BFTG Wigan.

[Victor Meldrew]

agreed on Gunter, though I suspect it was just a couple of idiots. Been a good servant and always gives his best. Though didn't look like he had a great game based on the highlights

On Aluko - yes obviously you shouldn't boo your own player etc, but its much more understandable. Big money signing who has just phoned in performances since he got here, and clearly should be nowhere near the team.

So we're adding "great servant" to "great athlete" and "he's picked for Wales" on the list of the qualities of Gunter.

Nothing about ability around his own box or the opposition's box.

[Coppells Lost Coat]

agreed on Gunter, though I suspect it was just a couple of idiots. Been a good servant and always gives his best. Though didn't look like he had a great game based on the highlights

On Aluko - yes obviously you shouldn't boo your own player etc, but its much more understandable. Big money signing who has just phoned in performances since he got here, and clearly should be nowhere near the team.

I always thought a RB was only as good as the player in front of him, unfortunately, it has mainly been Aluko in front of him.....
I can only imagine how frustrating it would be to have Aluko as your back up, cover, your 1st player to look for when defending and attacking. Gunters options are overlap, then Aluko loses the ball and both be out of position or stay conservative and brace himself for a bit of an insertion.
Always though Gunter has been going slowly downhill the past 2 years, maybe he got a bit complacent and comfortable without a real challenge for his spot in that time.

[Snowball]

This list is incredible (as in dire)

More than a third predicted a defeat, another third predicted a draw, yet when we avoided defeat and get the draw, it turns out it’s “obvious” we should be winning these games!

Let me remind you, after six games we were rock bottom and we have slowly but surely improved on that position.

This 0-0 away is a solid result, a better than expected result.

It also means WDD in our last three, five points from three games (1.67 ppg) a ppg that, if maintained over 46 games would equate to a 77 point season and a play off spot.

[Ascotexgunner]

agreed on Gunter, though I suspect it was just a couple of idiots. Been a good servant and always gives his best. Though didn't look like he had a great game based on the highlights

On Aluko - yes obviously you shouldn't boo your own player etc, but its much more understandable. Big money signing who has just phoned in performances since he got here, and clearly should be nowhere near the team.

So we're adding "great servant" to "great athlete" and "he's picked for Wales" on the list of the qualities of Gunter.

Nothing about ability around his own box or the opposition's box.

Two points.....
1) Eden Hazard never owned him in a Wales shirt since 2012.....and
2) He set up THAT goal for Sam Vokes

[NewCorkSeth]

This list is incredible (as in dire)

More than a third predicted a defeat, another third predicted a draw, yet when we avoided defeat and get the draw, it turns out it’s “obvious” we should be winning these games!

Let me remind you, after six games we were rock bottom and we have slowly but surely improved on that position.

This 0-0 away is a solid result, a better than expected result.

It also means WDD in our last three, five points from three games (1.67 ppg) a ppg that, if maintained over 46 games would equate to a 77 point season and a play off spot.

Can you please pick a number of games for extrapolating form and stick to it.

It'll make it easier to track progress. I suggest we start a thread called "the 6 game plan" and break up all our 6 game blocks there to see if we continue on the upward trend.

[Snowflake Royal]

This list is incredible (as in dire)

More than a third predicted a defeat, another third predicted a draw, yet when we avoided defeat and get the draw, it turns out it’s “obvious” we should be winning these games!

Let me remind you, after six games we were rock bottom and we have slowly but surely improved on that position.

This 0-0 away is a solid result, a better than expected result.

It also means WDD in our last three, five points from three games (1.67 ppg) a ppg that, if maintained over 46 games would equate to a 77 point season and a play off spot.

Can you give us an update on the 6 game form, now we've hit 18 so it's three clear sections.
A rolling version would be super nice too. I ask because you've already done all the work once with only one game missing.

