Will we get found out again?

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4691
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 18:36
Location: (Hopefully a) UNITED Kingdom

Re: Will we get found out again?

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 19 Aug 2019 11:20

Nameless Odd to worry about us not having a Plan B when we've already used at least 3 formations and used different players to do different roles.


That's exactly why I'm concerned; those other formations/roles lead to 2 defeats and a draw in 90mins with a lower league side. So if by plan B we mean systems that lead to defeat then do we worry?

Ranty McRantface
Member
Posts: 158
Joined: 08 Jan 2018 12:30

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Ranty McRantface » 19 Aug 2019 11:32

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Nameless Odd to worry about us not having a Plan B when we've already used at least 3 formations and used different players to do different roles.


That's exactly why I'm concerned; those other formations/roles lead to 2 defeats and a draw in 90mins with a lower league side. So if by plan B we mean systems that lead to defeat then do we worry?


I think you're forgetting in those 2 defeats we didn't have all the players we have now. Particularly a good goalkeeper. Those defeats could have been avoided had it not been for individual errors. That had nothing to do with tactics. The draw in a cup game. Meh. We still won.

Hound
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11042
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 22:16
Location: Simpleton

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 11:51

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Nameless Odd to worry about us not having a Plan B when we've already used at least 3 formations and used different players to do different roles.


That's exactly why I'm concerned; those other formations/roles lead to 2 defeats and a draw in 90mins with a lower league side. So if by plan B we mean systems that lead to defeat then do we worry?


Sheff Weds is barely worth mentioning considering how different we are now

Sounds like we actually did ok at Hull after a dreadful start and were close to nicking a point against a half decent side (or a side with a couple of very good players)

User avatar
Denver Royal
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 1890
Joined: 02 Jun 2004 10:58
Location: Between Emmer Green duck pond and The White Horse

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Denver Royal » 19 Aug 2019 13:05

Ranty McRantface I don't buy that one formation or particular style is wrong at all. If that were the case no manager would adopt it. Every formation or style has a weakness and strength. It is the manager's job to assess which style and formation will win with the players available. That brings me onto my next point.

There will undoubtedly be attempts from other managers trying to stop us playing 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 as we are capable of executing it to a devasting affect. Gomes, and I would hope most professional managers, would know to either tweak their existing formation or change it before or during the game. We are capable of interchanging players, formations and tactics within the formation. The formation is not just rigid either. The better teams and managers tend to play a different formation for defending and attacking. If you take a cup game like Citeh vs Rochdale (hypothetical) City may line up 4-3-3 but when they attack they would want to dominate and overload so in the attacking half you have more of a 2-5-3. Against better teams it might be more rigid. You get the idea.

So am I worried. No. And I don't think anyone should be. This is how football works. You just need to hope the manager can execute formations, tactical plays and different formations when attacking or defending in a way that will beat the oppo.

+1

Teams adapting to one another is an on-going, game to game, week to week process in football. We lined up and played a certain way yesterday to adapt to Cardiff. You scout them, and they scout you. That's what you plan for in the film rooms, meetings and practices, and you then come up with a game plan.
Ever since he got here, Gomes has often talked about the opposition, pre and post game, what he expected, how we tried to exploit it, and play and adjust accordingly, etc.
The better the players we (now) have, the easier it is to make adjustments because they are better able to take it on board and execute.
Somebody in here has been making a point, and it's a good one, that Gomes needs to adapt game plans to win away games in the Champ. Think we need to win a few games 1-0, esp away. We don't do that, and haven't in a while. It's great to win games like we did yesterday, but we need to eek out more wins when not at our best.
Last edited by Denver Royal on 19 Aug 2019 13:25, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8792
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Snowflake Royal » 19 Aug 2019 13:25

Hound playing 3 at the back does allow you to morph into 3-5-2 or a close variant of it. Even 3-3-4 if we wanted to push Yiadom and Richards (who are both capable of playing as full on wingers) if we needed to

I've always quite liked it as a formation and seems to suit the current line up. Its not great news for those who didn't play yesterday mind you - Rino, Barrett, Baldock, Loader for example aren't a great fit in the starting lineup. You could potentially put Rino in for Pele for a more attacking option though.

I'd thought for a few seasons we'd be worth trying 3 CBs, but given up on the idea.

It was the switching from wide forwards and one striker to two upfront that seemed unlikely... as long as we had Barrow that didn't make a lot of sense... now though!

I think you could easily swap Rino and Pele, or if you want to be a bit more solid - say away from home - you can swap one of Swift or Ejaria for Rino.

Joao / Meite / Nova
Puscas / Baldock / Loader

Is a hell of a depth of options upfront.


