Bowen Out.

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: Bowen Out.

by Snowflake Royal » 18 Feb 2020 19:59

leon
Snowflake Royal It's better than the last few pages of the Leeds thread


That’s a bit like saying eating cat shit is better than eating dog shit

Hmmm. I'd probably go with rabbit shit and cat shit.

They're both shit, but one of them is a lot less palatable.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Zip » 18 Feb 2020 20:02

Snowflake Royal
Greatwesternline Since Bowen started he has had a hooneymoon period though.

You would expect him to have a good three of four games where the players play better than average, as they have a new boss to impress.

Adjusting for that, is it that impressive? It is solid.

Next season he won't have a honeymoon period. And given the sums we spent last summer he is unlikely to find his squad materially improving. It might need some sales to avoid FFP rearing its head again which i'm sure it will.

He will have to improve on this season just to keep still. Maybe he can do that. Its possible. I'm not sure it was worth throwing a new contract at him within a few months of being hired.

It's still roughly 25 points in 18 games, which is about 1.4 points per game and a 64 point season. SO a clear improvement on what went before. Ontop of that, with all our recent managerial changes we've seen that the new manager bounce is a bit of a myth and there's no real reason to think that Bowen's first three / four games should be discounted.

As for next season, we lose a lot of wages off the bill. McCleary, Gunter, Blackett and Obita all leave or need new deals. Plus we lose a major loss season from the accounting period.


Yes our massive loss of something like £20 million from 16/17 will no longer form part of the three year FFP cycle which will give the club more leeway in the summer transfer window. Bowen may well have a decentish budget.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by SCIAG » 18 Feb 2020 20:47

Zip
Greatwesternline Since Bowen started he has had a hooneymoon period though.

You would expect him to have a good three of four games where the players play better than average, as they have a new boss to impress.

Adjusting for that, is it that impressive? It is solid.

Next season he won't have a honeymoon period. And given the sums we spent last summer he is unlikely to find his squad materially improving. It might need some sales to avoid FFP rearing its head again which i'm sure it will.

He will have to improve on this season just to keep still. Maybe he can do that. Its possible. I'm not sure it was worth throwing a new contract at him within a few months of being hired.


There is no guarantee of a honeymoon period for any manager so he should be judged on his record to date which is good, Whether he can maintain or even better that remains to be seen but he deserves credit to date.

Yeah pretty sure the whole concept is folklore, like the MOTM curse or second season syndrome.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Lower West » 19 Feb 2020 00:07

SCIAG
Zip
Greatwesternline Since Bowen started he has had a hooneymoon period though.

You would expect him to have a good three of four games where the players play better than average, as they have a new boss to impress.

Adjusting for that, is it that impressive? It is solid.

Next season he won't have a honeymoon period. And given the sums we spent last summer he is unlikely to find his squad materially improving. It might need some sales to avoid FFP rearing its head again which i'm sure it will.

He will have to improve on this season just to keep still. Maybe he can do that. Its possible. I'm not sure it was worth throwing a new contract at him within a few months of being hired.


There is no guarantee of a honeymoon period for any manager so he should be judged on his record to date which is good, Whether he can maintain or even better that remains to be seen but he deserves credit to date.

Yeah pretty sure the whole concept is folklore, like the MOTM curse or second season syndrome.


All managers deserve time. Since dispensing with the Reading Way. We've been bang disappointing. Every manager wanting to start from scratch with a roll of the money dice. Perhaps less money is the way forward.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 19 Feb 2020 08:44

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Excellent - thank you.


Table misses off the Preston win in his first game

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables/co ... -and-away/

Makes us 7th - 1 point outside the top 6.


Ah wow. So in other words his appointment has been something of a revelation you could say.


But a lot of those games we got 3 points in since Bowen came were games in which we were better than the opposition and won the game. We simply played less of those teams in Gomes' stint.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 19 Feb 2020 09:49

2 world wars, 1 world cup
paultheroyal
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Table misses off the Preston win in his first game

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables/co ... -and-away/

Makes us 7th - 1 point outside the top 6.


Ah wow. So in other words his appointment has been something of a revelation you could say.


But a lot of those games we got 3 points in since Bowen came were games in which we were better than the opposition and won the game. We simply played less of those teams in Gomes' stint.


We played Charlton, Blackburn, Sheff Weds at home and lost to them under Gomes. Cardiff at home wasn’t esp tough

Also a terrible middlesboro away, along with very winnable games at Hull, Hudders and Bristol City

It wasn’t a particularly hard start at all and certainly no harder than what Bowen has played against

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Lower West » 19 Feb 2020 23:30

2 world wars, 1 world cup
paultheroyal
Stranded
Table misses off the Preston win in his first game

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables/co ... -and-away/

Makes us 7th - 1 point outside the top 6.


Ah wow. So in other words his appointment has been something of a revelation you could say.


But a lot of those games we got 3 points in since Bowen came were games in which we were better than the opposition and won the game. We simply played less of those teams in Gomes' stint.


Gomes had preseason to prepare the team for the season ahead. He decided to sideline a number of players. Without whom under Bowen we wouldn't have accumulated points or won games.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 20 Feb 2020 09:18

Agreed guys.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 08:34

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Ah wow. So in other words his appointment has been something of a revelation you could say.


