

windermereROYAL wrote:
Platypuss wrote:
John Madejski's Wallet wrote:Martinez looks class at shotstopping and claiming crosses, but fukk me I don't buy into this 'can play football' stuff. He's just as appalling at playing our defenders into trouble as every one of our recent keepers who have tried in this passing style. And then when he does hoof it, they are rubbish scuffs.

But he makes me feel really relaxed when he's there. Really happy to have him.


A couple of decent throwouts too to set up breaks - we've really missed a keeper with vision and a range of distribution options.


Scared to shit out me in one incident in the 2nd half when he played 2 short passes to players with Blackburn all over them, we got away with it but it had a quite a few hearts fluttering.


That's kind of the point in the way Gomes wants us to play. Take educated risks, trust players and draw the opposition in to create space, we aren't there with it yet but when we are it will be very hard to defend. We got it right at the start of the 2nd half last night and bar a defender flinging himself at the ball in desperation we would have been on for goal of the season.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Hound » 14 Feb 2019 15:05

Stranded wrote:
windermereROYAL wrote:
Platypuss wrote:
A couple of decent throwouts too to set up breaks - we've really missed a keeper with vision and a range of distribution options.


Scared to shit out me in one incident in the 2nd half when he played 2 short passes to players with Blackburn all over them, we got away with it but it had a quite a few hearts fluttering.


That's kind of the point in the way Gomes wants us to play. Take educated risks, trust players and draw the opposition in to create space, we aren't there with it yet but when we are it will be very hard to defend. We got it right at the start of the 2nd half last night and bar a defender flinging himself at the ball in desperation we would have been on for goal of the season.


Yep made the same point earlier in the thread

The philosophy is to bring the oppo midfielders into the press and then break past them. How quickly we went from our own area into a brilliant attacking position shows how it can work on that occasion. And the more you do it, the more the opposition don't know whether to press or hang back, creating even more gaps to exploit. I think it always looks more risky than it is at times - is probably no worse than hoofing a ball to the oppo CB's forehead to power back into your own half

It's not a case of 'getting away with it', you accept the risk to create yourself an opportunity. It was shit under Stam because rather than look to exploit the space, we kept possession for the sake of it.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Nameless » 14 Feb 2019 15:13

NewCorkSeth wrote:
2 world wars, 1 world cup wrote:
Nameless wrote:
Well you think it’s a ‘smart’ system, so we probably disagree there !
I don’t know if you are right or wrong and unless we get sight of the contracts I guess we can’t be sure.
I think the system you have explained is somewhat pointless and you’ve not really highlighted any benefits for the potential buying club.
As I said while ago , not sure where else this debate goes. I’m sure we both hope the loan players are successful and any we think can do a long term job decide they want to stay, whether or not we have an ‘option’ on them.


How can there be no benefits for the buying club? I'm confused. To exaggerate the point to demonstrate: isn't it obvious that if Oliveira scores 50 goals his price would rocket and even if we wanted him at the end of the season we wouldn't afford his £30million price tag. But as a price for, let's say £5mill, has already been agreed we're laughing! How can that not be a beneficial to us!? Of course others may come in and offer the £30million and he may end up going elsewhere, but there's a chance he may prefer our contract so we may then get him. If he ends up being shit anyway like Vydra we won't want him anyway so it doesn't matter. Like everything in business it's a punt. A bit like a fixed rate vs a variable mortgage. It's such an obvious potential benefit to a buying club I wonder if I'm missing something....

Thank you. I felt like I was going insane there for a minute.


No, I’ll admit to playing a bit of the devil’s advocate ...
I’m still not wholly convinced and agree 100% it’s a punt which will probably pay somerimes and not others
Still think it all hangs on the player and gives them massive control.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Snowflake Royal » 14 Feb 2019 15:19

Nameless wrote:
NewCorkSeth wrote:
Nameless wrote:Whenever hear of clubs having ‘options’ on players I wonder what that means.
Is it contractual ? Ie you can have this player for £x and his wages will be £y. Does it compel the player to move ?
Or if the selling club gets a better offer can they accept it ? Or if the player doesn’t fancy the move or the terms can they decline the move ?
My gut feel is it’s a bit of a meaningless phrase, anyone know if it is a more solid arrangement ?

It's usually a set price that they have to accept as a bid if it's made. Yes they can accept other offers and no the player doesn't have to go.


So we agree a price of £5 million for Oliviera, he scores 10 goals to keep,us up, we ring them up to get their bank details to make payment and not only find that Stoke have had a bid of £5 million and 50p accepted but Oliviera has decided he’d rather go and play in Spain so woukdn’t Have joined anyway.
Presumably we could up our offer and tell Oliviera we REALLY like him but the ‘option’ seems very weak.

You need to understand the distinction between an agreement with a club and a player.

Norwich can't refuse our offer if we meet the requirements of it. We'll not have entered into the deal without exploring whether the player is interested. But the deal is not with the player. Although there may well already be contract terms agreed should it go through.

The benefit is not that it guarantees us the signing but that it guarantees us a particular price should the signing go ahead and makes completing that signing easier.

It's going to be rare that such signings fail IF the player performs and is wanted. But obviously if you have a situation like with Murray where there is a change of manager and the player's prospect of staying and playing at his current club at a much higher wage you'd have to be a moron to not to bow out of the transfer.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Nameless » 14 Feb 2019 15:23

Snowflake Royal wrote:
Nameless wrote:
NewCorkSeth wrote:It's usually a set price that they have to accept as a bid if it's made. Yes they can accept other offers and no the player doesn't have to go.


So we agree a price of £5 million for Oliviera, he scores 10 goals to keep,us up, we ring them up to get their bank details to make payment and not only find that Stoke have had a bid of £5 million and 50p accepted but Oliviera has decided he’d rather go and play in Spain so woukdn’t Have joined anyway.
Presumably we could up our offer and tell Oliviera we REALLY like him but the ‘option’ seems very weak.



You need to understand the distinction between an agreement with a club and a player.



I think I can grasp the difference thankyou
They can be quite intertwined though.

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Re: BFTG - Blackburn

by Blackbag » 14 Feb 2019 15:27

Does anyone know what happened to the person that collapsed towards the end of the game all the stewards were running up there?

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