Ex Players

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muirinho
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Re: Ex Players

by muirinho » 13 May 2019 13:50

sandman Sounds like they were only doing what Gomes did with some of the players when he got here.

Interesting that the man who signed off on this "biggest contract of my career" is absent from this story.

I know it doesn't fit the HNA? narrative but could it be that Clement and Tevreden were trying to clean up Gourlay's mess and get an extremely average defensive midfielder who was on high wages off the books? Particularly as Moore seemed to suggest upper management were the ones stalling during his transfer/contract signing saga last summer.


Joey wasn't "Gourlay's mess" (as a signing) - Gourlay came in July 2017. Joey signed in summer of 2016. So his salary might have been high relative to Dutch 2nd division, but it wasn't a Gourlay salary. Most likely it was "decent Championship" salary - for a "decent Championship" player. And he earned that salary in the first season - it wasn't a poor signing.

Clearly Clement didn't rate him. Three possibilities that I can see
(1) he may have told BT to get him off the books and then went on holiday, and came back and found nothing had happened
(2) he was responsible for the late decision
(3) despite not particularly rating him he wanted to keep him as backup, and someone else (Tevreden? Gourlay / Falk?) decided that backup players should be shipped out, and made that decision late on.


Comparison with Gomes is silly. Gomes told players he didn't want them 8 days after joining the club, at the start of the transfer period. Clement had 6 weeks to decide who he wanted the following season, plus another 7 weeks after the end of the season, before pre-season started. Yet he didn't tell Joey till pre-season started. Whoever was responsible for that was not doing a good job there - either for the club OR for the player.

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Re: Ex Players

by sandman » 13 May 2019 13:55

muirinho
sandman Sounds like they were only doing what Gomes did with some of the players when he got here.

Interesting that the man who signed off on this "biggest contract of my career" is absent from this story.

I know it doesn't fit the HNA? narrative but could it be that Clement and Tevreden were trying to clean up Gourlay's mess and get an extremely average defensive midfielder who was on high wages off the books? Particularly as Moore seemed to suggest upper management were the ones stalling during his transfer/contract signing saga last summer.


Joey wasn't "Gourlay's mess" (as a signing) - Gourlay came in July 2017. Joey signed in summer of 2016. So his salary might have been high relative to Dutch 2nd division, but it wasn't a Gourlay salary. Most likely it was "decent Championship" salary - for a "decent Championship" player. And he earned that salary in the first season - it wasn't a poor signing.

Clearly Clement didn't rate him. Three possibilities that I can see
(1) he may have told BT to get him off the books and then went on holiday, and came back and found nothing had happened
(2) he was responsible for the late decision
(3) despite not particularly rating him he wanted to keep him as backup, and someone else (Tevreden? Gourlay / Falk?) decided that backup players should be shipped out, and made that decision late on.


Comparison with Gomes is silly. Gomes told players he didn't want them 8 days after joining the club, at the start of the transfer period. Clement had 6 weeks to decide who he wanted the following season, plus another 7 weeks after the end of the season, before pre-season started. Yet he didn't tell Joey till pre-season started. Whoever was responsible for that was not doing a good job there - either for the club OR for the player.


Except he was Gourlay's mess because he signed a contract extension on Gourlay's watch.

https://www.readingfc.co.uk/news/2017/september/van-den-berg-extends-royals-contract/




Gomes worked with a chief executive who wanted to get those players out quickly. Clement was working with one who has a track record of stalling over these things. That's according to our captain, who I assume you are not calling a liar.

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Re: Ex Players

by muirinho » 13 May 2019 14:07

sandman
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sandman Sounds like they were only doing what Gomes did with some of the players when he got here.

Interesting that the man who signed off on this "biggest contract of my career" is absent from this story.

I know it doesn't fit the HNA? narrative but could it be that Clement and Tevreden were trying to clean up Gourlay's mess and get an extremely average defensive midfielder who was on high wages off the books? Particularly as Moore seemed to suggest upper management were the ones stalling during his transfer/contract signing saga last summer.


Joey wasn't "Gourlay's mess" (as a signing) - Gourlay came in July 2017. Joey signed in summer of 2016. So his salary might have been high relative to Dutch 2nd division, but it wasn't a Gourlay salary. Most likely it was "decent Championship" salary - for a "decent Championship" player. And he earned that salary in the first season - it wasn't a poor signing.


Except he was because he signed a contract extension on Gourlay's watch.

https://www.readingfc.co.uk/news/2017/september/van-den-berg-extends-royals-contract/




Ah, I missed that. Sorry.

