Are The Youngsters Being Frozen Out?

[mambo3]

Lets focus on the here and now. Last season he hot injured again and the went on loan, so wasn't really available.

Do his performances this season warrant taking Kermie's place? Not by most accounts of those 'who've seen him play.

I would say having 2 successful loans in league 1 and then playing U23 must be hard to take.

Not if you've got the mentality to succeed. Of if you've spent half your career injured.

Ian - you must be a very successful man in your own right if you practise what you breach. I for one am not even close.

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

Yes, we should probably give the signings a chance to prove themselves and they can't be judged on whether they make the team within the first two months, but our youngsters are having their chances limited in both first team and even Under 23 matches because we have players like Gravenberch, Mendes, Jaakola, Meite (youngster but not 'our' youngster), Harriott, Wieser and Blackett taking up squad roles - despite not being seen as good enough at present to start matches.

Of those players you mention only Wieser has played in u23 games this season I believe. Our U23 side has been made up of players as young as 17 and almost all are genuine Academy players.

Gravenbech and Mendes have both played in the U23s this season. I don't think it's a huge deal if they play there to regain fitness, that's part of what a reserve side is for. I do have a problem when they're not good enough for the first team.

If our youngsters are good enough for our first team then they will get the opportunity. Tshibola was good enough and he got the chance. Cooper was good enough and he got the chance as well. If our youngsters are not good enough for our first team then they have to find their level in some one else's first team. Jake Taylor was given enough opportunity to develop but he is a league two standard player. That's just what he is. Brendan Rogers persisted with a lot of young players in his time with us and got us in to trouble. Why did he keep playing Scott Davies? He has developed in to a National League South player! If you play National League South players in a championship first team and reduce the level then there is only one direction the club is headed. Thankfully McDermott had better judgement and not only saved us but steered us to the Premier League just two years later.

This post is largely incorrect.

When Rodgers played Davies, he had just had a successful season on loan in League 2, scoring 13 goals. Later that season, he went to League One and scored 3 goals in 15 matches. Rodgers gave him four matches at the start of the season after a good pre-season including a MOTM performance against Chelsea, but he was out of the team once we signed Brian Howard. His career's gone to toilet, but it's ridiculous to suggest Rodgers "persisted" with a "National League South" (!) player.

It's also plainly obvious to anyone who has paid the remotest bit of attention to football in recent years that sometimes players who are good enough don't actually get opportunities for whatever reason. Paul Pogba at Man United and Kevin De Bruyne at Chelsea are the obvious examples. Aaron Tshibola should have been playing for us at least a year before he actually got in the team. Aaron Kuhl was good enough for Reading two years ago but he's now in the Conference. Rodgers wanted to release Shane Long. It's a naive simplification to think that players have a single "level". There are lots of factors other than ability that determine whether a player will "make" it at a club, and so sometimes we're going to not get the most out of talented players because we mishandle them.

The best thing we can do for them is to keep a fairly stable environment so that the players know what's expected of them, and the manager feels secure in risking a talented-but-wet player for a few matches. I think a few of the older lads have been screwed over by our constant changes in management.

This is literally what I wanted to say, good point well made

People don't seem to realise there isn't 'that' much between a Conference player and a Championship player, for example Kuhl is kind of both at the moment. Lots of people thought he was a stand out player in his brief cameos before having a shocker up at Forest back in like 2014, but since then he's down playing in Non-League.

So I used to play snooker to a decent level. Despite being pretty good I could still go down the local club and lose a couple of frames to 'Dave,' a bloke who occasionally hits a few balls for an evening or two a week. On the other hand, I took frames off professional players who were amongst the best in the world at the time, so it really depended on the way the match went and how I and my opponent played on the day. Losing to Dave in the local league did not make me a rubbish club player, nor did beating a Top 50 player make me amongst the world's best

Scott Davies bossing the midfield against Chelsea did not make him Champions League worthy, in the same way as turning out for teams like Wealdstone do not make him a bad player. There are small margins involved in turning someone like Aaron Kuhl into a Championship midfielder from a non-leaguer, and it's in these areas that we are letting the youngsters down I feel

Michail Antonio wasn't given a chance with us, just like we aren't giving chances to Fosu or Tanner. At the time, the prospect of Antonio scoring goals literally every weekend in the Premier League and getting called up for England would have seemed ludicrous, but here we are. The bloke who wasn't good enough for us is now far too good for us. Because we took the attitude that "well if he's good enough he'd force his way into the team" towards Antonio like you guys are for all our youngsters at the moment, we got rid of a future England international

[Stranded]

Not sure I understand the last paragraph - we as fans are saying if they are good enough to play they will break through because we have literally no power over their selection.

