BFTG - Luton

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by muirinho » 12 Nov 2019 22:18

Hound Yes - and then had the recurring hamstring injuries the season after

That was a horror season for him tbh. Just handed a big 5 year deal, team playing crap, and clueless medical staff not having a clue how to treat it. Think he basically said in the end it just sorted itself out - all a bit weird


He had to change the way he ran to stop his hamstrings being so stressed. Sounds like he went looking for advice far and wide - he mentioned he saw three or four different people in Ireland - surely he'd have looked for advice in England, even if outside the club, before travelling abroad. So suggesting that because the medical staff didn't know how to treat it meant that they were clueless is harsh, it was obviously a very unusual issue - scans kept coming up clear, he'd play a game, and hamstrings would go again.

https://www.wokinghampaper.co.uk/john-s ... eading-fc/

I know that Stam is not a popular manager - but if Obita hadn't got injured and Swift had been fit that season, doubt we'd have been in the state we were in by March

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by NewCorkSeth » 12 Nov 2019 22:29

muirinho
Hound Yes - and then had the recurring hamstring injuries the season after

That was a horror season for him tbh. Just handed a big 5 year deal, team playing crap, and clueless medical staff not having a clue how to treat it. Think he basically said in the end it just sorted itself out - all a bit weird


He had to change the way he ran to stop his hamstrings being so stressed. Sounds like he went looking for advice far and wide - he mentioned he saw three or four different people in Ireland - surely he'd have looked for advice in England, even if outside the club, before travelling abroad. So suggesting that because the medical staff didn't know how to treat it meant that they were clueless is harsh, it was obviously a very unusual issue - scans kept coming up clear, he'd play a game, and hamstrings would go again.

https://www.wokinghampaper.co.uk/john-s ... eading-fc/

I know that Stam is not a popular manager - but if Obita hadn't got injured and Swift had been fit that season, doubt we'd have been in the state we were in by March

Never saw that article! Very interesting ti read. He comes across very professional in it. Although I've always had a soft spot (or is it a hard spot?) for Swift so I'm the least trust worthy opinion to trust on Hob Nob when it comes to the golden child.

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by URZZZZ » 12 Nov 2019 22:52

It certainly explains why he lumbered around the pitch doing nothing for 12 months

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Hound » 13 Nov 2019 07:01

muirinho
Hound Yes - and then had the recurring hamstring injuries the season after

That was a horror season for him tbh. Just handed a big 5 year deal, team playing crap, and clueless medical staff not having a clue how to treat it. Think he basically said in the end it just sorted itself out - all a bit weird


He had to change the way he ran to stop his hamstrings being so stressed. Sounds like he went looking for advice far and wide - he mentioned he saw three or four different people in Ireland - surely he'd have looked for advice in England, even if outside the club, before travelling abroad. So suggesting that because the medical staff didn't know how to treat it meant that they were clueless is harsh, it was obviously a very unusual issue - scans kept coming up clear, he'd play a game, and hamstrings would go again.

https://www.wokinghampaper.co.uk/john-s ... eading-fc/

I know that Stam is not a popular manager - but if Obita hadn't got injured and Swift had been fit that season, doubt we'd have been in the state we were in by March


Yann of course as well. A pale shadow when he finally returned but an absolutely massive loss at the start of the year. McCleary another who was key to the previous season and injured

Along with Williams and AAH, basically lost the entire spine of what had made us successful

He was unlucky tbf that year (but the. Obvs failed to adapt)

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Millsy » 13 Nov 2019 07:47

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muirinho
Hound Yes - and then had the recurring hamstring injuries the season after

That was a horror season for him tbh. Just handed a big 5 year deal, team playing crap, and clueless medical staff not having a clue how to treat it. Think he basically said in the end it just sorted itself out - all a bit weird


He had to change the way he ran to stop his hamstrings being so stressed. Sounds like he went looking for advice far and wide - he mentioned he saw three or four different people in Ireland - surely he'd have looked for advice in England, even if outside the club, before travelling abroad. So suggesting that because the medical staff didn't know how to treat it meant that they were clueless is harsh, it was obviously a very unusual issue - scans kept coming up clear, he'd play a game, and hamstrings would go again.

https://www.wokinghampaper.co.uk/john-s ... eading-fc/

I know that Stam is not a popular manager - but if Obita hadn't got injured and Swift had been fit that season, doubt we'd have been in the state we were in by March


Yann of course as well. A pale shadow when he finally returned but an absolutely massive loss at the start of the year. McCleary another who was key to the previous season and injured

Along with Williams and AAH, basically lost the entire spine of what had made us successful

He was unlucky tbf that year (but the. Obvs failed to adapt)


You make your own luck.

