GOMES OUT!

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 10 Oct 2019 16:00

Ryucoo
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Ryucoo Where did people expect us to be?


Not in the relegation zone...........

9 wins in 38 games. Please argue thats good enough.


I'd argue that' just numbers. Sure, it's a numbers game I guess but they don't tell the whole story. I'd say it would be fair to wipe last season off the slate and work from the assumption that this was his first shift in charge of his own team with a fresh start. In which case for me, 11 games (not all of which have been bad) is a pretty short window to be firing someone. Again.

And the numbers don't tell the future, which also has to be considered. They don't adjust to compensate for the fact our only choices of replacement are Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes or some other yawning tumbleweed.

So for me, the numbers aren't really enough data. They might be for you, and lucky you, they seem to be for our daft club too - and how's it working out for us? Good?


You're leaning on an open door there with many people on here, for sure. Not least me as like most I thoroughly like the chap.

But whether you like it or not "just numbers" is what the football league is all about. Games are undeservedly won and lost because of the "just numbers" of goals at full time. Teams go up and down on "just numbers". And sadly managers are judged on "just numbers". If games and even the league was based on judges deciding who played better maybe also owners would decide on managers' fates based on how nice they are, their mitigating circumstances etc. I don't believe in "the table doesn't like" argument, but still at the end of the day whether it lies or not, it's what matters, and Gomes knew that from day one. He knew he'd be judged on "just numbers", as does every manager and as should every player and every fan. Win ugly, win boring, but win. He knew that, he failed.

I don't think it's fair to completely discard last season either. If it was 5-6 games at the end of the season then yeah ok. But HALF the season plus a bunch of top class loanees to bolster the squad. Some of those loanees returned so not new as Ian argues, with more players bought and still no improvement in the numbers? You can dissect and explain away games in all sorts of ways but at the end of the day it's about numbers and he just didn't manage to get them. I feel sorry for him, but that's the way it is.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Zip » 10 Oct 2019 16:25

At some stage this constant cycle of hire and fire has to end. We are now getting through more managers than the vast majority of other clubs so it’s clearly not working as we are not improving year on year.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Snowflake Royal » 10 Oct 2019 17:23

Zip At some stage this constant cycle of hire and fire has to end. We are now getting through more managers than the vast majority of other clubs so it’s clearly not working as we are not improving year on year.

I can think of three ways it ends.

Someone manages to not be totally shit and operates somewhere approaching a 30% win rate
We get relegated and aren't constantly in a relegation battle.
We struggle, but show actual definitive signs of improvement for a change, or at least don't dramatically regress as soon as a new season starts.

You can complain all you want about a sacking culture, but if you get your two worst performing managers of all time in a row, you're going to get a bit of a sharp turnover.

Might be two of worst 3 tbf.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by URZZZZ » 10 Oct 2019 18:18

Snowflake Royal
Zip At some stage this constant cycle of hire and fire has to end. We are now getting through more managers than the vast majority of other clubs so it’s clearly not working as we are not improving year on year.

I can think of three ways it ends.

Someone manages to not be totally shit and operates somewhere approaching a 30% win rate
We get relegated and aren't constantly in a relegation battle.
We struggle, but show actual definitive signs of improvement for a change, or at least don't dramatically regress as soon as a new season starts.

You can complain all you want about a sacking culture, but if you get your two worst performing managers of all time in a row, you're going to get a bit of a sharp turnover.

Might be two of worst 3 tbf.


I wonder how our fans would have reacted to a situation like Paul Lambert and Ipswich last season. Pretty sure he came in October last year and had the lowest win % of any Ipswich manager. Yet they still loved him up there and now they're sitting top of league one, and the only unbeaten team in the football league

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Snowflake Royal » 10 Oct 2019 18:22

I mean, they all but knew they were down when he arrived. You'd have to be bonkers to hire a manager with a decent record partway through a season and then sack him on the inevitable relegation. Ipswich are a very big club for L1 so always had a great chance of having a top 10 season.

If Gomes had taken us down and survived to start the season (I doubt he would), I'm sure he'd have got a lot longer than 11 games this one, and won a good few more.