Stam is bedding in a new style and it would appear at this point in time he trusts the older heads to implement it successfully. Would Fosu or Tanner do a better job that who we are playing at the moment, possibly but the man in charge thinks they need some more minutes regular minutes elsewhere than we can currently offer and the new system is probably a key part of that.

I fully expect that over the course of the season, some of the academy players will come through and get chances. Some will take it some won't. The ones out on loan will have specific plans to follow to show they can come back into the club and slot into the first team squad. If they follow those and impress, they will have a very good chance of breaking through, if not they will move on.

Of course some will end up going on to bigger and better things but others will drop down a division or 4, it's not an exact science. Tanner may well be pulling up trees at Plymouth but does that mean he is ready to play for us, in this system in the Championship, or is he currently just a very good L1/L2 player playing somewhere he feels comfortable in a system built around him?

[Sutekh]

Michail Antonio wasn't given a chance with us, just like we aren't giving chances to Fosu or Tanner. At the time, the prospect of Antonio scoring goals literally every weekend in the Premier League and getting called up for England would have seemed ludicrous, but here we are. The bloke who wasn't good enough for us is now far too good for us. Because we took the attitude that "well if he's good enough he'd force his way into the team" towards Antonio like you guys are for all our youngsters at the moment, we got rid of a future England international

Really frustrated with what the cub did over Antonio. He never should've been allowed to leave following a great loan spell at Sheff Wed and our relegation from the PL. He should have been pencilled in as first choice right winger over the over-rated and generally disappointing Kebe who promptly left for Palace at the end of that August anyway. Another one of Adkins' many mistakes.

[George_]

Michail Antonio wasn't given a chance with us, just like we aren't giving chances to Fosu or Tanner. At the time, the prospect of Antonio scoring goals literally every weekend in the Premier League and getting called up for England would have seemed ludicrous, but here we are. The bloke who wasn't good enough for us is now far too good for us. Because we took the attitude that "well if he's good enough he'd force his way into the team" towards Antonio like you guys are for all our youngsters at the moment, we got rid of a future England international

Really frustrated with what the cub did over Antonio. He never should've been allowed to leave following a great loan spell at Sheff Wed and our relegation from the PL. He should have been pencilled in as first choice right winger over the over-rated and generally disappointing Kebe who promptly left for Palace at the end of that August anyway. Another one of Adkins' many mistakes.

We sold him the summer we got promoted?

[russyb]

The point being Samuel didn't get a go when we were not scoring.

Lets focus on the here and now. Last season he hot injured again and the went on loan, so wasn't really available.

Do his performances this season warrant taking Kermie's place? Not by most accounts of those 'who've seen him play.

Yes but i do think he should be on the bench. I have not been overly impressed with Mendes

[Sutekh]

Michail Antonio wasn't given a chance with us, just like we aren't giving chances to Fosu or Tanner. At the time, the prospect of Antonio scoring goals literally every weekend in the Premier League and getting called up for England would have seemed ludicrous, but here we are. The bloke who wasn't good enough for us is now far too good for us. Because we took the attitude that "well if he's good enough he'd force his way into the team" towards Antonio like you guys are for all our youngsters at the moment, we got rid of a future England international

Really frustrated with what the cub did over Antonio. He never should've been allowed to leave following a great loan spell at Sheff Wed and our relegation from the PL. He should have been pencilled in as first choice right winger over the over-rated and generally disappointing Kebe who promptly left for Palace at the end of that August anyway. Another one of Adkins' many mistakes.

We sold him the summer we got promoted?

No, i think he went on loan to SW that season and Adkins sold him the next August, about 2 weeks before Kebe went off to his ever so successful stint with Palace, despite the fact he had done very well at Wednesday and was obviously a player on the way up - least at Championship level - which is where Reading were playing.

[Maneki Neko]

over-rated and generally disappointing Kebe

GET.THE.oxf*rd.OUTTA.HERE

[Maneki Neko]

Really frustrated with what the cub did over Antonio. He never should've been allowed to leave following a great loan spell at Sheff Wed and our relegation from the PL. He should have been pencilled in as first choice right winger over the over-rated and generally disappointing Kebe who promptly left for Palace at the end of that August anyway. Another one of Adkins' many mistakes.

We sold him the summer we got promoted?