What did he do when we were desperate for a LB and 2 strikers?

Bring in a shitload of vaguely attacking midfielder type people.

I have little sympathy for the guy.


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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Millsy » 13 Nov 2019 08:42

Vision I think one of the issues Gomes had in my view was that he seemed to micromanage the players to the point that they didn't seem able to work things out for themselves on the pitch. The Fulham game after Swift was sent off springs to mind. Bowen himself has admitted that he feels there have been times when he's bombarded the players with too much information.


Good post, I agree with your points especially Gomes being unlucky with the crucial Miazga absence just as things were piecing together.

BUT I'm not sure about the above. If anything it suggests to me that Gomes didn't give them much tactical direction other than "keep the ball when you can" and "don't bother man marking" ;) And now Bowen is bombarding them with how to play football all the way up the pitch and now the players seem to KNOW what they are doing whereas before they seemed very disjointed and left too much to themselves.

Of course they could "know" what they are doing more now because they just have less pressure, less info to process, more freedom to work it out among themselves as you're suggesting. Or it could be because they have been given direction.

Does Bowen say he's bombaridng them with too much information in a "I know you have to be careful as a manager and not confuse players so I'm mindful of that and have been holding back where possible so they can express themselves" sort of way or a "these guys need a LOT of work and a lot of info to get them to play properly and I'm mindful that it is quite a lot of information I'm bombarding them with but it's absolutely necessary and they're taking it on board well and improving as a result" sort of way.

I see it the latter way, to be honest, and even thought at the beginning he's only saying it to justify his existence and prove to everyone he's actually doing something different. "Hey look at me they're playing better because of all the new direction I'm giving them!" But now I actually think we are doing better because of much better direction and info he's giving them.

Interesting! :)

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Forbury Lion » 13 Nov 2019 08:59

Hound Yes - and then had the recurring hamstring injuries the season after

That was a horror season for him tbh. Just handed a big 5 year deal, team playing crap, and clueless medical staff not having a clue how to treat it. Think he basically said in the end it just sorted itself out - all a bit weird
Maybe this is where the club need to focus their efforts, rather than the playing side of things.
I guess everyone is doing the Sports Science thing these days, but maybe there's a new thing we can investigate? - maybe more mental coaching to keep the players brains alert/active/thinking quicker as well as the regular physical training?

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by WestYorksRoyal » 13 Nov 2019 09:20

Forbury Lion
Hound Yes - and then had the recurring hamstring injuries the season after

That was a horror season for him tbh. Just handed a big 5 year deal, team playing crap, and clueless medical staff not having a clue how to treat it. Think he basically said in the end it just sorted itself out - all a bit weird
Maybe this is where the club need to focus their efforts, rather than the playing side of things.
I guess everyone is doing the Sports Science thing these days, but maybe there's a new thing we can investigate? - maybe more mental coaching to keep the players brains alert/active/thinking quicker as well as the regular physical training?

I am wondering if something changed behind the scenes on injuries. We've had a few this season with Blackett, Miazga, Joao and Meite, but it's not been a continual crisis. Players have been out for a few weeks and then come back. Compare that with the last few years, where a player would apparently pick up a knock, you'd have no idea what the details were or what the timescale to return was, and then they'd mysteriously be out for a few months. I think Howe, Bowen and possibly Gomes before he was sacked have looked at this.

That being said I couldn't tell you what Joao's injury is or when he is expected to return.

