Gomes: Early Form Check In

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Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Feb 2019 17:47

So I said on the Villa thread before the game, that we're getting to the point where Gomes is starting to have been here long enough to take a look at the team's form under him in comparison to what went before. So I thought I'd post up the numbers.

Obviously there's a bunch of different ways you can present stats and they're only part of the picture... I can honestly say I have no interest in trying to get a specific outcome with this. When Gomes was appointed there was a bunch of talk about how he could have little time to have an impact given we were in the festive slog, so I'm going to put his first two games under Marshall's caretaker stint to bring that up to 5, Gomes has had 5 games since then, and Clement did 20 which breaks down into 4 sets of 5, so there's a bit of symmetry.

Clement 1: W0, D2, L3, PPG 0.4, GD -3
Clement 2: W2, D1, L2, PPG 1.4, GD 2
Clement 3: W1, D0, L4, PPG 0.6, GD -5
Clement 4: W1, D3, L1, PPG 1.2, GD 0
Marshall *: W0, D2, L3, PPG 0.4, GD -4
Gomes___: W1, D2, L2, PPG 1.0, GD -2

Clement first 8______: W2, D2, L4, PPG 1.0, GD -9
Clement this season: W4, D6, L10, PPG 0.9, GD -6
Gomes Total________: W1, D3, L3, PPG 0.9, GD -3

So, without a doubt, Gomes has improved things on where we were when he started, but that's only because when Clement got sacked we completely fell to pieces worse than we'd been under Clement. Gomes is doing about as well as Clement was, which was heading pretty much straight for that knife edge of relegation around the 40 - 50 point mark.

At Denver's request I've included Clement's start last season as a comparison to Gomes, not quite the same number of games yet. Anything but a win next and it's a worse start for Gomes. Personally, I don't consider it very relevant as the circumstances are different and we're focused on this season, with Gomes brought in to improve on how Clement was doing at the end of his stint, not the beginning (although all of it was much of a muchness statswise).

For those of you who prefer six game form, I may well knock up something for that and update the Clement first 8 vs Gomes first 8 comparison after Wednesday.

So in summary, Gomes has steadied the ship from the horrendous disruption of Clement going, but that just holds us on course for possible / probable relegation. He needs to show a similar improvement to his current form to the one he showed to the Marshall caretaker period above if we want to have any confidence of staying up.

He seems nice, passionate and engaged. He's made some good moves to trim the squad and keep our options open with his signings. Got to deliver on the pitch though, because points wise it's not looking great.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by 72 bus » 02 Feb 2019 22:30

Snowflake Royal So I said on the Villa thread before the game, that we're getting to the point where Gomes is starting to have been here long enough to take a look at the team's form under him in comparison to what went before. So I thought I'd post up the numbers.

Obviously there's a bunch of different ways you can present stats and they're only part of the picture... I can honestly say I have no interest in trying to get a specific outcome with this. When Gomes was appointed there was a bunch of talk about how he could have little time to have an impact given we were in the festive slog, so I'm going to put his first two games under Marshall's caretaker stint to bring that up to 5, Gomes has had 5 games since then, and Clement did 20 which breaks down into 4 sets of 5, so there's a bit of symmetry.

Clement 1: W0, D2, L3, PPG 0.4, GD -3
Clement 2: W2, D1, L2, PPG 1.4, GD 2
Clement 3: W1, D0, L4, PPG 0.6, GD -5
Clement 4: W1, D3, L1, PPG 1.2, GD 0
Marshall *: W0, D2, L3, PPG 0.4, GD -4
Gomes___: W1, D2, L2, PPG 1.0, GD -2

Clement first 8______: W2, D2, L4, PPG 1.0, GD -9
Clement this season: W4, D6, L10, PPG 0.9, GD -6
Gomes Total________: W1, D3, L3, PPG 0.9, GD -3

So, without a doubt, Gomes has improved things on where we were when he started, but that's only because when Clement got sacked we completely fell to pieces worse than we'd been under Clement. Gomes is doing about as well as Clement was, which was heading pretty much straight for that knife edge of relegation around the 40 - 50 point mark.

At Denver's request I've included Clement's start last season as a comparison to Gomes, not quite the same number of games yet. Anything but a win next and it's a worse start for Gomes. Personally, I don't consider it very relevant as the circumstances are different and we're focused on this season, with Gomes brought in to improve on how Clement was doing at the end of his stint, not the beginning (although all of it was much of a muchness statswise).

