Next Season's Squad.

716 posts
User avatar
Hendo
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3783
Joined: 25 Mar 2012 20:53

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Hendo » 14 May 2019 16:04


Zip
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3829
Joined: 30 Dec 2017 16:39

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Zip » 14 May 2019 17:21

Snowball
Oilroyal
Snowball Quote

Players too good /would be silly to move on
Chris Gunter - experienced and dependable back up - should not sell
Garath McCleary - experienced and dependable back up - should not sell

These would be at the top of my sell list, not because I don't like them but they are on very good wages and neither are "for the future"


Interesting how different we all see things.

Whether Gunts and Gmac stay or not, I marked them both as “experienced and dependable back-ups”. And personally, I think they do have role to play in the future of this club. Cannot understand why any fan would object to having these two involved in helping the youngsters come through as both have been loyal, and both are model professionals. Both could have a very important role in shaping the future of this club.



If money were no object, sure, but they will be relatively big earners, on too much to be mere back up.

The top eleven earners should be the first eleven, surely?


The first eleven is inter-changeable. Gunter was in the starting 11 for most of the final run in. Yiadom is a nailed on starter at full-back. Is Blackett? Not sure he is. Not much between him and Gunter.

URZZZZ
Member
Posts: 967
Joined: 20 Apr 2013 18:30

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by URZZZZ » 15 May 2019 00:20

Zip
Snowball
Oilroyal
Interesting how different we all see things.

Whether Gunts and Gmac stay or not, I marked them both as “experienced and dependable back-ups”. And personally, I think they do have role to play in the future of this club. Cannot understand why any fan would object to having these two involved in helping the youngsters come through as both have been loyal, and both are model professionals. Both could have a very important role in shaping the future of this club.



If money were no object, sure, but they will be relatively big earners, on too much to be mere back up.

The top eleven earners should be the first eleven, surely?


The first eleven is inter-changeable. Gunter was in the starting 11 for most of the final run in. Yiadom is a nailed on starter at full-back. Is Blackett? Not sure he is. Not much between him and Gunter.


Three good options, with Richards in there as well. Possibly Blackett against weaker teams (got a good cross on him) and Gunter against the stronger teams (probably slightly more reliably defensively) and then Richards whenever we can

Royalwaster
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3043
Joined: 13 Jul 2004 13:32

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Royalwaster » 15 May 2019 09:13

Yeah as long as the team can't cross from his side ... as Gunter seems incapable of blocking crosses.

User avatar
CountryRoyal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6436
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 13:44

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by CountryRoyal » 15 May 2019 12:01

Royalwaster Yeah as long as the team can't cross from his side ... as Gunter seems incapable of blocking crosses.


Boro away at the end of the season was absolutely peak Gunter. Was a positional horror show was miles away from where he needed to be almost all the time and every single attack pretty much came down his side. Shocking defender, I honestly have no clue how half the fan base don’t see it and if someone oxf*rd says “x managers can’t be wrong, Wales record cap holder” blah blah suck a dick. He’s shit, end of.


muirinho
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1406
Joined: 20 Jan 2016 12:10

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by muirinho » 15 May 2019 13:42

CountryRoyal
Royalwaster Yeah as long as the team can't cross from his side ... as Gunter seems incapable of blocking crosses.


Boro away at the end of the season was absolutely peak Gunter. Was a positional horror show was miles away from where he needed to be almost all the time and every single attack pretty much came down his side. Shocking defender, I honestly have no clue how half the fan base don’t see it and if someone oxf*rd says “x managers can’t be wrong, Wales record cap holder” blah blah suck a dick. He’s shit, end of.


amazing how he managed to get in 4 clearances (same as Yids) seeing he was always in the wrong place.... Could it be that you only noticed what he did wrong?

URZZZZ
Member
Posts: 967
Joined: 20 Apr 2013 18:30

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by URZZZZ » 15 May 2019 13:49

muirinho
CountryRoyal
Royalwaster Yeah as long as the team can't cross from his side ... as Gunter seems incapable of blocking crosses.