But a lot of those games we got 3 points in since Bowen came were games in which we were better than the opposition and won the game. We simply played less of those teams in Gomes' stint.


Gomes had preseason to prepare the team for the season ahead. He decided to sideline a number of players. Without whom under Bowen we wouldn't have accumulated points or won games.


I'm all for commending what Bowen has done since coming in but let's not rewrite history.

Pre-season preparation was spent trying to offload players before we could bring anyone else in because of the FFP ( self imposed? )transfer embargo We couldn't get the manager's number 1 target (Oliveira) in at all because of this. Pre-season was pretty much done by the time we made the vast majority of our signings and the eventual net spend reflected that desperation. Pele/Rafael/Boye/Puscas/Joao all came in after the season had started.

It's pure speculation of course but not beyond the realms of possibility but had McCleary and Gunter moved on in the way Mannone/McNulty/Meyler etc did last January (which allowed us to bring in the players who ultimately kept us up ) then we could be looking at a different Gomes team this season.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate a little here but McCleary has only really been a bit part player anyway whilst the re introduction of Gunter has meant us selling a very promising Academy Right back to a team only one level below who'd seen enough of him when he played against them to make us an offer. Howe may have been this season's breakthrough player like Rinomhota last season. On another thread people happily bemoan Stam for allowing Fosu/Stacey/Dickie to leave and saying we shouldn't look back Re: Barrow yet Howe had been as involved in the 1st team as much as those aforementioned players.

McCleary and Gunter are still perfectly decent players but they're on better than "perfectly decent" wages which is why no-one offered them deals which they felt they could accept. They knew what staying at Reading was likely to entail and chose to sit it out and take the money which is totally their prerogative . They'll no doubt be more than happy that they did but it does make me smile when people talk about how appallingly they were treated. Yes I get they've been here for a decade but there are some crying over their treatment who spent most of that decade criticising them.

They weren't chained to radiators at gunpoint, they had options . Turns out they made the right choices for them. Fair Play.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by WestYorksRoyal » 21 Feb 2020 08:41

I agree Gomes was harshly treated; to say he had a preseason is simply not true given the upheaval. But I'm not convinced he'd have turned it around like Bowen has. We looked decent in possession and going forward under Gomes, but we conceded easy goals. We were easy to play against. That stopped on day 1 with Bowen, and hasn't returned.

At the time I thought the sacking was harsh, but hindsight has proved it the right decision. I expect we'd have seen the odd awesome attacking performance under Gomes, but not the defensive consistency and ability to grind out points we have now.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Westwood52 » 21 Feb 2020 09:27

We would be in the dead mans zone if Gomes had stayed.He was trying to play “Barcelona” style football,and because he had no experience of Championship football;didn’t understand what he was up against.Ironically he might have been ok in the Prem.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 21 Feb 2020 09:35

I don't get a lot of joy out of criticising Gomes, and he was the right man for the job last year, but I've also little doubt it was the correct decision to sack him when we did - and I was quite vocal about saying it at the time

He certainly wasn't helped by the 'embargo' but sidelining Gunter, McCleary and Baldock before getting replacements in really wasn't the brightest thing to do. Maybe he'd been told others were coming in, but even then he should have still kept them within camp until it was absolutely confirmed. The Baldock one I found particularly bizarre - he would have worked well in Gomes system alongside Joao or Puscas

There was a clear change in attitude once Bowen took over - much tougher, and as Bowen loves to say 'nastier'. Without that change, I'd have been very concerned about relegation. I felt a lot of Gomes' tactics were a little idealistic - looked great on the training ground, but difficult to repeat match after match in the champ

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 11:13

Hound I don't get a lot of joy out of criticising Gomes, and he was the right man for the job last year, but I've also little doubt it was the correct decision to sack him when we did - and I was quite vocal about saying it at the time

He certainly wasn't helped by the 'embargo' but sidelining Gunter, McCleary and Baldock before getting replacements in really wasn't the brightest thing to do. Maybe he'd been told others were coming in, but even then he should have still kept them within camp until it was absolutely confirmed. The Baldock one I found particularly bizarre - he would have worked well in Gomes system alongside Joao or Puscas

There was a clear change in attitude once Bowen took over - much tougher, and as Bowen loves to say 'nastier'. Without that change, I'd have been very concerned about relegation. I felt a lot of Gomes' tactics were a little idealistic - looked great on the training ground, but difficult to repeat match after match in the champ


The point was, pre-season we couldn't fund the replacements until those players were gone.

I don't think Gomes can claim to have been harshly treated. His results dictated that as far as modern football is , he was a dead man walking. I'm just wary of people dismissing a pre-season where he was pretty much hamstrung by the financial situation and had to make calls about certain players as the above based on that. He was quite clear that it was his preference to work with a younger , smaller squad. Everyone should have known what they were buying into.

After that great week (Cardiff Home, West Brom & Huddersfield away). 1 goal conceded and 7 points we weren't talking about defensive frailties or playing styles. Then he lost Miazga who made that system work and never found a working formula. He also had a lot of new players that didn't have a pre-season with us and needed time to settle in.