No, i think he went on loan to SW that season and Adkins sold him the next August, about 2 weeks before Kebe went off to his ever so successful stint with Palace, despite the fact he had done very well at Wednesday and was obviously a player on the way up - least at Championship level - which is where Reading were playing.

loaned jan 2012, sold august 2012

was never getting past kebe, and looked like a head down lump every time I saw him play.
much like with cox, it was right to let him leave.
though at least with cox he had the decency to remain shit after wards.

[Ian Royal]

Really frustrated with what the cub did over Antonio. He never should've been allowed to leave following a great loan spell at Sheff Wed and our relegation from the PL. He should have been pencilled in as first choice right winger over the over-rated and generally disappointing Kebe who promptly left for Palace at the end of that August anyway. Another one of Adkins' many mistakes.

We sold him the summer we got promoted?

No, i think he went on loan to SW that season and Adkins sold him the next August, about 2 weeks before Kebe went off to his ever so successful stint with Palace, despite the fact he had done very well at Wednesday and was obviously a player on the way up - least at Championship level - which is where Reading were playing.

You're completely wrong. Antonio left at the end of the season we got promoted to the PL and signed McCleary.

[If you still hate Futcher]

[Michail Antonio] looked like a head down lump every time I saw him play.

To me he just looked nervous (but with potential) which wasn't helped by collective groans from large parts of the crowd whenever he tried something that didn't come off

He was right to leave though because he was never going to get a chance from those people who'd already written him off despite him being a relatively young player when first introduced into the team

[Ian Royal]

[Michail Antonio] looked like a head down lump every time I saw him play.

To me he just looked nervous (but with potential) which wasn't helped by collective groans from large parts of the crowd whenever he tried something that didn't come off

He was right to leave though because he was never going to get a chance from those people who'd already written him off despite him being a relatively young player when first introduced into the team

He absolutely would have got a chance if Zingaravich hadn't arrived and brought Roberts. Kebe would have left, we wouldn't have got promoted and we wouldn't have signed McCleary.

But who gives a oxf*rd rats arse four years later ffs.

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

Ex-Academy centre-back Angus MacDonald getting rave reviews at Barnsley at the moment, come into the side for the last few games and they've conceded one goal ahead of the game tomorrow

Went to Salisbury once we'd got rid, now he's keeping clean sheets for one of the Championship's form teams, didn't see that one coming although remember he was highly talked about when he was playing for England Under 19s

[Nameless]

I wonder if any other cLubs have let players go who turn out to be decent a few years later.
I suspect it's just us !

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

That's not the point though

What I'm trying to say is that the 'youngsters aren't getting a chance because they aren't good enough' argument that keeps getting used on here isn't necessarily that simple

They are good footballers, that's why the club have kept them on the books and offered them professional contracts, and in the right system they could flourish at Championship level just like former youngsters that weren't good enough like Antonio, MacDonald, or League Cup finalist Carl McHugh, or even World Cup appearing Oliver Bozanic proved with what they achieved once they left Reading and were given the opportunity to play

I'd also add that a team of players that grew up together, spent years playing together, and understood each other on the pitch, would probably have a greater chance of succeeding than a side made up of cobbled together journeymen from across the world (see 2015/16 Reading)

When we gave youngsters like Pearce, Karacan, Robson-Kanu and Church a chance to play they were able to help win us a league title, yet their respective careers since suggest they weren't exactly Championship-winning quality, yet because of the team around them they all went on (bar Church) to play at the highest level

The club are preventing opportunities for our own youngsters, because they have been signing players that have done nothing but bloat the squad and block the progress of our homegrown talent, for the sake of what?

I've counted 38 'first-team signings' over the last three years, how many of those have been genuinely worthwhile? For players like Sean Long, Aaron Kuhl, Jack Stacey, and Craig Tanner, it's no wonder they're not progressing if 38 new players join between their first team debuts in 2013/14 and their most recent loans in 2016/17

[Nameless]

Our first team squad is 26 players of whom 3 are out on loan, 1 is a long term injury and one is probably not close to getting a game (Jules). Not sure that is bloated, in fact I'd say it is dangerously thin. Obviously there are players not included in that 26 who could be used but I suspect it's one of the smaller squads.
So the players out gaining experience on loan have every incentive to show progression between now and January as there are clearly places they could grab.
I'm not sure why you are so convinced the youngsters have been sent on loan as a punishment rather than to allow them to get 20 competitive games under their belt.

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

Our first team squad is 26 players of whom 3 are out on loan, 1 is a long term injury and one is probably not close to getting a game (Jules). Not sure that is bloated, in fact I'd say it is dangerously thin. Obviously there are players not included in that 26 who could be used but I suspect it's one of the smaller squads.
So the players out gaining experience on loan have every incentive to show progression between now and January as there are clearly places they could grab.
I'm not sure why you are so convinced the youngsters have been sent on loan as a punishment rather than to allow them to get 20 competitive games under their belt.