[NewCorkSeth]

This list is incredible (as in dire)

More than a third predicted a defeat, another third predicted a draw, yet when we avoided defeat and get the draw, it turns out it’s “obvious” we should be winning these games!

Let me remind you, after six games we were rock bottom and we have slowly but surely improved on that position.

This 0-0 away is a solid result, a better than expected result.

It also means WDD in our last three, five points from three games (1.67 ppg) a ppg that, if maintained over 46 games would equate to a 77 point season and a play off spot.

Can you give us an update on the 6 game form, now we've hit 18 so it's three clear sections.
A rolling version would be super nice too. I ask because you've already done all the work once with only one game missing.

(He should start the thread I suggested above)

[Lower West]

It also means WDD in our last three, five points from three games (1.67 ppg) a ppg that, if maintained over 46 games would equate to a 77 point season and a play off spot.

Better to focus on a game at a time.

Been a long time since we've outplayed any team at the top of the Championship.

[oldebiscuit]

I disagree, I think his relationship with the fans is non-repairable now, with the chants of "Off, off, off" when he got booked from our own fans. Pretty sad how juvenile some of our fans are, I don't particularly rate him but how will that help his confidence at all.

I see J Low try to raise the same point but was completely shut down by these "so called fans" claiming they can do whatever they want because they paid their hard earned money. In reality, it's not as if people are forced to go and watch, some of our fans really are pathetic, I'd love to see their reaction on a cold Tuesday night in Grimsby losing 3-0!

When all said and done a 0-0 draw away at Wigan is a good point earnt. People need to get for real, even if we were challenging for a top six place a 0-0 draw at Wigan would be an ok point.

Really?
Against a team that had scored 19 goals in 18 games previously and on the back of them having 4(?) straight defeats.
It might have been a good point if we had been winning most of our games but it came on the back of a point against the bottom club at home.
A point per game average probably means relegation.

To climb the table we need to win some more games but your "get real" about a point gained against a team just up from Div 1 when just 2 seasons ago we were so near to a Premier League spot strikes me as unreal.
My how our expectations appear to have dropped.

Yes, really, and I think any Manager in charge of us at the present would agree.

Expectations are just a mixture of hope and delusion. Every season that Sunderland spent in the premiership, their fans expected to be challenging for a Champions League spot. Really.

[Snowball]

01-06 LLLDDL 05-09 02 Points (15)
07-12 WLWDLL 10-11 07 Points (54)
13-18 WLLWDD 09-09 08 Points (61)

So first six games, lost four, next six lost three, this six lost two

First six games extrapolated to a season of just 15 points, next six 54, next six 61

First six negative GD of 4 goals, next -1, next, even

First six games no clean sheets, next six one clean sheet, next six one clean sheet

[Snowflake Royal]

01-06 LLLDDL 05-09 02 Points (15)
07-12 WLWDLL 10-11 07 Points (54)
13-18 WLLWDD 09-09 08 Points (61)

So first six games, lost four, next six lost three, this six lost two

First six games extrapolated to a season of just 15 points, next six 54, next six 61

First six negative GD of 4 goals, next -1, next, even

First six games no clean sheets, next six one clean sheet, next six one clean sheet

Thanks snowy.

[Snowball]

01-06 LLLDDL 05-09 02 Points (15)
07-12 WLWDLL 10-11 07 Points (54)
13-18 WLLWDD 09-09 08 Points (61)

So first six games, lost four, next six lost three, this six lost two

First six games extrapolated to a season of just 15 points, next six 54, next six 61

First six negative GD of 4 goals, next -1, next, even

First six games no clean sheets, next six one clean sheet, next six one clean sheet

Thanks snowy.

Yer welcome

[Snowball]

Essentially, our terrible start (6 Games) is blinding people

Since that block we have played 12 games for 15 points at 1.25 ppg

1.25 ppg extrapolates to 57.5 points (57/58) for a season.