Hound
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11042
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 22:16
Location: Simpleton

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 13:45

Denver Royal Somebody in here has been making a point, and it's a good one, that Gomes needs to adapt game plans to win away games in the Champ. Think we need to win a few games 1-0, esp away. We don't do that, and haven't in a while. It's great to win games like we did yesterday, but we need to eek out more wins when not at our best.


Agreed

We've generally been good at home under Gomes and found ways to win, and to score goals.

Managed to pull of a few draws away, and the vital win at Ipswich, but not much else. I think we start games a little too open, and end up constantly chasing games. Be interesting to see what happens at WBA

URZZZZ
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1583
Joined: 20 Apr 2013 18:30

Re: Will we get found out again?

by URZZZZ » 19 Aug 2019 14:48

Haven’t won an away game with a clean sheet for 22 months now

Hound
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11042
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 22:16
Location: Simpleton

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 15:02

URZZZZ Haven’t won an away game with a clean sheet for 22 months now


Leeds?

URZZZZ
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1583
Joined: 20 Apr 2013 18:30

Re: Will we get found out again?

by URZZZZ » 19 Aug 2019 15:11

Hound
URZZZZ Haven’t won an away game with a clean sheet for 22 months now


Leeds?


Yeah, 14th October 2017. Even then, we saved a 90th minute penalty


Nameless
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5484
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 12:25

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Nameless » 19 Aug 2019 15:14

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Nameless Odd to worry about us not having a Plan B when we've already used at least 3 formations and used different players to do different roles.


That's exactly why I'm concerned; those other formations/roles lead to 2 defeats and a draw in 90mins with a lower league side. So if by plan B we mean systems that lead to defeat then do we worry?


We won one of the games where we used 2 different systems during the same game.
Gomes has clearly been experimenting with lots of different options. He'll ditch some, tweak others but surely the fact that he is even doing it just blows your concerns out of the water.
He's got a bunch of new players to adopt a new system in about 10 days, I suspect he'll be able to bed in a couple of other ways of approaching games.

Forbury Lion
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 6559
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 08:37
Location: https://urlzs.com/ZVLjH

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Forbury Lion » 19 Aug 2019 16:27

At the start of the season it looked as though we had a weaker team that the one we finished with due to the loan signings returning and the self imposed embago etc affecting new signings.
(when this was put to him by Tim Dellor, the open and honest Jose Gomes understandably didn't put his current side down and said that both teams were stronger/weaker in different areas and suggested maybe a draw if they played each other).

Now, I believe we may have a stronger team than the end of last season 8)

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: Will we get found out again?

by NewCorkSeth » 19 Aug 2019 16:29

Forbury Lion At the start of the season it looked as though we had a weaker team that the one we finished with due to the loan signings returning and the self imposed embago etc affecting new signings.
(when this was put to him by Tim Dellor, the open and honest Jose Gomes understandably didn't put his current side down and said that both teams were stronger/weaker in different areas and suggested maybe a draw if they played each other).

Now, I believe we may have a stronger team than the end of last season 8)

Bout the same for me. Martinez and Baker would improve us.

Victor Meldrew
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6261
Joined: 12 Apr 2005 19:22
Location: South Coast

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Victor Meldrew » 19 Aug 2019 17:30

I shouldn't worry too much about what system we play.
Yesterday we won not because of the system but because the players were so flexible and efficient in their movement with interchanging going on all over the park.
At one stage we had Miazga doing a Sheff Utd (centre-back attacking wide right) when Yiadom was in the centre-forward position, a touch of the Dutch total football.

Liverpool and City aren't so good because of the system that they play and Barcelona have been successful just playing the same way and scoring more goals than the opposition.
It is about players having footballing brains and it does look as though this new crop are better educated than what we have had for some time when so many have been one-dimentional.


User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8792
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Snowflake Royal » 19 Aug 2019 17:42

It's not very consistently applicable though. We tried to play very fluid against Wednesday and were poor.

At this level, it's rare to have players capable of making a fluid system work on a regular basis.

Hound
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11042
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 22:16
Location: Simpleton

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 17:58

NewCorkSeth
Forbury Lion At the start of the season it looked as though we had a weaker team that the one we finished with due to the loan signings returning and the self imposed embago etc affecting new signings.
(when this was put to him by Tim Dellor, the open and honest Jose Gomes understandably didn't put his current side down and said that both teams were stronger/weaker in different areas and suggested maybe a draw if they played each other).

Now, I believe we may have a stronger team than the end of last season 8)

Bout the same for me. Martinez and Baker would improve us.