For those of you who prefer six game form, I may well knock up something for that and update the Clement first 8 vs Gomes first 8 comparison after Wednesday.

So in summary, Gomes has steadied the ship from the horrendous disruption of Clement going, but that just holds us on course for possible / probable relegation. He needs to show a similar improvement to his current form to the one he showed to the Marshall caretaker period above if we want to have any confidence of staying up.

He seems nice, passionate and engaged. He's made some good moves to trim the squad and keep our options open with his signings. Got to deliver on the pitch though, because points wise it's not looking great.


The Footballs way better to watch though, and I can see a lot more fight on the pitch.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Feb 2019 22:40

With a bit of luck that will bring the results.

The bits I've caught have been slicker and more purposeful, but lacked success at either end.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Lower West » 02 Feb 2019 22:55

As the games tick by. Be interesting to see how the players cope with the pressure. At the momemt at least, there's plenty of games to go. When it gets to the point of having to win. Have the young trainees the mentality that's required.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Tails » 03 Feb 2019 00:32

Make no bones about it, we’re in a relegation fight. I would say at least there is some steadying of the ship, building of confidence and this platform to survive. With even more luck, we can do it in a fashion that allows for a much better platform for next season, rather than starting from square one again.


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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Hound » 03 Feb 2019 08:23

Snowflake Royal With a bit of luck that will bring the results.

The bits I've caught have been slicker and more purposeful, but lacked success at either end.


That was as good as I’ve seen us defensively for a while yesterday. Miazga looks a good signing and Moore was better

The lack of chance creation is the big worry for me. Gomes needs to solve that sooner rather than later

PPG etc considering, he has done ok, no more. The players look more comfortable on the ball and 80% of the stuff looks good. We look like we are capable of winning games

Will we stay up? I’m looking at that brutal run Rotherham have and hoping that’s where we make our gains. I think both Bolton and Ipswich are down

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Snowflake Royal » 03 Feb 2019 08:26

Hound
Snowflake Royal With a bit of luck that will bring the results.

The bits I've caught have been slicker and more purposeful, but lacked success at either end.


That was as good as I’ve seen us defensively for a while yesterday. Miazga looks a good signing and Moore was better

The lack of chance creation is the big worry for me. Gomes needs to solve that sooner rather than later

PPG etc considering, he has done ok, no more. The players look more comfortable on the ball and 80% of the stuff looks good. We look like we are capable of winning games

Will we stay up? I’m looking at that brutal run Rotherham have and hoping that’s where we make our gains. I think both Bolton and Ipswich are down

Sounds fair to me. I'd rather we weren't reliant on Rotherham, Ipswich and Bolton being worse, rather than us doing the job ourselves. That'd be two seasons in a row saved by the poorness of other teams... keep that up and it really is simply a matter of time.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Hound » 03 Feb 2019 09:18

Yes it’s shit but the reality

My big hope is we get some momentum before the end of the year. Believe stats show that massively affects how you start the following season.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Snowflake Royal » 03 Feb 2019 10:11

Hound Yes it’s shit but the reality

My big hope is we get some momentum before the end of the year. Believe stats show that massively affects how you start the following season.

If you've got a link to something showing that I'd be interested.

It's certainly my perception. I've been desperate for us to have a good last 5-10 games for ages but it just never seems to happen.


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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by leon » 03 Feb 2019 11:29

Hound
Snowflake Royal With a bit of luck that will bring the results.

The bits I've caught have been slicker and more purposeful, but lacked success at either end.


That was as good as I’ve seen us defensively for a while yesterday. Miazga looks a good signing and Moore was better

The lack of chance creation is the big worry for me. Gomes needs to solve that sooner rather than later

PPG etc considering, he has done ok, no more. The players look more comfortable on the ball and 80% of the stuff looks good. We look like we are capable of winning games

Will we stay up? I’m looking at that brutal run Rotherham have and hoping that’s where we make our gains. I think both Bolton and Ipswich are down


This entirely.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by sandman » 03 Feb 2019 11:58

Wins and losses don't matter to Reading fans.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by leon » 03 Feb 2019 12:32

sandman Wins and losses don't matter to Reading fans.


Not sure what you’re getting at here.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Mid Sussex Royal » 03 Feb 2019 13:08

You really can't at the moment compare Clement this season and Gomes using stats like this so its fairly meaningless. Lets see where we are at the end of March; by then we will have played a key set of games against rivals around us, and other winnable games.