Still cannot be compared to what Gomes did in January though, and I very much doubt Clement was cleaning up Gourlay's messes - if he had any intention of doing that, he'd have started as soon as the 17/18 season ended, and would have started with Aluko, not Van Den Berg

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Re: Ex Players

by Hound » 13 May 2019 14:18

wonder how much money we lost on the year extensions for McShane, Joey and Yann. 3 players that no other club would have likely taken off our hands at the end of last season anyway. And we managed I think 5 games out of the 3 of them this season.

1.5 mill? 2?

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Re: Ex Players

by Forbury Lion » 13 May 2019 15:05

I just read the Joey interview https://www.getreading.co.uk/sport/foot ... s-16245811

In summary, for anyone who can't be bothered to read it but can strangely be bothered to read my post instead.

After 1 month break Clement and Tevreden wait until the first day back to call Joey in and tell him he's not in their plans, He can either play for the U23's or leave.

Joey say's why didn't you tell me 1 month ago? also say's he's staying as he's on the best contract he's ever had. He say's things might have been different if handled better/he might not have dug his heels in.

He praises the U23's coach Scott Marshall and says they were doing loads of good work with the ball while he watched the first team just running their arses off.


My thoughts, based on the assumption the article is accurate

Why didn't they tell him he wasn't in their plans sooner? - Were they waiting to sign a replacement or were they working on a day to day basis with no real long term plans?

Clearly they were trying to force his hand by making him play for the reserves, not a nice tactic and handled very badly by the manager and DoF

Best contract he's ever had - Sounds like we were overpaying him, A symptom of the Gourley/Tevreden era?

It sounds like the U23's were better managed in training than the first team!


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Re: Ex Players

by URZZZZ » 13 May 2019 16:34

Hound wonder how much money we lost on the year extensions for McShane, Joey and Yann. 3 players that no other club would have likely taken off our hands at the end of last season anyway. And we managed I think 5 games out of the 3 of them this season.

1.5 mill? 2?


There's no doubt we wasted money looking at it now. But at the time, they were three good players who plenty of Championship teams would have bought. Yann had just scored 20 goals or so, and Joey and McShane were instrumental to us coming 3rd. At the time, myself and I'm sure a lot of people thought they were good bits of business

What we didn't know was how how much Gourlay gave them. Cannot believe how careless we were

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Re: Ex Players

by Hound » 13 May 2019 16:38

I wouldn’t agree that anyone else much would have bought them (not at McShane and Yann’s age). Could easily have offered them a new deal at the end of the season if we’d needed to

Don’t think it’s just hindsight - Many said similar at the time

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Re: Ex Players

by URZZZZ » 13 May 2019 16:45

Trouble is Yann was planning to retire, and the longer we left it to try and persuade him to stay on, the more chance he'd have retired. Had we have left it to the end of the season, there's no way he would have accepted the new contract. Let's be honest, people did say Yann wouldn't have the same impact after his injury, but no-one knew how far he'd would fall

McShane would have been picked up by quite a few clubs I think. Experienced warhorse and could certainly have seen someone like Mick McCarthy go for him

Joey, probably not, but he wasn't as old as Yann or McShane anyway so it made sense. Plus, not many really liked him anyway due to being Dutch and a manager's favourite

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Re: Ex Players

by muirinho » 13 May 2019 16:46

URZZZZ
Hound wonder how much money we lost on the year extensions for McShane, Joey and Yann. 3 players that no other club would have likely taken off our hands at the end of last season anyway. And we managed I think 5 games out of the 3 of them this season.

1.5 mill? 2?


There's no doubt we wasted money looking at it now. But at the time, they were three good players who plenty of Championship teams would have bought. Yann had just scored 20 goals or so, and Joey and McShane were instrumental to us coming 3rd. At the time, myself and I'm sure a lot of people thought they were good bits of business

What we didn't know was how how much Gourlay gave them. Cannot believe how careless we were


Do we know now how much he gave them? Like - is the problem definitely excessively high pay levels as opposed to - too many players in the squad

Someone on one of the other threads said that Andy Yiadom was on less than £10K a week - even though he was a Gourlay-era signing.

Seems to me there's a lot of people have a lot of confidence that they know how much various players are getting paid. Not sure if anyone on here knows.


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Re: Ex Players

by URZZZZ » 13 May 2019 17:15

muirinho
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Hound wonder how much money we lost on the year extensions for McShane, Joey and Yann. 3 players that no other club would have likely taken off our hands at the end of last season anyway. And we managed I think 5 games out of the 3 of them this season.

1.5 mill? 2?


