Nick Shorey joins Accademy as Scout

[Snowflake Royal]

Wait. Do people think Shorey wasnt one of the best LBs the championship has seen?

I get the argument of "players who have played at least once in the championship but are or were better than Shorey in their prime" might merit inclusion (like Cole who was clearly the best LB any league in England has ever seen) but DD isnt wrong is he? Shorey was a phenomenal player. Better than Bertrand and around the same level as Harte and Bridge.

This is based on ability right? Not silverware?

He's undoubtedly one of the best players I've seen at Reading. And a very good LB in general. But tier 2 has been running 70 years just post war. Football didn't begin in 2004 or the 90s. There have been a helluva of a lot of quality LBs in that time. Many who have been more successful than Shorey.

Right but take successful out. We are talking ability. Pure ability. I'm sure there are tens of LBS in that time who, in their day, were better than those around them to a comparable degree with modern football, but they were all on the pints half the time. Its impossible to compare them.

Its like Lev Yashin. Revolutionised the way GKS are seen and probably was a phenomenal, natural athlete but if you "magically transported" him to the modern game would he stack up against the best in the world? Probably not.

Well if it's about ability then any top PL LB who drops a level counts.

And if you don't like the word successful, I'm happy changing it to ability. The point stands. There are 70+ years of tier 2 post war, and 24 teams. That's a staggering number of LBs many of whom have been extremely good.

It's just daft levels of arrogance to state Shorey is undoubtedly one of the greatest ever.

[Hoop Blah]

Wait. Do people think Shorey wasnt one of the best LBs the championship has seen?

I get the argument of "players who have played at least once in the championship but are or were better than Shorey in their prime" might merit inclusion (like Cole who was clearly the best LB any league in England has ever seen) but DD isnt wrong is he? Shorey was a phenomenal player. Better than Bertrand and around the same level as Harte and Bridge.

This is based on ability right? Not silverware?

Its a daft argument to make either way to be honest (although I originally laughed at the notion that Shorey was one of the 5 best ever left backs in the league, assuming he mean't the league, not the Championship).

If you're only counting the time a player played in the Championship and how he performed during that time, then I think Shorey might struggle to get into the top 5.
He only played 2 seasons in the Championship, one of which he was good, but not even as good as George McCartney (in the eyes of his peers that is).

If you're taking it as the 5 best left backs who have, at any point in their career, played in the Championship, then I still think he's struggling a bit.

I'd say that, over the course of their careers for those mentioned already, I'd go:

Cole > Bridge > Harte > Bertrand > Shorey

Remember that Bertrand has had 6 solid seasons in the Premier League where he's challenged for England's left back spot and made 19 appearances, made the 2016 squad, earned a spot in a PFA team of the year and won the Champions League.

Shorey never really repeated the height of his form for us after 2006/07 and I doubt either Villa or West Brom fans talk anywhere near as highly of him as we do. He's probably still one of my favourite Reading players though!

[Hoop Blah]

Its like Lev Yashin. Revolutionised the way GKS are seen and probably was a phenomenal, natural athlete but if you "magically transported" him to the modern game would he stack up against the best in the world? Probably not.

That's not based on ability then is it, it's based on performance (just to be extra picky about it).

[NewCorkSeth]

Its like Lev Yashin. Revolutionised the way GKS are seen and probably was a phenomenal, natural athlete but if you "magically transported" him to the modern game would he stack up against the best in the world? Probably not.

That's not based on ability then is it, it's based on performance (just to be extra picky about it).

Is it not ability? Hes not going to have the same ability as the top keepers currently despite the fact he was once the best keeper in the world. I was trying to point towards the general scaling in ability that football has seen. A top LB 60 years ago is incredibly unlikely to be even a good LB now. The game has moved forward, fitness, strength, training, tactics and footballing "brains" have all evolved to the point where most clasically good players in their day back then wouldnt likely be professionals if they were playing today (obviously I mean, for arguments sake, if they were transported forward in time rather than if they had grown up in modern day)

[NewCorkSeth]

He's undoubtedly one of the best players I've seen at Reading. And a very good LB in general. But tier 2 has been running 70 years just post war. Football didn't begin in 2004 or the 90s. There have been a helluva of a lot of quality LBs in that time. Many who have been more successful than Shorey.

Right but take successful out. We are talking ability. Pure ability. I'm sure there are tens of LBS in that time who, in their day, were better than those around them to a comparable degree with modern football, but they were all on the pints half the time. Its impossible to compare them.

Its like Lev Yashin. Revolutionised the way GKS are seen and probably was a phenomenal, natural athlete but if you "magically transported" him to the modern game would he stack up against the best in the world? Probably not.

Well if it's about ability then any top PL LB who drops a level counts.