Boro away at the end of the season was absolutely peak Gunter. Was a positional horror show was miles away from where he needed to be almost all the time and every single attack pretty much came down his side. Shocking defender, I honestly have no clue how half the fan base don’t see it and if someone oxf*rd says “x managers can’t be wrong, Wales record cap holder” blah blah suck a dick. He’s shit, end of.


amazing how he managed to get in 4 clearances (same as Yids) seeing he was always in the wrong place.... Could it be that you only noticed what he did wrong?


I'm not particularly a Gunter fan or a Gunter knocker but he was abject in the first half that day. Backed off and off his man and both goals came down from his flank with not enough pressure on his man. Slightly better in the second half but it was generally a poor performance from Mr Gunter that day

Interesting you compared it to Yiadom that day considering he was poor that day as well

muirinho
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1406
Joined: 20 Jan 2016 12:10

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by muirinho » 15 May 2019 14:07

URZZZZ
muirinho
CountryRoyal
Boro away at the end of the season was absolutely peak Gunter. Was a positional horror show was miles away from where he needed to be almost all the time and every single attack pretty much came down his side. Shocking defender, I honestly have no clue how half the fan base don’t see it and if someone oxf*rd says “x managers can’t be wrong, Wales record cap holder” blah blah suck a dick. He’s shit, end of.


amazing how he managed to get in 4 clearances (same as Yids) seeing he was always in the wrong place.... Could it be that you only noticed what he did wrong?


I'm not particularly a Gunter fan or a Gunter knocker but he was abject in the first half that day. Backed off and off his man and both goals came down from his flank with not enough pressure on his man. Slightly better in the second half but it was generally a poor performance from Mr Gunter that day

Interesting you compared it to Yiadom that day considering he was poor that day as well


My point was he wasn't abjectly worse than Yiadom that game. It wasn't actually a good day for any of the team - pretty much the only bright spark was the Loader goal. But CR used that game to pick out Gunter to say he's useless, with no mention of anyone else. i.e., typical of having a blind-spot when it comes to a specific player. So, maybe the part of the fanbase (and yes, all of the managers) that "don't see it" are actually slightly more balanced in their views.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6642
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Snowflake Royal » 15 May 2019 14:09

Counting clearances is a fooking awful way of assessing how good someone is with positioning and cross stopping anyway.

The only things Gunter is better at than Blackett is fitness and concentration.


URZZZZ
Member
Posts: 967
Joined: 20 Apr 2013 18:30

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by URZZZZ » 18 May 2019 02:53

muirinho
URZZZZ
muirinho
amazing how he managed to get in 4 clearances (same as Yids) seeing he was always in the wrong place.... Could it be that you only noticed what he did wrong?


I'm not particularly a Gunter fan or a Gunter knocker but he was abject in the first half that day. Backed off and off his man and both goals came down from his flank with not enough pressure on his man. Slightly better in the second half but it was generally a poor performance from Mr Gunter that day

Interesting you compared it to Yiadom that day considering he was poor that day as well


My point was he wasn't abjectly worse than Yiadom that game. It wasn't actually a good day for any of the team - pretty much the only bright spark was the Loader goal. But CR used that game to pick out Gunter to say he's useless, with no mention of anyone else. i.e., typical of having a blind-spot when it comes to a specific player. So, maybe the part of the fanbase (and yes, all of the managers) that "don't see it" are actually slightly more balanced in their views.


He didn't start the argument about Gunter. He was replying to a comment someone else said, and used an example to illustrate his point. Therefore why would he feel the need to mention Yiadom as such? No big deal there

Naturally people have their views on players they like/dislike and generally have a fixed mindset towards that player. Therefore, for every five things they do right and one mistake, the mistake will counteract any previous good things they've already done. That's part and parcel of a scapegoat and part of modern football unfortunately!

URZZZZ
Member
Posts: 967
Joined: 20 Apr 2013 18:30

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by URZZZZ » 18 May 2019 03:01

Snowflake Royal Counting clearances is a fooking awful way of assessing how good someone is with positioning and cross stopping anyway.

Well, technically if you're there to make a clearance, you tend to be in the right position. Right? Wouldn't say it's a great stat but it's not "fooking awful" IMO. But then again, I find stats on individual players can be really non-conclusive as there's so many factors to take into account when looking at them

The only things Gunter is better at than Blackett is fitness and concentration.