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Hound » 13 Nov 2019 09:27

WestYorksRoyal
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Hound Yes - and then had the recurring hamstring injuries the season after

That was a horror season for him tbh. Just handed a big 5 year deal, team playing crap, and clueless medical staff not having a clue how to treat it. Think he basically said in the end it just sorted itself out - all a bit weird
Maybe this is where the club need to focus their efforts, rather than the playing side of things.
I guess everyone is doing the Sports Science thing these days, but maybe there's a new thing we can investigate? - maybe more mental coaching to keep the players brains alert/active/thinking quicker as well as the regular physical training?

I am wondering if something changed behind the scenes on injuries. We've had a few this season with Blackett, Miazga, Joao and Meite, but it's not been a continual crisis. Players have been out for a few weeks and then come back. Compare that with the last few years, where a player would apparently pick up a knock, you'd have no idea what the details were or what the timescale to return was, and then they'd mysteriously be out for a few months. I think Howe, Bowen and possibly Gomes before he was sacked have looked at this.

That being said I couldn't tell you what Joao's injury is or when he is expected to return.


Since Gomes joined, and brought in his staff, the injuries appear from the outside to have been a lot better managed

Obita looks 100%, injury prone Baldock and Swift have stayed fit so far and people have come back in the timeframes expected for the inevitable injuries that do get picked up.

Obvs difficult to know exactly what has changed behind the scene but something positive seemed to happen when Gomes came along


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Re: BFTG - Luton

by From Despair To Where? » 13 Nov 2019 10:08

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WestYorksRoyal
Forbury Lion Maybe this is where the club need to focus their efforts, rather than the playing side of things.
I guess everyone is doing the Sports Science thing these days, but maybe there's a new thing we can investigate? - maybe more mental coaching to keep the players brains alert/active/thinking quicker as well as the regular physical training?

I am wondering if something changed behind the scenes on injuries. We've had a few this season with Blackett, Miazga, Joao and Meite, but it's not been a continual crisis. Players have been out for a few weeks and then come back. Compare that with the last few years, where a player would apparently pick up a knock, you'd have no idea what the details were or what the timescale to return was, and then they'd mysteriously be out for a few months. I think Howe, Bowen and possibly Gomes before he was sacked have looked at this.

That being said I couldn't tell you what Joao's injury is or when he is expected to return.


Since Gomes joined, and brought in his staff, the injuries appear from the outside to have been a lot better managed

Obita looks 100%, injury prone Baldock and Swift have stayed fit so far and people have come back in the timeframes expected for the inevitable injuries that do get picked up.

Obvs difficult to know exactly what has changed behind the scene but something positive seemed to happen when Gomes came along



Bad luck with injuries is having 1 or 2 key players getting injured during games, not having 7 or 8 players constantly nursing muscle strains and taking 3 times as long to recover as they should. That's bad training, conditioning and treatment.

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Hound » 13 Nov 2019 10:13

yes agreed, and thats obviously what was happening under the Stam/Clement regime - and hence what I mentioned about it changing when Gomes arrived.

Its probably the one thing I look back on with JG and would say he really improved.

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by paultheroyal » 13 Nov 2019 11:02

Hound yes agreed, and thats obviously what was happening under the Stam/Clement regime - and hence what I mentioned about it changing when Gomes arrived.

Its probably the one thing I look back on with JG and would say he really improved.

I
Probably more to do with the players not being told to put it in as much in training. Tippy tappy stuff. Players looked physically unfit.

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by WestYorksRoyal » 13 Nov 2019 11:05

Hound yes agreed, and thats obviously what was happening under the Stam/Clement regime - and hence what I mentioned about it changing when Gomes arrived.

Its probably the one thing I look back on with JG and would say he really improved.

The one thing? He kept us up, he was very likeable and brought positivity back to the club. He helped shift a lot of deadwood out of a bloated, mediocre squad.

He was tactically naive and out of his depth, while his treatment of Gunter and McCleary looks like a big mistake. However, as far as "unsuccessful" managers go, he has played a very important role in what looks like the start of our recovery. Not that I'm questioning the decision to sack him; I was dubious at the time but all subsequently signs show it was the right call.