18 games at that rate would have accrued 22 or 23 points and would see us about 13th (Stoke) or 14th (Bristol)

Like most here I don’t think we are a great side, but we have decent players

The main issue is lack of confidence stemming from Stam’s team’s horrible decline, just escaping relegation under Clement, and our bad (points-wise) start

Most think we “should have won” our opening game v Derby

Just that one win and we would be 13th

I worry about this coming 6-game block, especially if it starts with a heavy reverse at Elland Road, but a close game, even if a defeat and I won’t be panicking

Seven points from the next six would be great, even six draws would be nice

Excluding improvents due to the January transfer window, I would expect us to get 35 points from the next 28 games taking us to 52.

However, if we settle at 1.25 ppg (say the next 12 games = 15) I’d expect a confidence bonus and a finish 57-61

EZA’s return would be nice, and a shake up in January, but I don’t think a 60+ finish is over-optimistic

[Victor Meldrew]

Essentially, our terrible start (6 Games) is blinding people

Since that block we have played 12 games for 15 points at 1.25 ppg

1.25 ppg extrapolates to 57.5 points (57/58) for a season.

18 games at that rate would have accrued 22 or 23 points and would see us about 13th (Stoke) or 14th (Bristol)

Like most here I don’t think we are a great side, but we have decent players

The main issue is lack of confidence stemming from Stam’s team’s horrible decline, just escaping relegation under Clement, and our bad (points-wise) start

Most think we “should have won” our opening game v Derby

Just that one win and we would be 13th

I worry about this coming 6-game block, especially if it starts with a heavy reverse at Elland Road, but a close game, even if a defeat and I won’t be panicking

Seven points from the next six would be great, even six draws would be nice

Excluding improvents due to the January transfer window, I would expect us to get 35 points from the next 28 games taking us to 52.

However, if we settle at 1.25 ppg (say the next 12 games = 15) I’d expect a confidence bonus and a finish 57-61

EZA’s return would be nice, and a shake up in January, but I don’t think a 60+ finish is over-optimistic

Aren't YOU blinded by the block of 12 games?
You are assuming that we continue the improvement but is there any logic to that?
We have just got one point per game against the bottom club and the one that had lost 4 on the trot so why should you expect us to maintain the 1.25 points per game when 3 of our next 5 games are against teams in the top 6?

You also talk of us having a shake-up in January and as if Eza's return will be that of our Messiah but don't you think that other teams might have injured players returning and might also spend some money in January?
You speak of the Derby game as one we should have won so, for balance what about those we "should" have lost?

Your stats when they relate to the future are nonsense as there is no way that you can predict the form of the opposition let alone the form of our disjointed side.

As the old boy poster said earlier , fans are delusional and struggle with reality-I wouldn't disagree with that but it is the hope that kills us and brings us back for more so I would love it if your projections were correct but I see little on the pitch to make me share that positivity.
Hope is what I am left with and I "hope" we get a jammy win at Leeds tonight just as we did last season when we "shouldn't" have won.

[NewCorkSeth]

Vic he's merely pointing out that that form has improved from each 6 game block. Obviously you cannot extrapolate future ppg from that.
It's a worthy idea to keep track of form over the season. It obviously has no bearing on performances.

[Victor Meldrew]

Vic he's merely pointing out that that form has improved from each 6 game block. Obviously you cannot extrapolate future ppg from that.
It's a worthy idea to keep track of form over the season. It obviously has no bearing on performances.

So, in a nutshell, if we play a bit better we get a few more points.

[Hopeful]

Negatives
- Why drop Yiadom - arguably our player of the season
- No width at all
- Too many backward passes
- No urgency in our play
- Fans sarcastically cheering Aluko sub which was completely unessecary after his performance today which wasn’t that bad, McCleary rightly turned round and gestured to fans to make them stop - just embarrassing
- Wigan were nothing special at all, and still probably deserved to win the game

I will start with the fact I wasn't there and I haven't read many of the replies/posts on this thread - sorry.