And if you don't like the word successful, I'm happy changing it to ability. The point stands. There are 70+ years of tier 2 post war, and 24 teams. That's a staggering number of LBs many of whom have been extremely good.

It's just daft levels of arrogance to state Shorey is undoubtedly one of the greatest ever.

yeah I said in my original post that I accept the argument for counting people like Cole. Hes played in the League and we are comparing players at their prime. He wins. Hands down.

I just think the vast majority of the players who have played LB at one point in the championship (or second division) in those 70+ years you mention were good for their time, not for our time. Not many of them would hold a candle to Shorey. I get that there are probably lots of players I have forgotten who maybe had a loan in the championship or whatever but the fact that we all seem to be agreeing on Cole, Bridge, Bertrand, Harte as top LBs and Shorey isnt very far behind some of them in terms of ability suggests he is amongst the cream of the crop.

[NewCorkSeth]

By the way does anyone know what an Academy Scouts job entails? Is it looking for new youth players or watching our own players who are out on loan?

[NewCorkSeth]

Denis Irwin. He jumps up to just below Cole.

[Hoop Blah]

Its like Lev Yashin. Revolutionised the way GKS are seen and probably was a phenomenal, natural athlete but if you "magically transported" him to the modern game would he stack up against the best in the world? Probably not.

That's not based on ability then is it, it's based on performance (just to be extra picky about it).

Is it not ability? Hes not going to have the same ability as the top keepers currently despite the fact he was once the best keeper in the world. I was trying to point towards the general scaling in ability that football has seen. A top LB 60 years ago is incredibly unlikely to be even a good LB now. The game has moved forward, fitness, strength, training, tactics and footballing "brains" have all evolved to the point where most clasically good players in their day back then wouldnt likely be professionals if they were playing today (obviously I mean, for arguments sake, if they were transported forward in time rather than if they had grown up in modern day)

If Yashin was alive today then he'll have been afforded all the other improvements in coaching and science that have helped the current crop turn their ability into performance. Likewise any other sporting comparison across eras, it's highly debatable either way I guess.

That's how I see it anyway.

[NewCorkSeth]

That's not based on ability then is it, it's based on performance (just to be extra picky about it).

Is it not ability? Hes not going to have the same ability as the top keepers currently despite the fact he was once the best keeper in the world. I was trying to point towards the general scaling in ability that football has seen. A top LB 60 years ago is incredibly unlikely to be even a good LB now. The game has moved forward, fitness, strength, training, tactics and footballing "brains" have all evolved to the point where most clasically good players in their day back then wouldnt likely be professionals if they were playing today (obviously I mean, for arguments sake, if they were transported forward in time rather than if they had grown up in modern day)

If Yashin was alive today then he'll have been afforded all the other improvements in coaching and science that have helped the current crop turn their ability into performance. Likewise any other sporting comparison across eras, it's highly debatable either way I guess.

That's how I see it anyway.

Hey. Re-read my last sentence. The one in brackets.

[Hoop Blah]

I just think the vast majority of the players who have played LB at one point in the championship (or second division) in those 70+ years you mention were good for their time, not for our time. Not many of them would hold a candle to Shorey. I get that there are probably lots of players I have forgotten who maybe had a loan in the championship or whatever but the fact that we all seem to be agreeing on Cole, Bridge, Bertrand, Harte as top LBs and Shorey isnt very far behind some of them in terms of ability suggests he is amongst the cream of the crop.

Well, I'd throw in Kenny Sansom, Stuart Pearce and Nigel Winterburn as slightly older options if we're going down that route.

[Tilehurstsouthbank]

Shorey tampered his reputation by the situation in which he left us and then his half-arsed performances at the end of the Prem season. I think it leaves a bitter taste in people. For what it's worth, I disagree with DD that "anyone in his position would have his head turned". Because that's just not true is it

Not many people would argue he's one of the best Championship LB's. He had a lot of attributes in his locker and was a joy to watch with Convey in front. Where I said DD was talking rubbish was where he went off in a complete tangent (and ridiculous insults)

Out of interest, are you comparing Bertrand, Shorey, Harte and Bridge in their prime? Or at their time with us. Because I don't think Shorey touched Harte or Bridge in their prime whereas I thought Shorey was much better than Harte in his time here

Prime! You really think Shorey and Harte were miles apart at their respective peaks? Harte obviously had his incredible dead ball ability which does make him seem a lot better than he was. (Not in a negative way he was a good footballer by any standard). Bridge was slightly better but not by much.

But Bertrand vs Shorey? That's Shorey surely.

Harte > Bridge > Shorey+Bertrand is how I'd put it

Shorey and Bertrand both played for similar sized clubs, both got similar levels of international caps (I think) and are both good footballers but just not enough to take them to the top

Not miles apart but I'd say Harte was quite a bit better

Get the f out of here. No way Harte in his prime was better than Bridge in his prime.!