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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Hound » 13 Nov 2019 11:25

WestYorksRoyal
Hound yes agreed, and thats obviously what was happening under the Stam/Clement regime - and hence what I mentioned about it changing when Gomes arrived.

Its probably the one thing I look back on with JG and would say he really improved.

The one thing? He kept us up, he was very likeable and brought positivity back to the club. He helped shift a lot of deadwood out of a bloated, mediocre squad.

He was tactically naive and out of his depth, while his treatment of Gunter and McCleary looks like a big mistake. However, as far as "unsuccessful" managers go, he has played a very important role in what looks like the start of our recovery. Not that I'm questioning the decision to sack him; I was dubious at the time but all subsequently signs show it was the right call.


ah, I mean thats my opinion. I find the other stuff a bit wishy washy. Agreed he brought positivity back, and he certainly gave us a big boost when he came in - but the Fulham and Blackburn games were back to square 1 imo. Awful atmosphere vs Blackburn and turgid football. I actually think there is far more positivity around our current situation.

Also thinks it downplays a little how much of that positivity was brought in by Emi, Nelson, baker and Miazga who were outstanding characters as well as players

Deadwood? I dunno. We got rid of some, but not sure how much it was to do with him tbh. Dumped McNulty, Gunter, GMac, Kelly, Bod, Baldock, Mannone. Aluko and Mannone are back with us, as are G, Gunter and Baldock. The out of contractors were no-brainers. Meyler just shot. Aluko was almost certainly done at Director level, and wasn't actually binned by JG. Debatable whether some of those brought in are much of an upgrade on Bod.

I'm genuinely unclear on how much he had to do with recruitment. Seems his choice to bin people off to the u23, but that seemed to backfire more than anything. It certainly looks like the players didn't agree with sidelining McCleary and Baldock particularly

On the other hand, since he came in we definitely look fitter, stronger and the number of late goals we have scored would also back that up

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by URZZZZ » 13 Nov 2019 22:32

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Hound yes agreed, and thats obviously what was happening under the Stam/Clement regime - and hence what I mentioned about it changing when Gomes arrived.

Its probably the one thing I look back on with JG and would say he really improved.

The one thing? He kept us up, he was very likeable and brought positivity back to the club. He helped shift a lot of deadwood out of a bloated, mediocre squad.

He was tactically naive and out of his depth, while his treatment of Gunter and McCleary looks like a big mistake. However, as far as "unsuccessful" managers go, he has played a very important role in what looks like the start of our recovery. Not that I'm questioning the decision to sack him; I was dubious at the time but all subsequently signs show it was the right call.


ah, I mean thats my opinion. I find the other stuff a bit wishy washy. Agreed he brought positivity back, and he certainly gave us a big boost when he came in - but the Fulham and Blackburn games were back to square 1 imo. Awful atmosphere vs Blackburn and turgid football. I actually think there is far more positivity around our current situation.

Also thinks it downplays a little how much of that positivity was brought in by Emi, Nelson, baker and Miazga who were outstanding characters as well as players

Deadwood? I dunno. We got rid of some, but not sure how much it was to do with him tbh. Dumped McNulty, Gunter, GMac, Kelly, Bod, Baldock, Mannone. Aluko and Mannone are back with us, as are G, Gunter and Baldock. The out of contractors were no-brainers. Meyler just shot. Aluko was almost certainly done at Director level, and wasn't actually binned by JG. Debatable whether some of those brought in are much of an upgrade on Bod.

I'm genuinely unclear on how much he had to do with recruitment. Seems his choice to bin people off to the u23, but that seemed to backfire more than anything. It certainly looks like the players didn't agree with sidelining McCleary and Baldock particularly

On the other hand, since he came in we definitely look fitter, stronger and the number of late goals we have scored would also back that up


We scored quite a few late goals with Clement didn't we?

Villa (A)
Preston (A)
Ipswich (H)
Birmingham (A)
Stoke (H)
Even missing the 90th minute penalty away at Leeds

Even under Stam's second season, we scored quite a few late goals, albeit less than the last couple. The main difference being is that we seem to have cut out the late goals conceded since Gomes joined. Correlation between Ilori leaving and getting in two proper defenders in in Miazga and Morrison, I think...

