GOMES OUT!

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krapmle
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Re: GOMES OUT!

by krapmle » 08 Oct 2019 10:23

2 world wars, 1 world cup I'm on the fence about Gomes, but just so we are under no illusions if we sack him the following is *likely* to happen going by past experience (BMcD excepted as he was from within the club/knew it well).

Billy Big Bollox will come in, maybe have a honeymoon game or two, followed by same old shit performances. Initial fan optimism will fade but we'll still be optimistic becuase "it's early days yet". He'll then start disrupting things, make changes to philosophy, formation and we'll be shit. Fans will argue it takes time to instill a new system, which is fair. He'll then start to re-evaluate the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Baldock, Loader even Virginia, Adam etc.. Some will say that's what we were missing, but it will soon become evident they were kept out of the first team for a reason. We're now into January with shit performances, no idea what our best starting line up is, fans arguiing over how and who we should be playing and inevitable calls to back the new man to bring in new faces in January. We make such signings, which will further disrupt the team. We will have spirited performances here and there but nothing will be convincing and the whole time fans will be saying it takes time for the new manager to get to know his players and for them to learn the new system. The season fizzles out with us having beaten relegation but still generally a shit season.

All summer fans left on here will be arguing as to whether we did the right thing not giving Gomes a longer time as we gained nothing brinign in the new man. Some will say there are signs of significant improvement, some will say he's no better than what we had with Gomes. We may then see another splash of cash ( if we can) as more new players join and we end up with a mediocre first few games of the season again.

I'd love the above to be wrong, and we get some genius who can instantly see our issues, stop the zonal marking and playing it out from the back crap and get us winning games and shooting up the league like Brian did. I just don't see that as being very likely.


but the flip side of that is:

allow this to continue. 8 points from 11 games is relegation form
we get relegated, owners give up, club goes into administration and we have a new Bury.

can't sit on the fence with this. Its a decision for men not boys

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Hound » 08 Oct 2019 10:25

2 world wars, 1 world cup I'm on the fence about Gomes, but just so we are under no illusions if we sack him the following is *likely* to happen going by past experience (BMcD excepted as he was from within the club/knew it well).

Billy Big Bollox will come in, maybe have a honeymoon game or two, followed by same old shit performances. Initial fan optimism will fade but we'll still be optimistic becuase "it's early days yet". He'll then start disrupting things, make changes to philosophy, formation and we'll be shit. Fans will argue it takes time to instill a new system, which is fair. He'll then start to re-evaluate the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Baldock, Loader even Virginia, Adam etc.. Some will say that's what we were missing, but it will soon become evident they were kept out of the first team for a reason. We're now into January with shit performances, no idea what our best starting line up is, fans arguiing over how and who we should be playing and inevitable calls to back the new man to bring in new faces in January. We make such signings, which will further disrupt the team. We will have spirited performances here and there but nothing will be convincing and the whole time fans will be saying it takes time for the new manager to get to know his players and for them to learn the new system. The season fizzles out with us having beaten relegation but still generally a shit season.

All summer fans left on here will be arguing as to whether we did the right thing not giving Gomes a longer time as we gained nothing brinign in the new man. Some will say there are signs of significant improvement, some will say he's no better than what we had with Gomes. We may then see another splash of cash ( if we can) as more new players join and we end up with a mediocre first few games of the season again.

I'd love the above to be wrong, and we get some genius who can instantly see our issues, stop the zonal marking and playing it out from the back crap and get us winning games and shooting up the league like Brian did. I just don't see that as being very likely.


Of course there's a fair chance of that happening.

Its up to the board isnt it really? If they think the signings they authorised should have made the team significantly better, and having first hand experience of seeing Gomes work - and they believe he isnt up to it, then they'll make their move.

I do think its likely they'll be looking at seeing their 2 big name signings either floundering in the first 11 or getting 5 mins at the end off the bench, and I suspect they'd be far from happy. 13m quid is a lot more than whatever it would take to gamble on sacking Gomes. Do they think the issue is with the players they have splashed out on, or on the Manager?

I'm not sure who even makes the decisions on the manager. Is it Howe? I'm not sure Gomes was ever Howe's choice, and I do suspect its quite likely he'd go back to a more experienced 'manager' rather than 'coach' if he gets his way
Last edited by Hound on 08 Oct 2019 10:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by URZZZZ » 08 Oct 2019 10:25

Old Man Andrews
Zip
Top Flight My opinion on this is that without speaking to Gomes, I would not be sure if Gomes should be sacked or not.

These crunch talks between Gomes and the club are crucial. I think the squad has weakened since the end of last season despite some impressive looking signings. The balance of the side has been disturbed and we are struggling to penetrate teams and create very good opportunities for the front boys.