There's no doubt we wasted money looking at it now. But at the time, they were three good players who plenty of Championship teams would have bought. Yann had just scored 20 goals or so, and Joey and McShane were instrumental to us coming 3rd. At the time, myself and I'm sure a lot of people thought they were good bits of business

What we didn't know was how how much Gourlay gave them. Cannot believe how careless we were


Do we know now how much he gave them? Like - is the problem definitely excessively high pay levels as opposed to - too many players in the squad

Someone on one of the other threads said that Andy Yiadom was on less than £10K a week - even though he was a Gourlay-era signing.

Seems to me there's a lot of people have a lot of confidence that they know how much various players are getting paid. Not sure if anyone on here knows.


I'm not in the know and have never claimed to be and it's probably a mixture of the two things you said. I doubt many people know to be honest, but after the discussion between myself and Denver, I can't say anyone is definitely wrong

But you can still make inferences. Joey's comments, player's reactions (Moore's interview), the state of the finances etc...it's just me making a prediction

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Re: Ex Players

by muirinho » 14 May 2019 09:46

URZZZZ
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There's no doubt we wasted money looking at it now. But at the time, they were three good players who plenty of Championship teams would have bought. Yann had just scored 20 goals or so, and Joey and McShane were instrumental to us coming 3rd. At the time, myself and I'm sure a lot of people thought they were good bits of business

What we didn't know was how how much Gourlay gave them. Cannot believe how careless we were


Do we know now how much he gave them? Like - is the problem definitely excessively high pay levels as opposed to - too many players in the squad

Someone on one of the other threads said that Andy Yiadom was on less than £10K a week - even though he was a Gourlay-era signing.

Seems to me there's a lot of people have a lot of confidence that they know how much various players are getting paid. Not sure if anyone on here knows.


I'm not in the know and have never claimed to be and it's probably a mixture of the two things you said. I doubt many people know to be honest, but after the discussion between myself and Denver, I can't say anyone is definitely wrong

But you can still make inferences. Joey's comments, player's reactions (Moore's interview), the state of the finances etc...it's just me making a prediction


Wasn't meant as a dig at you, more of a general comment. Joey's "best contract ever" might be peanuts in comparison to, say, what McShane was on. Which makes it hard to judge whether he was sticking up for what was right, or screwing the club, if you see what I mean.
I don't think he's a Jack Rodwell in any case.

I find it hard to believe Yiadom is only on 10K though!*



Amazing how I can think - only 10K a week - bargain. Football finances are mad!

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Re: Ex Players

by Nameless » 14 May 2019 10:54

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Not sure what is wrong with is comment in the context it was made. Why should he be forced to walk away from his biggest pay check of his career ? Lower level Dutch football doesn’t pay great wages and hismove here would have been significant in terms of his long term future. Nothing wrong with him defending his livelihood.


Yep, I can see why the comment might be thought of as blunt. But I'm at a loss as to how it is arrogant. Also, unless the club actually comes out and tells him that he is surplus to requirements, even if he thinks the current manager won't play him, that doesn't mean it's down to him to start looking for another club. There was no guarantee, that when he came back for pre-season, it would still be the same manager!

It was badly handled. Whether that was down to Clement, or Tevreden, or someone else, we don't know. (They may have been the messengers, rather than the decision-makers).


Maybe arrogant was the wrong word, but it shows a lack of class . "I said even if you let me train with the U12s, I'm not going anywhere because this was my best contract ever". So he'd rather get paid more doing nothing than what he should actually get paid for


He was quite prepared to do the job he was paid for, we chose not to give him that opportunity. He's nearing the end of his career and it's his job not a hobby. He has a family and when he dropped out of football a while pack he ended up working in a pizza restaurant. On that basis ensuring he maximises his earnings while he can is understandable, £10k a month is huge money but if you are building up a fund to give your family a good living for the next 30 years and your prospects of a well paid job outside football are not so high you are going to be reluctant to walk away from a contract.

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Re: Ex Players

by Coppells Lost Coat » 14 May 2019 13:35

We are the mugs for giving an average at best player a decent contract. He had a few game spell last season where he was looking good, after that he was very bad. He isn't the 1st footballer to see out a good contract and certainly wont be the last. And of course if you can get away with it, everyone would take a huge pay rise for a job you know you wont be doing, you'd take it.


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Re: Ex Players

by CountryRoyal » 14 May 2019 14:06

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Yep, I can see why the comment might be thought of as blunt. But I'm at a loss as to how it is arrogant. Also, unless the club actually comes out and tells him that he is surplus to requirements, even if he thinks the current manager won't play him, that doesn't mean it's down to him to start looking for another club. There was no guarantee, that when he came back for pre-season, it would still be the same manager!