Gomes started during an intense period of games with little opportunity to work much between games, and inherited a bloated squad, largely caused by Clement's dreadful summer signings. I wouldn't even given him credit for Yiadom as Stam was after him the previous summer.

The fact is he has signed, albeit on loan, better players than Clement did and significantly reduced the size of the squad whilst at the same time improving the entertainment value and maintaining roughly the same ppg represents a solid start in my opinion.
Last edited by Mid Sussex Royal on 03 Feb 2019 18:24, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by TiagoIlori » 03 Feb 2019 16:49

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Let’s look at our first 7 league games- 5 points
Gomes- 6 points

Clement vs sides played in comparison with Gomes: 4 points
Gomes: 6 points

Gomes played 6 of those games vs a top half side at the time with a team low on confidence who hadn’t won in 6 games and most of the games under Gomes were without all his signings. Clement had a squad who knew it was a fresh start this season and these were his signings. Gomes also has never managed in the UK, let alone second tier of English football. Most of our points under Clement seemed to come under a purple patch where we were hardly convincing, at least we can see what Gomes is trying to do.

For the love of god, please stop acting thick and get some perspective. Apart from the Swansea and perhaps the Derby game we felt unlucky not to win and that includes Man United who have really kicked on under their new manager.
Last edited by TiagoIlori on 03 Feb 2019 19:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Lower West » 03 Feb 2019 19:16

Mid Sussex Royal largely caused by Clement's dreadful summer signings.


Don't expect Reading to splash the cash this summer. Strip out the 5 loanees that played Saturday and we've little left. The project is a long term one. Long way off getting back to being a top 6 contender. Financial Fair Play is going to tie Readings hands. Investment in the academy is a clear sign of the future direction. Man City having made £335 million from theirs in the past 5 years. Chelsea some £155 million in the past 3 years.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by Snowflake Royal » 03 Feb 2019 21:44

TiagoIlori You are comparing apples and oranges.

Let’s look at our first 7 league games- 5 points
Gomes- 6 points

Clement vs sides played in comparison with Gomes: 4 points
Gomes: 6 points

Gomes played 6 of those games vs a top half side at the time with a team low on confidence who hadn’t won in 6 games and most of the games under Gomes were without all his signings. Clement had a squad who knew it was a fresh start this season and these were his signings. Gomes also has never managed in the UK, let alone second tier of English football. Most of our points under Clement seemed to come under a purple patch where we were hardly convincing, at least we can see what Gomes is trying to do.

For the love of god, please stop acting thick and get some perspective. Apart from the Swansea and perhaps the Derby game we felt unlucky not to win and that includes Man United who have really kicked on under their new manager.

I'm not trying to compare with Clement, it's about how we're doing under Gomes, which includes looking at what's gone before in the lead up to his arrival.

It's just a simple case of seeing how our form changes.

We had plenty of similar nearly results under Clement. Derby first game, Blackburn away etc and Stam at times for that matter, Fulham at home last season for example. Nearly doesn't get you points. All well and good if those nearlies become actualies but it's not happened yet. If it does, our results pick up and Gomes does exactly what I said is needed... he improves on this ok ish early form the same way he's improved on the caretaker phase.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by URZZZZ » 04 Feb 2019 00:31

TiagoIlori You are comparing apples and oranges.

Let’s look at our first 7 league games- 5 points
Gomes- 6 points

Clement vs sides played in comparison with Gomes: 4 points
Gomes: 6 points

Gomes played 6 of those games vs a top half side at the time with a team low on confidence who hadn’t won in 6 games and most of the games under Gomes were without all his signings. Clement had a squad who knew it was a fresh start this season and these were his signings. Gomes also has never managed in the UK, let alone second tier of English football. Most of our points under Clement seemed to come under a purple patch where we were hardly convincing, at least we can see what Gomes is trying to do.

For the love of god, please stop acting thick and get some perspective. Apart from the Swansea and perhaps the Derby game we felt unlucky not to win and that includes Man United who have really kicked on under their new manager.


Except Tuesday was a deserved result, we still wouldn't have scored now if we were playing from yesterday and even though we played well against QPR, they still had the better chances. Comparing Gomes' six games against the six games from Clement isn't a good indication either, look at how Bolton were flying at the start of the season to now

End of the day, Clement's six games at the start of his reign yielded more points than Gomes' did. These included Fulham, Cardiff and Villa away IIRC. People far too optimistic after a bunch of toothless attacking displays, we could very easily be 4 points off Rotherham this time next week considering our atrocious away record and Wigan's equally atrocious away record

But...we need to keep fighting, if there's one positive to take out of this, our defence is so much better, Blackett and Miazga were immense yesterday

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by TiagoIlori » 04 Feb 2019 06:11

Snowflake Royal
TiagoIlori You are comparing apples and oranges.