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Re: GOMES OUT!

by URZZZZ » 10 Oct 2019 18:26

I'm personally not sure any team is down in October 5 points off relegation. I know their squad was poor, and even though I was Gomes out myself, I don't think our fans would have reacted in the same way

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Snowflake Royal » 10 Oct 2019 18:29

URZZZZ I'm personally not sure any team is down in October 5 points off relegation. I know their squad was poor, and even though I was Gomes out myself, I don't think our fans would have reacted in the same way

Was it that early? Did have a ring of inevitability though.

I called it the second they sacked McCarthy. 8) :wink:

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Hendo » 10 Oct 2019 18:34

Snowflake Royal
URZZZZ I'm personally not sure any team is down in October 5 points off relegation. I know their squad was poor, and even though I was Gomes out myself, I don't think our fans would have reacted in the same way

Was it that early? Did have a ring of inevitability though.

I called it the second they sacked McCarthy. 8) :wink:


27th October he was appointed, I don’t think they had won a game.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Zip » 10 Oct 2019 18:53

URZZZZ I'm personally not sure any team is down in October 5 points off relegation. I know their squad was poor, and even though I was Gomes out myself, I don't think our fans would have reacted in the same way


We were five points off safety on New Years Day.


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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Hound » 10 Oct 2019 18:56

Always thought Ipswich only took to lambert because they knew they’d shat the bed by forcing McCarthy out

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by URZZZZ » 10 Oct 2019 19:00

Hendo
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URZZZZ I'm personally not sure any team is down in October 5 points off relegation. I know their squad was poor, and even though I was Gomes out myself, I don't think our fans would have reacted in the same way

Was it that early? Did have a ring of inevitability though.

I called it the second they sacked McCarthy. 8) :wink:


27th October he was appointed, I don’t think they had won a game.


They’d won one under Hurst, a 3-2 away win at Swansea on the 6th October. That had rumoured to save his job because it was just before an international break, but straight after they lost 2-0 to QPR and Leeds and pulled the plug

Completely different situation mind considering they bought loads of l1/2 players, was just bringing it up out of context

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Ryucoo » 10 Oct 2019 19:35

2 world wars, 1 world cup
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Not in the relegation zone...........

9 wins in 38 games. Please argue thats good enough.


I'd argue that' just numbers. Sure, it's a numbers game I guess but they don't tell the whole story. I'd say it would be fair to wipe last season off the slate and work from the assumption that this was his first shift in charge of his own team with a fresh start. In which case for me, 11 games (not all of which have been bad) is a pretty short window to be firing someone. Again.

And the numbers don't tell the future, which also has to be considered. They don't adjust to compensate for the fact our only choices of replacement are Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes or some other yawning tumbleweed.

So for me, the numbers aren't really enough data. They might be for you, and lucky you, they seem to be for our daft club too - and how's it working out for us? Good?


You're leaning on an open door there with many people on here, for sure. Not least me as like most I thoroughly like the chap.

But whether you like it or not "just numbers" is what the football league is all about. Games are undeservedly won and lost because of the "just numbers" of goals at full time. Teams go up and down on "just numbers". And sadly managers are judged on "just numbers". If games and even the league was based on judges deciding who played better maybe also owners would decide on managers' fates based on how nice they are, their mitigating circumstances etc. I don't believe in "the table doesn't like" argument, but still at the end of the day whether it lies or not, it's what matters, and Gomes knew that from day one. He knew he'd be judged on "just numbers", as does every manager and as should every player and every fan. Win ugly, win boring, but win. He knew that, he failed.

I don't think it's fair to completely discard last season either. If it was 5-6 games at the end of the season then yeah ok. But HALF the season plus a bunch of top class loanees to bolster the squad. Some of those loanees returned so not new as Ian argues, with more players bought and still no improvement in the numbers? You can dissect and explain away games in all sorts of ways but at the end of the day it's about numbers and he just didn't manage to get them. I feel sorry for him, but that's the way it is.


I'm saying that I think working on "just numbers" is bollocks. Reading have been in the 'rebuilding' phase for 8 ruddy years. People seem keen for things to change, yet Insta-sacking mediocrity for mediocrity isn't change - it's repeating the same shit, hammering the reset button every few months like Groundhog United.

