Savage in the hole (NSFW)

[Extended-Phenotype]

Ooer and all that. But I wondered if any brighter spark could elucidate why Savage might be preferred in the AM position over Wing?

It’s happened a couple of times now, so it’s obviously something the gaffer wants to try out - we’ve either started with Savage, Wing and Doyle for Fraser to come on for Doyle into a deeper position alongside Wing, pushing Savage forward, or we’ve started with Fraser, Wing and Doyle, and replaced Doyle like-for-like with Savage.

I feel like Savage, Wing and Fraser would be my ideal starting three, but the armchair manager in me would have totally given Wing the advanced role, even if just to see if it could work. I’ve said before he seems to the untrained eye kinda perfect for it - good passer of the ball, creates chances, and is deadly shooting from just outside the box.

I can see the argument for Doyle being first choice for the hole on paper (though his performances are starting to meet these expectations), but Savage wouldn’t be my second (or even third) choice in that position.

I wonder what the story is there. I actually texted into BBC Berks about it but the daft Rita cut my text off just as I asked the question for some reason!

[Royalwaster]

I think the role requires speed and mobility which CS has in abundance - he's been great recently in closing down defenders when he was moved into this position and this is something I don't think Wing would bring to the role.

[Esteban]

I'd say Savage is better at those cute little through balls and 1-2's around the top of the box than Wing is (his ball to Wing for his goal against Bristol Rovers away last season, for example). Wing is probably better at the longer balls over the top (see Marriott's goal vs Plymouth) and we all know about his shooting from outside the box.

But it's probably a much of a much, I'd wager. Fun to watch though!

[Sutekh]

[Hound]

I really like Savage in that CAM role. Presses very well, energetic, physical. He also hits a mean shot and pretty decent assist stats as well

Wing is a very good DM I think. Think i saw somewhere he tops all our stats for tackles, interceptions etc. And despite being that bit deeper his goals and assists are still very strong. Maybe it’s because he has a bit more time and space there

Don’t think he has the mobility or energy to play that CAM role how i like to see it played

[traff]

This might go against the grain, but I’m not convinced Savage is especially progressive in a forward role. He’s got a cracking left foot and his right is serviceable, but his default too often feels sideways or backwards. While he’s capable of a good pass, he can also be wasteful in possession.

To me, LR using him further forward late in games feels more about his work rate and energy, protecting the midfield and helping us see games out, rather than expecting him to drive play.

[Crowbar6753]

Doyle is on a season long loan and Savage is ours for now so maybe looking to the future especially as Fraser is also ours and possibly a better fit alongside Wing in that double pivot as they call it.
Fraser will offer much better protection to the back four being a natural CDM and even though i would prefer Wing in the CAM position he has played two great games alongside Fraser recently.
Finding a decent CAM on our budget will be a tough ask so maybe seeing if Savage can grow into this role isn't a bad thing. I think Doyle is getting better with each game however with that his stock goes up and the chances of us getting him again from Brighton next season is low as i believe they'll probably want him to getting experience in the Chumpionship!

[Royal Ginger]

I really like Savage in that CAM role. Presses very well, energetic, physical. He also hits a mean shot and pretty decent assist stats as well

Wing is a very good DM I think. Think i saw somewhere he tops all our stats for tackles, interceptions etc. And despite being that bit deeper his goals and assists are still very strong. Maybe it’s because he has a bit more time and space there

Don’t think he has the mobility or energy to play that CAM role how i like to see it played

I tend to agree with this. He’s a very good defender and moving him up the field won’t make best use of that rocket launcher of a foot he has. The point has also been made that he’s sat upon by oppositions (as Stockport did for 89 minutes) and is probably better used winning and distributing the ball rather than being marked out of the game.

[Extended-Phenotype]

This might go against the grain, but I’m not convinced Savage is especially progressive in a forward role. He’s got a cracking left foot and his right is serviceable, but his default too often feels sideways or backwards. While he’s capable of a good pass, he can also be wasteful in possession.

To me, LR using him further forward late in games feels more about his work rate and energy, protecting the midfield and helping us see games out, rather than expecting him to drive play.

This was my take too, though not saying it’s right. My first thoughts of Savage in an AM role was that, Savage seems to opt for the safer sideways/backwards pass, to keep possession rather than risk it creatively.

In a recent game, possibly Peterborough, I was calling out for someone better in possession further up the pitch to relieve the pressure in our own third and kind of shift our centre of gravity a bit further forward - which would kinda fit with the theory of Savage being used as a tool for this.

I see it, but I still think Savage is best being a terrier from deeper. Interesting that Wing’s stats indicate quality at DM even putting aside his long passing range and ability to still score pretty frequently despite playing deep.

One thing to think about is that a Savage-like player further forward does create space for Wing to get further forward too. I think my frustration with Wing playing too deep this season could be less about his game or the managers tactics, and more about the AM not performing well and having a knock on effect on Wing.

Difficult for me to tell tbh.

[Snowflake Royal]

For the record, whoscored.com...
At least 10 appearances, stats per 90 minutes.