[The Enfield Royal71]

This is getting all too out of hand now.

I should clarify for the sake of the argument:

A) best left backs in the Championship whom are judged on their form/ability/output in that league only

B) all left backs in the Championship and the Auld Divison 2

C) all left backs who have played in the Championship and Auld Division 2 regardless if they were in their prime before or after.

[Tilehurstsouthbank]

This is getting all too out of hand now.

I should clarify for the sake of the argument:

A) best left backs in the Championship whom are judged on their form/ability/output in that league only

B) all left backs in the Championship and the Auld Divison 2

C) all left backs who have played in the Championship and Auld Division 2 regardless if they were in their prime before or after.

That's you clarifying?

[The Enfield Royal71]

This is getting all too out of hand now.

I should clarify for the sake of the argument:

A) best left backs in the Championship whom are judged on their form/ability/output in that league only

B) all left backs in the Championship and the Auld Divison 2

C) all left backs who have played in the Championship and Auld Division 2 regardless if they were in their prime before or after.

That's you clarifying?

Its pretty simple m9.

[SCIAG]

When Shorey was at his peak I argued that his delivery made him a better player than Bridge.

Then a past-it Bridge played for us and clearly had something that Shorey never did.

Harte was a more extreme version of Shorey. Better set piece taker but worse at everything else.

Bertrand hasn't quite matched Shorey's peak, but he's sustained a high level of performance for longer. 19 England caps to Shorey's 2. Obviously he didn't have to compete with Ashley Cole for his whole career the way that Shorey did, but he did have to compete with Baines, Rose, Shaw, Gibbs, etc.

Worth pointing out there have been lots of great left backs who haven't played for Reading...

[Dr_Hfuhruhurr]

I don't think that it's unreasonable for someone to criticise Shorey's conduct/performances in 07/08 - I seem to remember Brian McDermott referring to it in an interview when Shorey returned in 2012. I've no issue with a player wanting to move on - plenty of Reading players have been in that position - but I think Shorey's levels dropped below what they should have been that season and he ended up getting dropped in the run-in if I remember correctly after that dismal Fulham game.

Yeah, this.
I booed him at that corner in front of the North Stand in a game where not only was he shockingly bad, but he just couldnt be bothered and he had been going like that for quite a few games by then. Given how narrowly we went down that season, absolutely was he a large part responsbile - you cant just compete at the bottom of the premiership carrying a man who cant wait to kick the ball into touch every time he gets it. It was absolutely shameless. I rolled my eyes when he came back for the second time (Not McDermott's greatest moment) and Ill roll my eyes again here. At least we dont have to play him this time around.

[Denver Royal]

Understand and agree with some of the criticism as a player. And, he was criticized for it years ago accordingly.
'Left a bad taste'? Okay, but if he 'left a good taste' would that necessarily make him a better scout?
Apparently the club have moved on from having any beef with him (if they had any), and see it as a non-issue today.
Paul Clement didn't even play pro footy. Did it affect him as coach or manager? Some scouts weren't great players. Some weren't as good as Shorey. Some didn't even play much footy period, because of injuries or whatever else.

[Snowflake Royal]

Understand and agree with some of the criticism as a player. And, he was criticized for it years ago accordingly.
'Left a bad taste'? Okay, but if he 'left a good taste' would that necessarily make him a better scout?
Apparently the club have moved on from having any beef with him (if they had any), and see it as a non-issue today.
Paul Clement didn't even play pro footy. Did it affect him as coach or manager? Some scouts weren't great players. Some weren't as good as Shorey. Some didn't even play much footy period, because of injuries or whatever else.

The point was solely about a claim he's a good character which would be a positive in the role.

I'd say 'the right sort' is an important factor no matter your position at the club.

[The Enfield Royal71]

Understand and agree with some of the criticism as a player. And, he was criticized for it years ago accordingly.
'Left a bad taste'? Okay, but if he 'left a good taste' would that necessarily make him a better scout?
Apparently the club have moved on from having any beef with him (if they had any), and see it as a non-issue today.
Paul Clement didn't even play pro footy. Did it affect him as coach or manager? Some scouts weren't great players. Some weren't as good as Shorey. Some didn't even play much footy period, because of injuries or whatever else.

The point was solely about a claim he's a good character which would be a positive in the role.

I'd say 'the right sort' is an important factor no matter your position at the club.

Didn't work out so well for Joey Barton.

I would rather Shorey be here even if he left like that, then a Barton or Nile Ranger who are just disruptive and negative all round.

[The Enfield Royal71]

Im glad we have all agreed on Shorey being one of the top 5 best ever Championship left backs.