I just don't get why firing people is the go to solution these days. It's like the modern football club is a conference hall of fancy executive positions yet nobody talks to each other. "Yeah he's shit so we fired him" - weird: he was the fking greatest thing since sliced cork when you hired him the other week, you complete prong. Fire yourself. YOU'RE shit, mate.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Snowflake Royal » 10 Oct 2019 22:46

Ryucoo
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I'd argue that' just numbers. Sure, it's a numbers game I guess but they don't tell the whole story. I'd say it would be fair to wipe last season off the slate and work from the assumption that this was his first shift in charge of his own team with a fresh start. In which case for me, 11 games (not all of which have been bad) is a pretty short window to be firing someone. Again.

And the numbers don't tell the future, which also has to be considered. They don't adjust to compensate for the fact our only choices of replacement are Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes or some other yawning tumbleweed.

So for me, the numbers aren't really enough data. They might be for you, and lucky you, they seem to be for our daft club too - and how's it working out for us? Good?


You're leaning on an open door there with many people on here, for sure. Not least me as like most I thoroughly like the chap.

But whether you like it or not "just numbers" is what the football league is all about. Games are undeservedly won and lost because of the "just numbers" of goals at full time. Teams go up and down on "just numbers". And sadly managers are judged on "just numbers". If games and even the league was based on judges deciding who played better maybe also owners would decide on managers' fates based on how nice they are, their mitigating circumstances etc. I don't believe in "the table doesn't like" argument, but still at the end of the day whether it lies or not, it's what matters, and Gomes knew that from day one. He knew he'd be judged on "just numbers", as does every manager and as should every player and every fan. Win ugly, win boring, but win. He knew that, he failed.

I don't think it's fair to completely discard last season either. If it was 5-6 games at the end of the season then yeah ok. But HALF the season plus a bunch of top class loanees to bolster the squad. Some of those loanees returned so not new as Ian argues, with more players bought and still no improvement in the numbers? You can dissect and explain away games in all sorts of ways but at the end of the day it's about numbers and he just didn't manage to get them. I feel sorry for him, but that's the way it is.


I'm saying that I think working on "just numbers" is bollocks. Reading have been in the 'rebuilding' phase for 8 ruddy years. People seem keen for things to change, yet Insta-sacking mediocrity for mediocrity isn't change - it's repeating the same shit, hammering the reset button every few months like Groundhog United.

I just don't get why firing people is the go to solution these days. It's like the modern football club is a conference hall of fancy executive positions yet nobody talks to each other. "Yeah he's shit so we fired him" - weird: he was the fking greatest thing since sliced cork when you hired him the other week, you complete prong. Fire yourself. YOU'RE shit, mate.

It's not mediocrity though is it. Mediocrity would have been a big improvement.

3 wins in 18, 2 in 11, 0 in 6 is bloody awful. At the end of the day, it wasn't just a bit stale and waiting to click, it was as bad if not worse than when he joined and going backwards fast from the mediocrity he achieved in the middle of his spell last season.

If you can't keep above a 25% win rate as a manager, you've got no business being in a job.

It's not like his recent record before joining us was much better to suggest he could change it either.

Bit daft to give a long term rebuild project to a guy who has never lasted 2 years in a job across 10 clubs.

He'd had over 30 games. More than Clement got. More than Rodgers got.


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Re: GOMES OUT!

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 11 Oct 2019 00:36

Ryucoo
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I'd argue that' just numbers. Sure, it's a numbers game I guess but they don't tell the whole story. I'd say it would be fair to wipe last season off the slate and work from the assumption that this was his first shift in charge of his own team with a fresh start. In which case for me, 11 games (not all of which have been bad) is a pretty short window to be firing someone. Again.

And the numbers don't tell the future, which also has to be considered. They don't adjust to compensate for the fact our only choices of replacement are Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes or some other yawning tumbleweed.

So for me, the numbers aren't really enough data. They might be for you, and lucky you, they seem to be for our daft club too - and how's it working out for us? Good?


You're leaning on an open door there with many people on here, for sure. Not least me as like most I thoroughly like the chap.

But whether you like it or not "just numbers" is what the football league is all about. Games are undeservedly won and lost because of the "just numbers" of goals at full time. Teams go up and down on "just numbers". And sadly managers are judged on "just numbers". If games and even the league was based on judges deciding who played better maybe also owners would decide on managers' fates based on how nice they are, their mitigating circumstances etc. I don't believe in "the table doesn't like" argument, but still at the end of the day whether it lies or not, it's what matters, and Gomes knew that from day one. He knew he'd be judged on "just numbers", as does every manager and as should every player and every fan. Win ugly, win boring, but win. He knew that, he failed.