It was badly handled. Whether that was down to Clement, or Tevreden, or someone else, we don't know. (They may have been the messengers, rather than the decision-makers).


Maybe arrogant was the wrong word, but it shows a lack of class . "I said even if you let me train with the U12s, I'm not going anywhere because this was my best contract ever". So he'd rather get paid more doing nothing than what he should actually get paid for


He was quite prepared to do the job he was paid for, we chose not to give him that opportunity. He's nearing the end of his career and it's his job not a hobby. He has a family and when he dropped out of football a while pack he ended up working in a pizza restaurant. On that basis ensuring he maximises his earnings while he can is understandable, £10k a month is huge money but if you are building up a fund to give your family a good living for the next 30 years and your prospects of a well paid job outside football are not so high you are going to be reluctant to walk away from a contract.


10k a month is shit. I assume you mean per week.

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Re: Ex Players

by Hendo » 14 May 2019 14:10

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Maybe arrogant was the wrong word, but it shows a lack of class . "I said even if you let me train with the U12s, I'm not going anywhere because this was my best contract ever". So he'd rather get paid more doing nothing than what he should actually get paid for


He was quite prepared to do the job he was paid for, we chose not to give him that opportunity. He's nearing the end of his career and it's his job not a hobby. He has a family and when he dropped out of football a while pack he ended up working in a pizza restaurant. On that basis ensuring he maximises his earnings while he can is understandable, £10k a month is huge money but if you are building up a fund to give your family a good living for the next 30 years and your prospects of a well paid job outside football are not so high you are going to be reluctant to walk away from a contract.


10k a month is shit. I assume you mean per week.


Shit for Championship footballers maybe but I certainly wont be turning my nose up at £10k/month :wink:

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Re: Ex Players

by CountryRoyal » 14 May 2019 14:18

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He was quite prepared to do the job he was paid for, we chose not to give him that opportunity. He's nearing the end of his career and it's his job not a hobby. He has a family and when he dropped out of football a while pack he ended up working in a pizza restaurant. On that basis ensuring he maximises his earnings while he can is understandable, £10k a month is huge money but if you are building up a fund to give your family a good living for the next 30 years and your prospects of a well paid job outside football are not so high you are going to be reluctant to walk away from a contract.


10k a month is shit. I assume you mean per week.


Shit for Championship footballers maybe but I certainly wont be turning my nose up at £10k/month :wink:


Yeah I wouldn't say no atm.

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Re: Ex Players

by Nameless » 14 May 2019 14:51

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10k a month is shit. I assume you mean per week.


Shit for Championship footballers maybe but I certainly wont be turning my nose up at £10k/month :wink:


Yeah I wouldn't say no atm.


10k a month is extraordinary money for anyone, but of course in the unreal world of football most Championship players would find 10k a month verging on minimum wage levels....

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Re: Ex Players

by muirinho » 14 May 2019 14:59

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Shit for Championship footballers maybe but I certainly wont be turning my nose up at £10k/month :wink:


Yeah I wouldn't say no atm.


10k a month is extraordinary money for anyone, but of course in the unreal world of football most Championship players would find 10k a month verging on minimum wage levels....


If you only get it for 5 years, and the rest of the time you *are* on minimum wage levels because your next most qualified job is as shop assistant in Sports Direct - I can see how that might colour your attitude to it.

Not every footballer is cut out to coach or manage, or go into media.

Academies don't do enough to make the kids get other qualifications IMO.

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Re: Ex Players

by CountryRoyal » 14 May 2019 15:17

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Shit for Championship footballers maybe but I certainly wont be turning my nose up at £10k/month :wink:


Yeah I wouldn't say no atm.


10k a month is extraordinary money for anyone, but of course in the unreal world of football most Championship players would find 10k a month verging on minimum wage levels....


Even in the real world 10k a month isn’t extraordinary for “anyone”. What’s that £75k take home? Don’t get me wrong it’s a very big salary and miles ahead of the average but it’s pretty modest for a lot of people, not least professional footballers.

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Re: Ex Players

by Denver Royal » 14 May 2019 15:26

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Yeah I wouldn't say no atm.


10k a month is extraordinary money for anyone, but of course in the unreal world of football most Championship players would find 10k a month verging on minimum wage levels....


If you only get it for 5 years, and the rest of the time you *are* on minimum wage levels because your next most qualified job is as shop assistant in Sports Direct - I can see how that might colour your attitude to it.

Not every footballer is cut out to coach or manage, or go into media.

Academies don't do enough to make the kids get other qualifications IMO.

Good point. I'm not exactly sure what the Academies do these days (if anything), but I'm sure it could be more.

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