Tackles
Abrefa - 3.2
Savage - 2.2
Wing - 2.1
Yiadom - 2.1
Burns - 2
Dorsett - 1.8
Doyle - 1.8 ( )

Interceptions
Burns - 2
O'Connor - 1.5
Camara - 1.4 ( )
Yiadom - 1.4
Abrefa - 1.2
Wing 1.2
Jacob - 1.1

Shots blocked
D Williams - 1
Dorsett - 0.7
Wing - 0.7
Burns - 0.7
Yiadom - 0.6
O'Connor - 0.6
O'Mahoney - 0.6 ( )

Passes blocked
Doyle - 1.1
Kyerewaa - 1.1
Dorsett - 0.9
Savage - 0.9
Wing - 0.9
Abrefa - 0.9
Lane - 0.8

Total
Abrefa - 5.3
Wing - 4.9
Burns - 4.7
Yiadom - 4.1
Dorsett - 3.4
Savage - 3.1
Doyle - 2.9

[South Coast Royal]

I do feel as though we ( fans, pundits, managers etc al) get far too hung up on whether a player is a 6 or an 8 or a 10.
Why can’t each midfielder be all 3?

I know that our best ever team played with 2 wingers, 2 strikers and a back 4 but within that system Harper and Sidwell did a bit of everything and when one went forward the other covered and vice versa-that happened in a side where the 2 wingers did little ( or Little) in terms of defending.
We now tend to play with a 3 with only one striker and when Randell and Danny K are the wide players they both do a bit of defending meaning that we have a 5-man midfield.

Depending upon if we have Doyle or Fraser as the 3rd midfielder dictates whether our game plan is more attacking or defensive ,

However many midfielders we have I do believe that all should be capable in the 3 aspects of midfield play, I.e.passing, shooting or defending.
Fraser for example is now being labelled as a defensive midfielder but he has shown that he can shoot-at the same time we know that Savage can tackle, pass and shoot , likewise Wing so although a player might be marginally better at one or more aspects of the game I feel that each one should be well capable of doing all 3.

I can see a manager like Cloughie saying to his midfielders “ you are a midfielder, sort it out with your fellow midfielders what each should be doing-you don’t need me to tell you that if one goes forward one of the others covers”.
Coppell might have said something similar as he felt that players should be working out solutions by themselves rather than needing somebody on the touch line shouting at them with instructions.

So my take is that Savage should be a midfielder and not additionally labelled and the same goes for the others-Rice at Arsenal is a good example of what a midfielder should be in that he passes ( including free kicks and corners, ),he tackles and he shoots and is not just a prescribed number.

Anyway, please carry on if you feel that such numbers are important-I happen to think they aren’t.

[MR. CYNICAL]

Doyle is on a season long loan and Savage is ours for now so maybe looking to the future especially as Fraser is also ours and possibly a better fit alongside Wing in that double pivot as they call it.
Fraser will offer much better protection to the back four being a natural CDM and even though i would prefer Wing in the CAM position he has played two great games alongside Fraser recently.
Finding a decent CAM on our budget will be a tough ask so maybe seeing if Savage can grow into this role isn't a bad thing. I think Doyle is getting better with each game however with that his stock goes up and the chances of us getting him again from Brighton next season is low as i believe they'll probably want him to getting experience in the Chumpionship!

Doyle is miles away from being chumpionship standard.

[Snowflake Royal]

I do feel as though we ( fans, pundits, managers etc al) get far too hung up on whether a player is a 6 or an 8 or a 10.
Why can’t each midfielder be all 3?

I know that our best ever team played with 2 wingers, 2 strikers and a back 4 but within that system Harper and Sidwell did a bit of everything and when one went forward the other covered and vice versa-that happened in a side where the 2 wingers did little ( or Little) in terms of defending.
We now tend to play with a 3 with only one striker and when Randell and Danny K are the wide players they both do a bit of defending meaning that we have a 5-man midfield.

Depending upon if we have Doyle or Fraser as the 3rd midfielder dictates whether our game plan is more attacking or defensive ,

However many midfielders we have I do believe that all should be capable in the 3 aspects of midfield play, I.e.passing, shooting or defending.
Fraser for example is now being labelled as a defensive midfielder but he has shown that he can shoot-at the same time we know that Savage can tackle, pass and shoot , likewise Wing so although a player might be marginally better at one or more aspects of the game I feel that each one should be well capable of doing all 3.

I can see a manager like Cloughie saying to his midfielders “ you are a midfielder, sort it out with your fellow midfielders what each should be doing-you don’t need me to tell you that if one goes forward one of the others covers”.
Coppell might have said something similar as he felt that players should be working out solutions by themselves rather than needing somebody on the touch line shouting at them with instructions.

So my take is that Savage should be a midfielder and not additionally labelled and the same goes for the others-Rice at Arsenal is a good example of what a midfielder should be in that he passes ( including free kicks and corners, ),he tackles and he shoots and is not just a prescribed number.

Anyway, please carry on if you feel that such numbers are important-I happen to think they aren’t.

Because the three positions cover a large amount of ground, don't require the exact same skill sets, and positional discipline and organisation is important.