I don't think it's fair to completely discard last season either. If it was 5-6 games at the end of the season then yeah ok. But HALF the season plus a bunch of top class loanees to bolster the squad. Some of those loanees returned so not new as Ian argues, with more players bought and still no improvement in the numbers? You can dissect and explain away games in all sorts of ways but at the end of the day it's about numbers and he just didn't manage to get them. I feel sorry for him, but that's the way it is.


I'm saying that I think working on "just numbers" is bollocks. Reading have been in the 'rebuilding' phase for 8 ruddy years. People seem keen for things to change, yet Insta-sacking mediocrity for mediocrity isn't change - it's repeating the same shit, hammering the reset button every few months like Groundhog United.

I just don't get why firing people is the go to solution these days. It's like the modern football club is a conference hall of fancy executive positions yet nobody talks to each other. "Yeah he's shit so we fired him" - weird: he was the fking greatest thing since sliced cork when you hired him the other week, you complete prong. Fire yourself. YOU'RE shit, mate.



I get that. Perhaps home grown talent from within the club is the way to go. It worked with McD, McGhee, Gooding and Quin, Pardew. I'd be more than happy and quite content and loyal to someone like Parky or murty or Ade Williams or Sanchez etc. Give them long contracts long projects. Home grown nice long tenure like Dario Gradi and Crewe (if I remember correctly).

But why should that person be some (albeit nice) foreign chap who's never worked in England before? He came in as an outsider to the English game, a mercenary ousting local talent with the intent to make a quick hit. He knew what he was, what he was doing here. He failed. Die by the sword live by the sword. So I'm open to the whole local family club thing but I don't see why Gomes would be the guy we would be loyal with, especially when we know he only came to England to work with *any* PL club.

And sadly his record was very poor. I could partly understand it if he was partly good. He basically had nothing positive at all to offer in terms of numbers. Lovely personality though and I sincerely hope he does well in Portugal or somewhere else in England.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Ryucoo » 13 Oct 2019 00:20

His record was his record when we hired him. If it was important, it should have been important then. It obviously wasn't.

I'm not particularly defending Gomes personally here. I'm just on the edge of not giving much of a shite anymore. 7 years we've been hiring and firing and nothing has got any better. Actually, you could argue the football has been better under Gomes than Stam, Clement or Clarke - but maybe thats subjective. Point is, we get what, Hughes in - no improvement after 4 months, sack him too? Why hire him in the first place? I mean, sacking the manager is the go-to solution but there isn't any evidence to suggest it works. In fact, the evidence seems to be to the contrary. We don't have much evidence that sticking it out with someone through a (relative) trough is a 'bad idea'. I just wonder if we aren't just shite, and starting over every five minutes is hardly helping.

No wonder Reading is struggling for an identity, everything and everyone is just so short term.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Snowflake Royal » 13 Oct 2019 11:04

There's a pretty clear rationale for hiring all our managers except Gomes tbh. Not necessarily worked, which is why I hope we take a different approach this time and go for someone experienced. Our approach since Coppell, for the most part, has been to bring in unknowns or inexperienced managers, presumably because we couldn't, or wouldn't compete for the actual proven managers (and didn't want to jump on the failed manager merrigoround)

Clement - highly rated coach who had previously saved a club in dire straights, with a possibly unfair deal at Derby. Tbf, in 8 games he did his job. Worse squad than Gomes inherited IMO, was actually moving in the right direction, if nowhere near quick enough.

Stam - big name expected to go places, who had learnt from the best. Started very well, but showed a total lack of flexibility or adaptability beyond that.

McDermott - never given a chance. Safe pair of hands the owners never really wanted. Did nothing wrong.

Clarke - inexperienced, but highly rated coach. His lack of commitment is largely what screwed over his time here, though wasn't good enough.

Gomes - clearly just an error. Plenty of managerial experience, but nothing in it to recommend him. Third or possibly even fourth choice. No experience in England. Talks a very good game. Nice and positive. Unless he decides he doesn't like / want you.

Hughes / Hughton / Ainsworth / Parkinson.... etc all a completely different kettle of fish. All have much more experience than anyone we've appointed recently except Adkins and maybe McDermott. All have a record of improving a team. Three of them have promotions and the other has only managed in the top flight. Adkins mainly failed due to Zingaravich and the utter shambles we were behind the scenes. McDermott2 didn't even fail. I doubt he'd have seen us in the POs, but I'm also certain he wouldn't have seen us heading for relegation the season after.