Consistency
Better reader of the game
Scores more (although something like 2 goals to 0 in three seasons)
They could all be argued

Don't think Blackett and Gunter need a comparison. They're both useful players with strengths as well as flaws. Both can be used in different scenarios (hence Gunter >Blackett vs Brentford but Blackett >Gunter vs West Brom) etc...With Yiadom on one side, and these two rotating on the other, we have two capable fullbacks at all times. Of course it's all about opinions and Gunter frustrates the hell out of me sometimes with his negativity but he's still a useful player to have around the squad



User avatar
From Despair To Where?
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7901
Joined: 19 Apr 2004 08:37
Location: With grace we will suffer, with grace we shall recover

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by From Despair To Where? » 18 May 2019 08:48

I think the main gist of the argument is when we are having issues with FFP, should 2 of our higher paid players be retained because they are "experienced and dependable backups". I like Gunter and GMac but our top 6 or 7 earners should be key players when fit, not back ups.

It's not about being pro or anti the player, it's about the club having to make hard decisions about whether they still think they offer value for money and whether any other club is prepared to take them on. My hunch is Gunter may go but there will be no takers for GMac.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6642
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 May 2019 09:58

I think you're spot on.

I've been a fairly vocal critic of Gunter over the years. I think our reliance on him and his lack of competition has been symptomatic of our slip down the table and he just isn't right for a team that has its eyes on the top half, certainly the top six. And it's not because he's shit, but because of his approach to the game, which is very safe, cautious and often negative. Something that got worse the more we played a short passing game versus a more direct style. He's always been one to make the low immediate risk, low percentage play. Never really one to take responsibility to make something happen going forward and unlock some space.

Compare him to Murty, Shorey, Harte, Griffin, Obita, Blackett... they all had the capacity and desire to play that key ball forward, pick out someone with a precision cross or drop a shoulder and beat their man to break forward. Gunter has never really done that. He'll cross and sometimes its great, he'll sometimes run beyond and that's useful, but it's not the same thing.

But as a back up squad player, he is excellent. You know exactly what you'll get from him. He'll always be available, he has a great work ethic, he can keep up with the pace of the game. He will do a job you can rely on and keep things ticking over nicely in the short term until you're first choice is back, something that's invaluable in a back up player. The problem comes that given his history with us his contract, as you say, is going to be at the level of a first team regular and we can't afford to pay back up players first team regular wages.

McCleary is a slightly different prospect as he's experienced and committed enough to have added decent defensive work to his game as a winger. And he can still take players on and beat them, and he's pulled out some great assists in recent months. But he's lost that yard of pace that means he can get away from people and he seems to have lost his ability to finish as well (at least partly mental I think). On top of that, you're back up wingers are likely to play more than back up fullbacks as it's quite common to ask your main wingers to only play 70 minutes and to switch up your wide players regularly in the latter stages of games. Whereas a fullback will often sit out multiple games in a row on the bench.

I can see someone coming in and paying fairly decent money for Gunter (£500k+), he'd be a very good L1 player... agree not so sure we can expect the same for McCleary.


User avatar
From Despair To Where?
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7901
Joined: 19 Apr 2004 08:37
Location: With grace we will suffer, with grace we shall recover

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by From Despair To Where? » 18 May 2019 10:33

I can still see Gunter as a starter in the Championship in the right team. He's an established international, the right side of 30 (just) and has had a relatively injury free career. As you say, he's a safe player. Wouldn't surprise me if he went back to Cardiff.

McCleary is 32 and is coming off 18 months of injury that have robbed him of his explosiveness. I don't think another Championship club would take him and he's too expensive for league 1.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6642
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 May 2019 10:37

From Despair To Where? I can still see Gunter as a starter in the Championship in the right team. He's an established international, the right side of 30 (just) and has had a relatively injury free career. As you say, he's a safe player. Wouldn't surprise me if he went back to Cardiff.

McCleary is 32 and is coming off 18 months of injury that have robbed him of his explosiveness. I don't think another Championship club would take him and he's too expensive for league 1.