The question is whether this is Gomes fault or whether it is because of factors outside of his control. And the next question is whether Gomes understands how to take the team forward again. Whether he knows what players he needs to bring the balance and threat back to our game. Or if we are toothless because Gomes has made us toothless and this is his philosophy and how he wants us to play.

We miss Barrow's pace and speed on the counter attack. He is also a winger that can beat full backs and provide service to the front strikers. I think Puscas will come good. He just needs a little bit more help from his team mates to create those guilt edged chances that he can thrive on.

So the loss of Barrow is one reason for our struggles this season. But this was probably outside of Gomes control and probably Gomes would have him in the side if he could.

Another issue is the freezing out of McCleary and Gunter. This might be controversial but Gunter is a very decent wing back if we are playing a 3-5-2 wing back style system. He excelled for Wales in that role and we know Gunter can deliver quality into the box. At the very least Gunter should be involved in first team affairs to provide much needed depth and be another option.

We are struggling to create and be effective in wide areas. So again it beggars belief that a player of McCleary's quality can be frozen out. We are paying for him so we should be using him. Baldock should be involved more as well. These are probably outside of Gomes control. But if Gomes is deliberately choosing to overlook these players then his leadership is on shaky grounds as results are not backing up these decisions.

I like Gomes. I don't like seeing managers get sacked. I am always in favour of sticking with managers. But I hate watching my team play in such an un-intelligent fashion. We are not clever on the pitch. We are not streetwise. We don't use the ball intelligently. We do not attack intelligently in ways that are effective. We don't put balls in dangerous areas often enough. We don't take enough risks when we attack. We always cut back, cut inside and try and retain possession rather than try to thread the needle and put the ball into dangerous areas for Meite, Joao or Puscas to attack. Much of that comes from the coaching.

Whatever the owners decide from their deliberations with Gomes. I support the decision.



Also agree about Gunter and GMac. Not just in that they are not involved in the squad but I do think they have been treated poorly. They


Jesus Zip, you're not having a very good thread are you?


He’s not wrong about being treated poorly though. These are two players that have achieved far more than Gomes and to just banish them away from the squad is wrong

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Old Man Andrews » 08 Oct 2019 10:27

URZZZZ
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Zip

Also agree about Gunter and GMac. Not just in that they are not involved in the squad but I do think they have been treated poorly. They


Jesus Zip, you're not having a very good thread are you?


He’s not wrong about being treated poorly though. These are two players that have achieved far more than Gomes and to just banish them away from the squad is wrong

No it isn't. They had all summer to find new clubs but instead have chosen to sit on their backsides draining the club dry. Gomes was left with no option but to exile them, they shouldn't be here.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by royal_rumble » 08 Oct 2019 10:31

Gomes should be given a bit longer. Especially as you can imagine he probably doesn't have a hand in the signings, mostly higher ups and our resident super agent Kia.

LOL @ the McCleary and Gunts love in. Both did next to nothing last year, and I'll never forgive Gunter for the way he just gave up in that last game against Ipswich in '18.

Both are symptomatic of the rot that is still evident in this squad and around Reading FC. If they were that good they would have had someone come in for them. If they cared that much about their careers they would have worked harder to get a move. Says it all really.


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Re: GOMES OUT!

by URZZZZ » 08 Oct 2019 10:31

Zip
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Zip
So he is being judged on his last six games then because prior to that he successfully kept us up and prior to that his record was deemed good enough for us to appoint him.


No, that's nonsense. He's being judged after a quarter of the season. We have 8 points FFS. Seem to be conveniently forgetting Wednesday and Hull to suit your own agenda too

If you generally think that 36 points in 34 league games is a decent record with the number of signings he's made, then your head must be buried in the sand. He's made 14 signings in 9 months. It's no-where good enough. We don't expect instant success (well, some may) but we want to see players and managers learning from mistakes and impacting upon that. He's reverting back to his first few games with high fullbacks and no midfield cover, with a toothless attack. How is that learning from mistakes?


I haven’t conveniently forgotten the first two games. The big signings did not all start until the Cardiff game. Everyone was fine and dandy after we beat Huddersfield so it’s on the last six games that he is being hammered.

Oh and you are one of those “bleating”on about Clement who was given until nearly halfway through the season to turn things around.