We need an experienced manager with a good record for a change. The sort of manager who can earn the time needed to bring the stability we so desperately need.

The chances of getting that with a rookie, or someone with no record of success is slim. I don't mind allowing someone to fail and take us down if there are big problems behind the scenes, or they look like they're learning and can improve. But a guy who has always been mediocre at best and who got us to mediocre before descending into atrocious!? No. Just no.

There's very little reason to think a proven manager couldn't get more out of this squad and have us at least lower mid table and safe to earn the time to do more.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by BR0B0T » 13 Oct 2019 15:10

Snowflake Royal Gomes - clearly just an error. Plenty of managerial experience, but nothing in it to recommend him. Third or possibly even fourth choice. No experience in England. Talks a very good game. Nice and positive. Unless he decides he doesn't like / want you.


another error the board made is not waiting until this thread hit 50 pages #amateurs

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by Ascotexgunner » 13 Oct 2019 16:11

Snowflake Royal There's a pretty clear rationale for hiring all our managers except Gomes tbh. Not necessarily worked, which is why I hope we take a different approach this time and go for someone experienced. Our approach since Coppell, for the most part, has been to bring in unknowns or inexperienced managers, presumably because we couldn't, or wouldn't compete for the actual proven managers (and didn't want to jump on the failed manager merrigoround)

Clement - highly rated coach who had previously saved a club in dire straights, with a possibly unfair deal at Derby. Tbf, in 8 games he did his job. Worse squad than Gomes inherited IMO, was actually moving in the right direction, if nowhere near quick enough.

Stam - big name expected to go places, who had learnt from the best. Started very well, but showed a total lack of flexibility or adaptability beyond that.

McDermott - never given a chance. Safe pair of hands the owners never really wanted. Did nothing wrong.

Clarke - inexperienced, but highly rated coach. His lack of commitment is largely what screwed over his time here, though wasn't good enough.

Gomes - clearly just an error. Plenty of managerial experience, but nothing in it to recommend him. Third or possibly even fourth choice. No experience in England. Talks a very good game. Nice and positive. Unless he decides he doesn't like / want you.

Hughes / Hughton / Ainsworth / Parkinson.... etc all a completely different kettle of fish. All have much more experience than anyone we've appointed recently except Adkins and maybe McDermott. All have a record of improving a team. Three of them have promotions and the other has only managed in the top flight. Adkins mainly failed due to Zingaravich and the utter shambles we were behind the scenes. McDermott2 didn't even fail. I doubt he'd have seen us in the POs, but I'm also certain he wouldn't have seen us heading for relegation the season after.

We need an experienced manager with a good record for a change. The sort of manager who can earn the time needed to bring the stability we so desperately need.

The chances of getting that with a rookie, or someone with no record of success is slim. I don't mind allowing someone to fail and take us down if there are big problems behind the scenes, or they look like they're learning and can improve. But a guy who has always been mediocre at best and who got us to mediocre before descending into atrocious!? No. Just no.

There's very little reason to think a proven manager couldn't get more out of this squad and have us at least lower mid table and safe to earn the time to do more.


Have you nothing to do on a Sunday afternoon :lol:
In short we havnt appointed a manager who has actually done something since BM mk1 who nearly got Slough into the league which is some achievement. Pipped by Martin o Neill's Wycombe was no disgrace.
The rest have done nothing . Adkins did OK but he never fitted and the fact we pipped a very good Soton Team he managed to the title cost him his job even though they went up. They clearly knew something down there.
I agree....if you don't pick the right bloke and gamble every time with a new manager like we have been doing we will sack them regularly when it goes wrong.
Its time we went for good old fashioned experienced person backed up with a positive CV for a change.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by windermereROYAL » 14 Oct 2019 10:53

BR0B0T get this joker out of are wolfcastle.gifclub


Careful what you wish for you f**king bell.

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Re: GOMES OUT!

by WoodleyRoyal » 14 Oct 2019 11:39

BR0B0T
windermereROYAL
BR0B0T get this joker out of are wolfcastle.gifclub


Careful what you wish for you f**king bell.


I wish that windermereRoyal gets cancer...purely to kill the AIDS he obviously has!


:shock:

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