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Hound » 14 Nov 2019 07:02

Fair on Clement. I don’t think we scored many late under Stam at all tbh. Maybe someone will prove me wrong

I don’t think we conceded too many late ones under PC either. I remember Brentford but not many others

In fact last couple of years we seem to have scored and extraordinary number of late ones compared to conceding them

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by From Despair To Where? » 14 Nov 2019 08:11

Hound yes agreed, and thats obviously what was happening under the Stam/Clement regime - and hence what I mentioned about it changing when Gomes arrived.

Its probably the one thing I look back on with JG and would say he really improved.


I was agreeing with with you. I remember comments about a lack of intensity in Stam's training sessions and it speaks volumes that of all the staff Gomes brought with him, it was his assistant manager and fitness coach.


I don't really believe in luck, not over there course of a season in any case. "Lucky" teams tend to prepare better, work harder and, ironically, don't rely on luck to get results.

As Samuel Goldwyn said, "The harder I work, the luckier I get"

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by URZZZZ » 14 Nov 2019 13:43

Hound Fair on Clement. I don’t think we scored many late under Stam at all tbh. Maybe someone will prove me wrong

I don’t think we conceded too many late ones under PC either. I remember Brentford but not many others

In fact last couple of years we seem to have scored and extraordinary number of late ones compared to conceding them


From memory, we scored a few late ones under Stam in his second season (although not 90+ plus ones) such as Hull (H), Leeds (A), Birmingham (A), Bolton (A) but most of these were at the start of the season, it really seemed to tail off December time

Then under Clement more of the problem was that 15 minute spell after half time. It was Marshall where we managed to concede a lateish goal in all 3 of his games which was a problem

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Millsy » 15 Nov 2019 12:31

I was going to write something here but realised I have nothing to add, so I wont.

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Re: BFTG - Luton

by Snowflake Royal » 15 Nov 2019 16:29

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WestYorksRoyal
Hound yes agreed, and thats obviously what was happening under the Stam/Clement regime - and hence what I mentioned about it changing when Gomes arrived.

Its probably the one thing I look back on with JG and would say he really improved.

The one thing? He kept us up, he was very likeable and brought positivity back to the club. He helped shift a lot of deadwood out of a bloated, mediocre squad.

He was tactically naive and out of his depth, while his treatment of Gunter and McCleary looks like a big mistake. However, as far as "unsuccessful" managers go, he has played a very important role in what looks like the start of our recovery. Not that I'm questioning the decision to sack him; I was dubious at the time but all subsequently signs show it was the right call.


ah, I mean thats my opinion. I find the other stuff a bit wishy washy. Agreed he brought positivity back, and he certainly gave us a big boost when he came in - but the Fulham and Blackburn games were back to square 1 imo. Awful atmosphere vs Blackburn and turgid football. I actually think there is far more positivity around our current situation.

Also thinks it downplays a little how much of that positivity was brought in by Emi, Nelson, baker and Miazga who were outstanding characters as well as players

Deadwood? I dunno. We got rid of some, but not sure how much it was to do with him tbh. Dumped McNulty, Gunter, GMac, Kelly, Bod, Baldock, Mannone. Aluko and Mannone are back with us, as are G, Gunter and Baldock. The out of contractors were no-brainers. Meyler just shot. Aluko was almost certainly done at Director level, and wasn't actually binned by JG. Debatable whether some of those brought in are much of an upgrade on Bod.

I'm genuinely unclear on how much he had to do with recruitment. Seems his choice to bin people off to the u23, but that seemed to backfire more than anything. It certainly looks like the players didn't agree with sidelining McCleary and Baldock particularly

On the other hand, since he came in we definitely look fitter, stronger and the number of late goals we have scored would also back that up

You could argue Gomes wasn't the one to bring the positivity back, it was the fans and he just happened to coincide as a new manager impetus.

I can't think of a manager who didn't start with positivity and honesty.

I'm not sure you can really credit him there other than being a suave handsome devil.

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