Well we've only started 15 different players in the league so far this season, and that's despite two of them getting injured after a couple of appearances (Rakels and Meite), So if you're only making two changes after two months of the season (that being new signings Moore and Blackett), I'm not sure you need (for arguments sake I'm only counting players over the age 21) 24 senior players (plus 3 out on loan in Bond, Long and Hurtado who are not adding anything of worth)

We could argue on squad sizes all night, but if you've got a 'thin' squad made up of 27 senior professionals on top of an endless supply of Under 21s (On a quick count via the website we have around 40+ on our books under contract and scholarship), then you're doing your recruitment all wrong. For comparisons with a successful Championship Reading squad, 2011/12 saw us use less than that (26), and that included Shane Long, Bongani Khumalo, Brynjar Gunnarsson, Tomasz Cywka, Benki Afobe, Michail Antonio, Mathieu Manset and Brynjar Gunnarsson who started less than 15 games between them

A core squad of 18 (like our title-winning squad minus those mentioned), including and supported by Academy players, sounds like a recipe for success. A bloated squad which this one is, in my opinion is not

Apologies for a lot of numbers, but we have a lot of players

[Nameless]

If you think that a 'squad' can consist of just the players you use on match day then sorry but you are not even trying to have a sensible look at things.
And if you think 40 Scholars and u23 players is a lot then again I don't think you are being realistic. Those 40 players make up 2 full teams, and we have the equivalent of a third team out on loan.
Come mid season when you may have half a dozen players injured and suspended then your squad of 18 looks very thin.
2 players per position has to be the ideal squad size....

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

If you think that a 'squad' can consist of just the players you use on match day then sorry but you are not even trying to have a sensible look at things.
And if you think 40 Scholars and u23 players is a lot then again I don't think you are being realistic. Those 40 players make up 2 full teams, and we have the equivalent of a third team out on loan.
Come mid season when you may have half a dozen players injured and suspended then your squad of 18 looks very thin.
2 players per position has to be the ideal squad size....

That's literally not what I'm saying though

18 senior professionals, plus however many youngsters you want from your pool of 40 to bolster your depth, would make up a perfectly sensible squad

Come mid season when there's around 9 or 10 senior first team members not making the match-day 18 every single week, that's when the problems start and the morale drops

I use the 2011/12 season as an example, as pretty much every single member of that squad was involved in the first team, so there was genuine 'togetherness' and unsurprisingly we turned out pretty successful

The 106 team had just 16 players who started on more than one occasion, and they weren't too bad either. Every single senior pro was in the first team every week, and they were supported by youngsters like Shane Long when the injuries struck

I don't think we need 27 senior professionals on top of the Academy to get through a season, and I personally think describing our squad as 'thin' is a bit mental, especially when compared to our two most successful squads ever

[Saaaaaaaammmmmm]

If you look at the squad written down, you begin to realise it's just far too bloated

I would argue once you hit the age of 21, you'd want to be playing regular first-team football, and the 29 players contracted to Reading that fall into this category are:

Ali Al-Habsi
Anssi Jaakkola
Jonathan Bond
Stuart Moore
Chris Gunter
Jake Cooper
Paul McShane
Jordan Obita
Liam Moore
Tyler Blackett
Danzell Gravenberch
Shane Griffin
Niall Keown
Sean Long
Joey van den Berg
George Evans
Roy Beerens
John Swift
Gareth McCleary
Callum Harriott
Sandro Wieser
Stephen Quinn
Danny Williams
Craig Tanner
Paolo Hurtado
Joseph Mendes
Deniss Rakels
Dominic Samuel
Yann Kermorgant

Then you've got Under 21s who may show a bit more patience, but as they've already experienced first-team football at some point they'll be pushing to get more games themselves, and those 17 players at Reading who have played in any professional league and cup competitions already are:

Lewis Ward
Rob Dickie
Tennai Watson
Thomas McIntyre
Dominic Hyam
Axel Andresson
Gabriel Osho
Jake Sheppard
Aaron Kuhl
Tyler Frost
Liam Kelly
Andy Rinomhota
Josh Barrett
Jack Stacey
Tarique Fosu
Harry Cardwell
Andrija Novakovich

So that's 46 contracted players in total, and that's not even including players who have made the bench but not the pitch for the first time, like Zak Jules for example

Is that squad really too thin, or are there just too many first-team ready players competing for a place in the matchday 18?