But, I suspect these 3 points are related.
i.e. without width, if you can't pass forward due to congestion, you can only pass backwards.
Passing backwards always creates a lack of urgency.

The only way round this is to launch the ball forward quickly via longer passes, which negates the lack of urgency and avoids passing backwards, but without the width, there is no-one to receive the ball in the channels. The width could be created by the wing-backs, but they are generally the ones launching the ball forward in the above approach.

Only an observation, but I am sure there is a link between choice of formation a manager selects, and his/her preferred style of play...

[Snowflake Royal]

General trend is improvement. We're bound to dip again, but we're also quite likely to have a better run at some point.

Key is how we react.

Even if we lose the next 5 we're unlikely to be adrift.

[NewCorkSeth]

Vic he's merely pointing out that that form has improved from each 6 game block. Obviously you cannot extrapolate future ppg from that.
It's a worthy idea to keep track of form over the season. It obviously has no bearing on performances.

So, in a nutshell, if we play a bit better we get a few more points.

Oh dont get me wrong i think we have been shite for the most part and that luck has been more important than any tactics weve tried but at the end of the day points is all that matters in a relegation battle.

[Snowball]

Essentially, our terrible start (6 Games) is blinding people

Since that block we have played 12 games for 15 points at 1.25 ppg

1.25 ppg extrapolates to 57.5 points (57/58) for a season.

18 games at that rate would have accrued 22 or 23 points and would see us about 13th (Stoke) or 14th (Bristol)

Like most here I don’t think we are a great side, but we have decent players

The main issue is lack of confidence stemming from Stam’s team’s horrible decline, just escaping relegation under Clement, and our bad (points-wise) start

Most think we “should have won” our opening game v Derby

Just that one win and we would be 13th

I worry about this coming 6-game block, especially if it starts with a heavy reverse at Elland Road, but a close game, even if a defeat and I won’t be panicking

Seven points from the next six would be great, even six draws would be nice

Excluding improvents due to the January transfer window, I would expect us to get 35 points from the next 28 games taking us to 52.

However, if we settle at 1.25 ppg (say the next 12 games = 15) I’d expect a confidence bonus and a finish 57-61

EZA’s return would be nice, and a shake up in January, but I don’t think a 60+ finish is over-optimistic

Aren't YOU blinded by the block of 12 games?
You are assuming that we continue the improvement but is there any logic to that?
We have just got one point per game against the bottom club and the one that had lost 4 on the trot so why should you expect us to maintain the 1.25 points per game when 3 of our next 5 games are against teams in the top 6?

You also talk of us having a shake-up in January and as if Eza's return will be that of our Messiah but don't you think that other teams might have injured players returning and might also spend some money in January?
You speak of the Derby game as one we should have won so, for balance what about those we "should" have lost?

Your stats when they relate to the future are nonsense as there is no way that you can predict the form of the opposition let alone the form of our disjointed side.

As the old boy poster said earlier , fans are delusional and struggle with reality-I wouldn't disagree with that but it is the hope that kills us and brings us back for more so I would love it if your projections were correct but I see little on the pitch to make me share that positivity.
Hope is what I am left with and I "hope" we get a jammy win at Leeds tonight just as we did last season when we "shouldn't" have won.

First CURRENT form is a much better guide than games played 18/17/16 games ago.

Second “Form last six games” and sometimes 9/12 games is virtually the “industry standard", the NORM for judging a team. For example, Bolton started with a backs-to-the-wall win at WBA, knocked the points off us and had a very good start. But SINCE THEN, their lack of quality has begun to show through.

After six games we were joint bottom, NINE points and four goals GD behind Bolton. We are now above them, having gained ELEVEN goals GD and all those 9 points in just 12 games.

The idea that a 12-game stat, (especially the 12 most recent games) is irrelevant, or that anyone can be “blinded” by them is, frankly, perverse.