Actually even in the Huddersfield thread, people were saying we were poor and that we needed to improve if we had any aspirations of a decent finish this season. And in the Hull game, Pele started, Boye started, Joao started, Puscas played a half so even in that game, most of his signings featured

And the reason I “bleated” on about Clement being given more time is that we were progressing. We started badly, we picked it up. He was learning from his mistakes of being too open at the back, so he changed formation to make us more solid. He realised certain players weren’t up to it and dropped them accordingly. He stopped putting Kelly and Swift in the same midfield 3 which was clearly too lightweight. I’d be happy for Gomes to stay if he actually changed things around and didn’t keep doing the exact same thing each game. But personally, I don’t think he will

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Zip » 08 Oct 2019 10:34

Old Man Andrews Our last 6 games have been horrendous. Why is it a manager cannot be judged on that? Zip is so blinkered on the Gomes issue, its worrying.



It’s called having an opinion my darling. I have been very critical of our appalling style of play and formation but feel he should be given time to sort it out rather than going through yet another sacking, paying compensation, hiring a new manager who will want to bring in different players etc etc. At some stage we have to give the manager of the day time to turn it around.

This endless cycle of hiring and sacking is leading us nowhere.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Top Flight » 08 Oct 2019 10:35

Clement was very unlucky with injuries as well.

Ezatolahi looked like he would be an immense presence in our midfield. I'd rather Gomes kept him than go for Pele who doesn't look half as good.

Baldock suffered miserably while Clement was at the helm. Constantly in and out of the side.
Obita out throughout his entire tenure.
McCleary out.

Clement had literally no luck. His sacking was certainly harsh and difficult to understand.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Old Man Andrews » 08 Oct 2019 10:36

Zip
Old Man Andrews Our last 6 games have been horrendous. Why is it a manager cannot be judged on that? Zip is so blinkered on the Gomes issue, its worrying.



It’s called having an opinion my darling. I have been very critical of our appalling style of play and formation but feel he should be given time to sort it out rather than going through yet another sacking, paying compensation, hiring a new manager who will want to bring in different players etc etc. At some stage we have to give the manager of the day time to turn it around.

This endless cycle of hiring and sacking is leading us nowhere.

If we were 12th in the league winning one week and losing another then I would agree with you. In principle I don't want Gomes to be sacked really but I do not have the belief he still has the players on side which is based off the recent performances and defensive confusion. I worry that his messages are not getting over to the players.


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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Zip » 08 Oct 2019 10:36

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ
No, that's nonsense. He's being judged after a quarter of the season. We have 8 points FFS. Seem to be conveniently forgetting Wednesday and Hull to suit your own agenda too

If you generally think that 36 points in 34 league games is a decent record with the number of signings he's made, then your head must be buried in the sand. He's made 14 signings in 9 months. It's no-where good enough. We don't expect instant success (well, some may) but we want to see players and managers learning from mistakes and impacting upon that. He's reverting back to his first few games with high fullbacks and no midfield cover, with a toothless attack. How is that learning from mistakes?


I haven’t conveniently forgotten the first two games. The big signings did not all start until the Cardiff game. Everyone was fine and dandy after we beat Huddersfield so it’s on the last six games that he is being hammered.

Oh and you are one of those “bleating”on about Clement who was given until nearly halfway through the season to turn things around.


Actually even in the Huddersfield thread, people were saying we were poor and that we needed to improve if we had any aspirations of a decent finish this season. And in the Hull game, Pele started, Boye started, Joao started, Puscas played a half so even in that game, most of his signings featured

And the reason I “bleated” on about Clement being given more time is that we were progressing. We started badly, we picked it up. He was learning from his mistakes of being too open at the back, so he changed formation to make us more solid. He realised certain players weren’t up to it and dropped them accordingly. He stopped putting Kelly and Swift in the same midfield 3 which was clearly too lightweight. I’d be happy for Gomes to stay if he actually changed things around and didn’t keep doing the exact same thing each game. But personally, I don’t think he will



Fair post. If he doesn’t change then I cannot see results improving and he will be sacked. He has to change which I have kept mentioning throughout this thread. More of the same will not do.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Hendo » 08 Oct 2019 10:37

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Clement had literally no luck. His sacking was certainly harsh and difficult to understand.


I'm sorry, but, what?! Yes, we might've been starting to improve slightly under Clement, but difficult to understand? no.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Top Flight » 08 Oct 2019 10:39

Zip
Old Man Andrews Our last 6 games have been horrendous. Why is it a manager cannot be judged on that? Zip is so blinkered on the Gomes issue, its worrying.



It’s called having an opinion my darling. I have been very critical of our appalling style of play and formation but feel he should be given time to sort it out rather than going through yet another sacking, paying compensation, hiring a new manager who will want to bring in different players etc etc. At some stage we have to give the manager of the day time to turn it around.

This endless cycle of hiring and sacking is leading us nowhere.