It's fine to rotate and be fluid in the game situation, but you're always going to have individuals whose primary responsibility and time is going to be spent one role.

The better form the team is in, and the higher the standard of the players, the more flexibility and fluidity you can have, especially if your players have high level awareness, talent and decision making.

The less in form, and the lower the quality of the players, the more you need a rigid structure, clearly defined rolls and straightforward tactics.

[Crowbar6753]

Doyle is on a season long loan and Savage is ours for now so maybe looking to the future especially as Fraser is also ours and possibly a better fit alongside Wing in that double pivot as they call it.
Fraser will offer much better protection to the back four being a natural CDM and even though i would prefer Wing in the CAM position he has played two great games alongside Fraser recently.
Finding a decent CAM on our budget will be a tough ask so maybe seeing if Savage can grow into this role isn't a bad thing. I think Doyle is getting better with each game however with that his stock goes up and the chances of us getting him again from Brighton next season is low as i believe they'll probably want him to getting experience in the Chumpionship!

Doyle is miles away from being chumpionship standard.

Howdy Mr.C yes, at the moment maybe, however, he's getting better week by week and i'm sure Brighton will want him playing at a higher standard. In the Championship you tend to get more time on the ball and this i feel would probably suit him as a player.
I remember before he came to us and his name was being touted around, everyone was saying what a great season he had for Crawley! and what a great signing he would be. There is a decent footballer in there and at his age they tend to progress quickly, i wouldn't be surprised to see him playing Chump football fairly soon.

[LightwaterRoyal]

Doyle is on a season long loan and Savage is ours for now so maybe looking to the future especially as Fraser is also ours and possibly a better fit alongside Wing in that double pivot as they call it.
Fraser will offer much better protection to the back four being a natural CDM and even though i would prefer Wing in the CAM position he has played two great games alongside Fraser recently.
Finding a decent CAM on our budget will be a tough ask so maybe seeing if Savage can grow into this role isn't a bad thing. I think Doyle is getting better with each game however with that his stock goes up and the chances of us getting him again from Brighton next season is low as i believe they'll probably want him to getting experience in the Chumpionship!

Doyle is miles away from being chumpionship standard.

Howdy Mr.C yes, at the moment maybe, however, he's getting better week by week and i'm sure Brighton will want him playing at a higher standard. In the Championship you tend to get more time on the ball and this i feel would probably suit him as a player.
I remember before he came to us and his name was being touted around, everyone was saying what a great season he had for Crawley! and what a great signing he would be. There is a decent footballer in there and at his age they tend to progress quickly, i wouldn't be surprised to see him playing Chump football fairly soon.

I'm very much expecting Doyle to be released by Brighton in the Summer (along with Caylan Vickers who is also out of contract). He's nowhere near ready for them and probably behind Tom Watson, Andrew Moran, Brajan Gruda and Facundo Buonanotte.

[stealthpapes]

I do feel as though we ( fans, pundits, managers etc al) get far too hung up on whether a player is a 6 or an 8 or a 10.
Why can’t each midfielder be all 3?

I know that our best ever team played with 2 wingers, 2 strikers and a back 4 but within that system Harper and Sidwell did a bit of everything and when one went forward the other covered and vice versa-that happened in a side where the 2 wingers did little ( or Little) in terms of defending.
We now tend to play with a 3 with only one striker and when Randell and Danny K are the wide players they both do a bit of defending meaning that we have a 5-man midfield.

Depending upon if we have Doyle or Fraser as the 3rd midfielder dictates whether our game plan is more attacking or defensive ,

However many midfielders we have I do believe that all should be capable in the 3 aspects of midfield play, I.e.passing, shooting or defending.
Fraser for example is now being labelled as a defensive midfielder but he has shown that he can shoot-at the same time we know that Savage can tackle, pass and shoot , likewise Wing so although a player might be marginally better at one or more aspects of the game I feel that each one should be well capable of doing all 3.

I can see a manager like Cloughie saying to his midfielders “ you are a midfielder, sort it out with your fellow midfielders what each should be doing-you don’t need me to tell you that if one goes forward one of the others covers”.
Coppell might have said something similar as he felt that players should be working out solutions by themselves rather than needing somebody on the touch line shouting at them with instructions.

So my take is that Savage should be a midfielder and not additionally labelled and the same goes for the others-Rice at Arsenal is a good example of what a midfielder should be in that he passes ( including free kicks and corners, ),he tackles and he shoots and is not just a prescribed number.

Anyway, please carry on if you feel that such numbers are important-I happen to think they aren’t.

Because the three positions cover a large amount of ground, don't require the exact same skill sets, and positional discipline and organisation is important.

It's fine to rotate and be fluid in the game situation, but you're always going to have individuals whose primary responsibility and time is going to be spent one role.

The better form the team is in, and the higher the standard of the players, the more flexibility and fluidity you can have, especially if your players have high level awareness, talent and decision making.

The less in form, and the lower the quality of the players, the more you need a rigid structure, clearly defined rolls and straightforward tactics.

you're a better man than me.

I got about three words in and it all blurred into ...