I think we’re considerably better, or at least should be

Martinez is as good as you’ll get at this level, and not seen much of Rafael so would have Emi

Baker was a fantastic player but you could see how much Pele freed up the other 2 yesterday. Baker was too similar to Ejaria and Swift to make them all effective

Other than that we look a lot better up front and obvs a lot more depth

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: Will we get found out again?

by NewCorkSeth » 19 Aug 2019 18:05

Hound
NewCorkSeth
Forbury Lion At the start of the season it looked as though we had a weaker team that the one we finished with due to the loan signings returning and the self imposed embago etc affecting new signings.
(when this was put to him by Tim Dellor, the open and honest Jose Gomes understandably didn't put his current side down and said that both teams were stronger/weaker in different areas and suggested maybe a draw if they played each other).

Now, I believe we may have a stronger team than the end of last season 8)

Bout the same for me. Martinez and Baker would improve us.


I think we’re considerably better, or at least should be

Martinez is as good as you’ll get at this level, and not seen much of Rafael so would have Emi

Baker was a fantastic player but you could see how much Pele freed up the other 2 yesterday. Baker was too similar to Ejaria and Swift to make them all effective

Other than that we look a lot better up front and obvs a lot more depth

Ah cmon now. Baker played DM for us superbly last season. He was an all tackling, ever present leader with a great range of passing. Pele will have to do a lot this season to come close to the impression Baker left on me.

The exact same tactic would probably work better with Baker as the water carrier. But Pele does seem to be a decent "classic" DM. It's not like we particularly need him to be creative.

I think
-----------------Martinez
Yiadom--Moore---Miazga--Blackett
-------------------Baker
----------------Rino---Swift
Meite-------------------------------Barrow
------------------Oliveira

VS.

---------------Joao---Puşcaş
---------------Swift---Ejaria
Richards--------Pele------------Yiadom
-----Moore--Morrison--Miazga
-------------------Rafael

Would be a draw. We just have a better bench this year.

WestYorksRoyal
Member
Posts: 508
Joined: 15 Apr 2019 19:16

Re: Will we get found out again?

by WestYorksRoyal » 19 Aug 2019 18:14

NewCorkSeth
Hound
NewCorkSeth Bout the same for me. Martinez and Baker would improve us.


I think we’re considerably better, or at least should be

Martinez is as good as you’ll get at this level, and not seen much of Rafael so would have Emi

Baker was a fantastic player but you could see how much Pele freed up the other 2 yesterday. Baker was too similar to Ejaria and Swift to make them all effective

Other than that we look a lot better up front and obvs a lot more depth

Ah cmon now. Baker played DM for us superbly last season. He was an all tackling, ever present leader with a great range of passing. Pele will have to do a lot this season to come close to the impression Baker left on me.

The exact same tactic would probably work better with Baker as the water carrier. But Pele does seem to be a decent "classic" DM. It's not like we particularly need him to be creative.

I think
-----------------Martinez
Yiadom--Moore---Miazga--Blackett
-------------------Baker
----------------Rino---Swift
Meite-------------------------------Barrow
------------------Oliveira

VS.

---------------Joao---Puşcaş
---------------Swift---Ejaria
Richards--------Pele------------Yiadom
-----Moore--Morrison--Miazga
-------------------Rafael

Would be a draw. We just have a better bench this year.

This team has much better attacking options than last season's. Puscas and Joao are very exciting options. Barrow was inconsistent and Meite is ultimately a limited player who maximised his ability at a critical time last season. I feel bad for him to suddenly be behind Joao, Puscas and possibly Boye given how important he was to us last year, but you have to be ruthless to push on sometimes. I haven't spoken about Oliveira much, but he actually struggled quite a lot after his hamstring injury. Puscas already has as many league goals from open play as Oliveira got. 8)

Agreed 100% on depth; we can handle a few injuries and suspensions. Hopefully we avoid the obligatory 3 month injury crisis this year.

Hound
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11042
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 22:16
Location: Simpleton

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 18:15

Loved Baker, but we didn’t really dominate games last year anywhere near the way we did on Sunday

Put that down to the system working better and Ovie and Swift having more freedom. I don’t think Baker is a DM at all (and I believe his defensive stats were actually very poor). If he’d had Pele (or a fit Ezatolohi) behind him I think we’d have been better

Baker >> Pele but Pele, Swift, Ejaria >> Baker, Swift, Ejaria imo

Joao and Puscas just look better than NO on first viewing

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: Will we get found out again?

by NewCorkSeth » 19 Aug 2019 18:18

Joao is about the same for me. Similar players. Both come deep to shuttle the ball up the pitch, both are good in the air, both can hold a defender off with ease. Let's wait and see before removing the blocks from under the scales for those 2.

Puşcaş is different. And probably better.

User avatar
Denver Royal
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 1890
Joined: 02 Jun 2004 10:58
Location: Between Emmer Green duck pond and The White Horse

Re: Will we get found out again?

by Denver Royal » 19 Aug 2019 18:18

Baker progressed well, but he took a while to bed in, and some were less than impressed early doors.
Pele has prolly started much the faster of the two.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 57 guests

It is currently 14 Oct 2019 05:46