I think Zip is right here. At some point we have to back a manager. It's the players that need to be sacked for under performance. The manager has to be allowed to do his job. The manager is there to find the solutions. But we never give them enough time and opportunity to do that. At some point we have to start backing a manager. No manager that I can remember has won a promotion with Reading before spending three seasons building up the team. Stam came close but he ultimately failed. Promotion is a minimum 3 season build job.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Hound » 08 Oct 2019 10:39

Zip
Old Man Andrews Our last 6 games have been horrendous. Why is it a manager cannot be judged on that? Zip is so blinkered on the Gomes issue, its worrying.



It’s called having an opinion my darling. I have been very critical of our appalling style of play and formation but feel he should be given time to sort it out rather than going through yet another sacking, paying compensation, hiring a new manager who will want to bring in different players etc etc. At some stage we have to give the manager of the day time to turn it around.

This endless cycle of hiring and sacking is leading us nowhere.


He's won 4 of his last 21. None of his last 6. As you've said the style of play is woeful, and the tactics poor. We're regressing rather than progressing. How much longer would you give genuinely - next international break?

If he doesn't go this week, then I think its fair to take stock at the next intl break. Unless we pull off a win in one of those tough games, I don't think he can continue


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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Zip » 08 Oct 2019 10:41

Old Man Andrews
Zip
Old Man Andrews Our last 6 games have been horrendous. Why is it a manager cannot be judged on that? Zip is so blinkered on the Gomes issue, its worrying.



It’s called having an opinion my darling. I have been very critical of our appalling style of play and formation but feel he should be given time to sort it out rather than going through yet another sacking, paying compensation, hiring a new manager who will want to bring in different players etc etc. At some stage we have to give the manager of the day time to turn it around.

This endless cycle of hiring and sacking is leading us nowhere.

If we were 12th in the league winning one week and losing another then I would agree with you. In principle I don't want Gomes to be sacked really but I do not have the belief he still has the players on side which is based off the recent performances and defensive confusion. I worry that his messages are not getting over to the players.


We will only know whether you are correct when he is eventually sacked. Moore came out and was critical of Clement inferring the players didn’t really understand what he wanted from them. Similar may be said by players of Gomes when he eventually goes. We just don’t know yet.

There certainly seems to be confusion around this zonal marking. To have three centre backs leaving one centre forward free to head home is unforgivable.
I was watching Richards last week. He came so far infield and was a long way adrift of his opponent. We have to get closer than that.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by krapmle » 08 Oct 2019 10:43

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Last edited by krapmle on 08 Oct 2019 10:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Zammo » 08 Oct 2019 10:43

Jose Gomes is a bl**dy nice bloke but he is massively out of his depth.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Old Man Andrews » 08 Oct 2019 10:44

Zammo Jose Gomes is a bl**dy nice bloke but he is massively out of his depth.

This is a pretty good and succinct analysis.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Zip » 08 Oct 2019 10:45

Hound
Zip
Old Man Andrews Our last 6 games have been horrendous. Why is it a manager cannot be judged on that? Zip is so blinkered on the Gomes issue, its worrying.



It’s called having an opinion my darling. I have been very critical of our appalling style of play and formation but feel he should be given time to sort it out rather than going through yet another sacking, paying compensation, hiring a new manager who will want to bring in different players etc etc. At some stage we have to give the manager of the day time to turn it around.

This endless cycle of hiring and sacking is leading us nowhere.


He's won 4 of his last 21. None of his last 6. As you've said the style of play is woeful, and the tactics poor. We're regressing rather than progressing. How much longer would you give genuinely - next international break?

If he doesn't go this week, then I think its fair to take stock at the next intl break. Unless we pull off a win in one of those tough games, I don't think he can continue


I’ve said December so in truth the next international break is not far off that and would give the club some time to bring someone else in. So that would be a sensible time. In truth there needs to be an immediate reaction against Preston from the very first minute. If we stand off them then my heart will sink.

I’m no apologist for Gomes. My comments on BFTG are very critical but at some stage this hiring and firing every season has to end because we are going nowhere with it as the last five years shows.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by genome » 08 Oct 2019 10:59

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Clement had literally no luck. His sacking was certainly harsh and difficult to understand.


I'm sorry, but, what?! Yes, we might've been starting to improve slightly under Clement, but difficult to understand? no.


Hmm. I remember some people being pretty against the sacking and the timing was definitely odd (our result were just slightly starting to pick up)

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by John Smith » 08 Oct 2019 11:16

Old Man Andrews
Zammo Jose Gomes is a bl**dy nice bloke but he is massively out of his depth.

This is a pretty good and succinct analysis.

Was it ever going to work? On paper we hired an unheard of manager with no CV and no experience of the league. He got us over the line last year but is sleepwalking into becoming statistically our worst manager in years. For him to address this would take a huge swing in his favour because I doubt the players are listening anymore.

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