Let’s look at our first 7 league games- 5 points
Gomes- 6 points

Clement vs sides played in comparison with Gomes: 4 points
Gomes: 6 points

Gomes played 6 of those games vs a top half side at the time with a team low on confidence who hadn’t won in 6 games and most of the games under Gomes were without all his signings. Clement had a squad who knew it was a fresh start this season and these were his signings. Gomes also has never managed in the UK, let alone second tier of English football. Most of our points under Clement seemed to come under a purple patch where we were hardly convincing, at least we can see what Gomes is trying to do.

For the love of god, please stop acting thick and get some perspective. Apart from the Swansea and perhaps the Derby game we felt unlucky not to win and that includes Man United who have really kicked on under their new manager.

I'm not trying to compare with Clement, it's about how we're doing under Gomes, which includes looking at what's gone before in the lead up to his arrival.

It's just a simple case of seeing how our form changes.

We had plenty of similar nearly results under Clement. Derby first game, Blackburn away etc and Stam at times for that matter, Fulham at home last season for example. Nearly doesn't get you points. All well and good if those nearlies become actualies but it's not happened yet. If it does, our results pick up and Gomes does exactly what I said is needed... he improves on this ok ish early form the same way he's improved on the caretaker phase.


Gomes was brought in to improve results, and in my view he has improved results against the respective sides so it’s inevitable to compare him to Clement. The club was in a terrible state so we can’t just expect an immediate impact. We are playing much better than we were and the attack needs time to gel, that doesn’t happen overnight, it is clear what Gomes is trying to achieve. If performances are good which they are, then it’s clearly only a matter of time until it all starts to click. Joko didn’t start well at Fulham, neither did Wagner at Huddersfield.

If in April we’re still where we are then yes, the results are more important but for now, with a few tweaks to the system I don’t see why we can’t start wining games sooner rather than later.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by TiagoIlori » 04 Feb 2019 06:25

URZZZZ
TiagoIlori You are comparing apples and oranges.

Let’s look at our first 7 league games- 5 points
Gomes- 6 points

Clement vs sides played in comparison with Gomes: 4 points
Gomes: 6 points

Gomes played 6 of those games vs a top half side at the time with a team low on confidence who hadn’t won in 6 games and most of the games under Gomes were without all his signings. Clement had a squad who knew it was a fresh start this season and these were his signings. Gomes also has never managed in the UK, let alone second tier of English football. Most of our points under Clement seemed to come under a purple patch where we were hardly convincing, at least we can see what Gomes is trying to do.

For the love of god, please stop acting thick and get some perspective. Apart from the Swansea and perhaps the Derby game we felt unlucky not to win and that includes Man United who have really kicked on under their new manager.


Except Tuesday was a deserved result, we still wouldn't have scored now if we were playing from yesterday and even though we played well against QPR, they still had the better chances. Comparing Gomes' six games against the six games from Clement isn't a good indication either, look at how Bolton were flying at the start of the season to now

End of the day, Clement's six games at the start of his reign yielded more points than Gomes' did. These included Fulham, Cardiff and Villa away IIRC. People far too optimistic after a bunch of toothless attacking displays, we could very easily be 4 points off Rotherham this time next week considering our atrocious away record and Wigan's equally atrocious away record

But...we need to keep fighting, if there's one positive to take out of this, our defence is so much better, Blackett and Miazga were immense yesterday

this is a completely new system and the players are going to need time to adapt to it, especially for attackers it’s crucial that they are given time to gel. No team is going to start scoring tonnes of goals overnight, this needs time and if we seem to be winning the midfield and defensive battles which we weren’t then fans are allowed to be optimistic. I know this is apples and oranges again, but Thierry Henry didn’t score in his first 8 games and once he adapted to what Wenger plays he started banging them in, many attackers can be like that especially when ours are blatantly low on confidence which will only improve over time because they’re quite clearly capable players.

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Re: Gomes: Early Form Check In

by maffff » 04 Feb 2019 08:17

Need to remember that if Gregory hadn't bottled it for Millwall against Rotherham we'd be out the relegation zone already. Didn't matter though, we'll be out soon though, won't be back this season either.

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