Can't see him being Warnock's sort of player. I could see him at a promoted club or a Brum / QPR / Wigan sort of team

Nameless
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5070
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 12:25

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Nameless » 18 May 2019 20:47

Snowflake Royal
From Despair To Where? I can still see Gunter as a starter in the Championship in the right team. He's an established international, the right side of 30 (just) and has had a relatively injury free career. As you say, he's a safe player. Wouldn't surprise me if he went back to Cardiff.

McCleary is 32 and is coming off 18 months of injury that have robbed him of his explosiveness. I don't think another Championship club would take him and he's too expensive for league 1.

Can't see him being Warnock's sort of player. I could see him at a promoted club or a Brum / QPR / Wigan sort of team


So a team quite like us then ?

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6642
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 May 2019 21:51

Nameless
Snowflake Royal
From Despair To Where? I can still see Gunter as a starter in the Championship in the right team. He's an established international, the right side of 30 (just) and has had a relatively injury free career. As you say, he's a safe player. Wouldn't surprise me if he went back to Cardiff.

McCleary is 32 and is coming off 18 months of injury that have robbed him of his explosiveness. I don't think another Championship club would take him and he's too expensive for league 1.

Can't see him being Warnock's sort of player. I could see him at a promoted club or a Brum / QPR / Wigan sort of team


So a team quite like us then ?

I have hopes we'll improve and we've already got better than Gunts in Yiadom, but as I said, as back up he's great and I'd keep him but for the wage issue.

User avatar
bcubed
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4188
Joined: 30 Oct 2004 18:16
Location: Would do better with a stick of rhubarb

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by bcubed » 19 May 2019 10:15

muirinho
URZZZZ
muirinho
amazing how he managed to get in 4 clearances (same as Yids) seeing he was always in the wrong place.... Could it be that you only noticed what he did wrong?


I'm not particularly a Gunter fan or a Gunter knocker but he was abject in the first half that day. Backed off and off his man and both goals came down from his flank with not enough pressure on his man. Slightly better in the second half but it was generally a poor performance from Mr Gunter that day

Interesting you compared it to Yiadom that day considering he was poor that day as well


My point was he wasn't abjectly worse than Yiadom that game. It wasn't actually a good day for any of the team - pretty much the only bright spark was the Loader goal. But CR used that game to pick out Gunter to say he's useless, with no mention of anyone else. i.e., typical of having a blind-spot when it comes to a specific player. So, maybe the part of the fanbase (and yes, all of the managers) that "don't see it" are actually slightly more balanced in their views.


+1

It's very easy to pick fault and see mistakes in a player you don't like. I could watch a game and focus on Yiadom's mistakes and I'd have plenty to see. We've got a squad of low table Championship players. They all make mistakes else they'd be playing at a higher level.

Anyway Gunter hating is so last season or the season before that. As DTW said the question is more about whether we hold on to him or GMac if they're high paid. If Jose doesn't see them as starters I agree they should be sold.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6642
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Snowflake Royal » 19 May 2019 12:10

If Obita can recover and refind his form I can't think of a time when we'd be better stocked at full back. Individual quality in first choice may not be up to our highest standards, but Yiadom and Obita with Gunter, Blackett, Richards, Watson and Howe is an overabundance of strength in depth worthy of a title winning side.

Way more than we need and an easy area to cut costs without harming performance if we can more a few on, especially for last fee and at the higher wage range.

muirinho
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1406
Joined: 20 Jan 2016 12:10

Re: Next Season's Squad.

by muirinho » 19 May 2019 16:36

Snowflake Royal If Obita can recover and refind his form I can't think of a time when we'd be better stocked at full back. Individual quality in first choice may not be up to our highest standards, but Yiadom and Obita with Gunter, Blackett, Richards, Watson and Howe is an overabundance of strength in depth worthy of a title winning side.

Way more than we need and an easy area to cut costs without harming performance if we can more a few on, especially for last fee and at the higher wage range.


I don't believe we need Gunter, and, on account of him not actually being sh*t, I think it would be straightforward to move him on. He's got the time for another 2-3 year contract elsewhere, so it's quite likely he's already looking for another club himself.

On the other side though, because the chances of Obita returning to anything like previous form are, at this stage, very slim, we need to hang on to Blackett.

So that leaves us with

Yiadom / Watson / Howe
and
Blackett / Richards

Send Howe out on loan?

716 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 19 guests

It is currently 16 Jun 2019 12:51