Likewise Bowen had a great formula which fell apart when Joao got injured and until Saturday hadn't found a way around that either.

As I said at the time I liked the appointment of Bowen and believe he's the right man for us at the moment. However it's clearly easy to forget the circumstances which surrounded a lot of the Gomes decisions people now find questionable.


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Re: Bowen Out.

by Lower West » 21 Feb 2020 12:10

Hound I don't get a lot of joy out of criticising Gomes, and he was the right man for the job last year, but I've also little doubt it was the correct decision to sack him when we did - and I was quite vocal about saying it at the time



The combined contribution from the loanees was the turning point last season. Not least having a class keeper.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 21 Feb 2020 12:11

Vision
The point was, pre-season we couldn't fund the replacements until those players were gone.



Yes, however, thats undoubtedly quite common in football. They are still professionals, you keep them involved and ready for action when needed, and if someone had come in, all the better.

Publicly sidelining them just made it look like we'd take anything to get rid of them, and upset the players themselves as well

Not a case of having a load of sympathy for Gunter and co, its just the practicalities of what Gomes did was wrong. It'd have been interesting to see what would have happened had we not had that last minute splurge mind you

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Re: Bowen Out.

by URZZZZ » 21 Feb 2020 12:14

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The point was, pre-season we couldn't fund the replacements until those players were gone.



Yes, however, thats undoubtedly quite common in football. They are still professionals, you keep them involved and ready for action when needed, and if someone had come in, all the better.

Publicly sidelining them just made it look like we'd take anything to get rid of them, and upset the players themselves as well

Not a case of having a load of sympathy for Gunter and co, its just the practicalities of what Gomes did was wrong. It'd have been interesting to see what would have happened had we not had that last minute splurge mind you


I agree here

Every manager has their own ethos and way of taking the club forward and I sympathise with his thoughts that they weren’t going to fit in, whilst not necessarily agreeing. However, you treat them as humans and not as prisoners, which IMO was his worst mistake. You’d have thought Gunter and McCleary would have close ties with players at the club who wouldn’t exactly be enthusiastic at the way they’d been treated

In addition, I also wouldn’t have sold Kelly in pre season but I know I’m in a small minority here so won’t dwell too much on that. However, selling him for nothing, whichever way you look at him, was really poor

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Lower West » 21 Feb 2020 12:22

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Hound After that great week (Cardiff Home, West Brom & Huddersfield away). 1 goal conceded and 7 points we weren't talking about defensive frailties or playing styles.


Having watched every minute of all 3 games. More questions than answers still remained. The squad wasn't up to the style that Gomes was trying to impose.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 21 Feb 2020 12:27

URZZZZ
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The point was, pre-season we couldn't fund the replacements until those players were gone.



Yes, however, thats undoubtedly quite common in football. They are still professionals, you keep them involved and ready for action when needed, and if someone had come in, all the better.

Publicly sidelining them just made it look like we'd take anything to get rid of them, and upset the players themselves as well

Not a case of having a load of sympathy for Gunter and co, its just the practicalities of what Gomes did was wrong. It'd have been interesting to see what would have happened had we not had that last minute splurge mind you


I agree here

Every manager has their own ethos and way of taking the club forward and I sympathise with his thoughts that they weren’t going to fit in, whilst not necessarily agreeing. However, you treat them as humans and not as prisoners, which IMO was his worst mistake. You’d have thought Gunter and McCleary would have close ties with players at the club who wouldn’t exactly be enthusiastic at the way they’d been treated

In addition, I also wouldn’t have sold Kelly in pre season but I know I’m in a small minority here so won’t dwell too much on that. However, selling him for nothing, whichever way you look at him, was really poor


I think Kelly was very much a case of getting his wages off the books. We'd do the same now for Aluko, and I expect would have for Gunter/McCleary.

in saying that Gomes clearly didn't fancy him

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Vision » 21 Feb 2020 13:03

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Hound I don't get a lot of joy out of criticising Gomes, and he was the right man for the job last year, but I've also little doubt it was the correct decision to sack him when we did - and I was quite vocal about saying it at the time



The combined contribution from the loanees was the turning point last season. Not least having a class keeper.


Which was in part financed because a decision was made very quickly by the new management that Mannone/McNulty/Meyler etc were not required and were told exactly that.

I doubt very much if we'd have got all of them if not. 2 or 3 at a push.

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Re: Bowen Out.

by Hound » 21 Feb 2020 13:11

Vision
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Hound I don't get a lot of joy out of criticising Gomes, and he was the right man for the job last year, but I've also little doubt it was the correct decision to sack him when we did - and I was quite vocal about saying it at the time



The combined contribution from the loanees was the turning point last season. Not least having a class keeper.


Which was in part financed because a decision was made very quickly by the new management that Mannone/McNulty/Meyler etc were not required and were told exactly that.

I doubt very much if we'd have got all of them if not. 2 or 3 at a push.


I can't remember exactly, but didnt we sign all the loanees before we got rid of that motley bunch? And apparently the loanees didnt cost us a penny (though slight sceptical about that)

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