BFTG Sheff U FB

174 posts
User avatar
RoyalBlue
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 10370
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 22:39
Location: Developed a pathological hatred of snakes on 14/10/19

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by RoyalBlue » 06 Mar 2020 10:12

facaldaqui
bcubed
Norfolk Royal
I agree. When I was a kid I spent years practising kicking a ball against a brick wall at my home in an attempt to make my weaker left foot match the abilities of the right foot. If only modern players had the same determination to improve.

Eventually I succeeded and I learned to kick as well with my left foot as my right. Didn't alter the fact that I was crap with both feet of course.


Me too

And I reckon I could cross the ball with my left foot to a reasonable standard. Certainly wouldn't keep coming back on to my right foot as most modern players do.

Drives me nuts because if I could do it why can't these guys, who are, after all, doing nothing else but play and practise football?


I'm sure they grew up practising two footed too and could run rings round all the two-footed Hob Nobbers while wearing a barnacle-encrusted clog on their right foot. But it's about fine margins, and I guess they'd often rather be accurate with their right foot than risk a lower accuracy level pass or shot with their left. But there was definitely one glaring opportunity for Swift to shoot with his left which he frustratingly declined.


OK, I know even the mention of a female footballer will drive the cavemen on here nuts but Fara Williams has excellent ability with both feet. I've seen her score some great goals with both feet as well as being completely happy to strike a dead ball with either foot depending on the situation.

User avatar
9165
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 07 Jul 2004 20:18
Location: Wantage

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by 9165 » 06 Mar 2020 12:50

Glad I seem to have started an intelligent debate about 2 footedness! I am like most, right footed but just about competent on my left. I have a mate who is right footed naturally but practised so much on his left that it became his preferred foot. Over to you, John and Ovie.......!

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7535
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by NewCorkSeth » 06 Mar 2020 13:04

RoyalBlue
facaldaqui
bcubed
Me too

And I reckon I could cross the ball with my left foot to a reasonable standard. Certainly wouldn't keep coming back on to my right foot as most modern players do.

Drives me nuts because if I could do it why can't these guys, who are, after all, doing nothing else but play and practise football?


I'm sure they grew up practising two footed too and could run rings round all the two-footed Hob Nobbers while wearing a barnacle-encrusted clog on their right foot. But it's about fine margins, and I guess they'd often rather be accurate with their right foot than risk a lower accuracy level pass or shot with their left. But there was definitely one glaring opportunity for Swift to shoot with his left which he frustratingly declined.


OK, I know even the mention of a female footballer will drive the cavemen on here nuts but Fara Williams has excellent ability with both feet. I've seen her score some great goals with both feet as well as being completely happy to strike a dead ball with either foot depending on the situation.

A woman?!?!?!

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5391
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 18:36
Location: Shite little island soon to be sick man of Europe again and claim our rightful place as USA's bitch.

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 06 Mar 2020 13:18

RoyalBlue
facaldaqui
bcubed
Me too

And I reckon I could cross the ball with my left foot to a reasonable standard. Certainly wouldn't keep coming back on to my right foot as most modern players do.

Drives me nuts because if I could do it why can't these guys, who are, after all, doing nothing else but play and practise football?


I'm sure they grew up practising two footed too and could run rings round all the two-footed Hob Nobbers while wearing a barnacle-encrusted clog on their right foot. But it's about fine margins, and I guess they'd often rather be accurate with their right foot than risk a lower accuracy level pass or shot with their left. But there was definitely one glaring opportunity for Swift to shoot with his left which he frustratingly declined.


OK, I know even the mention of a female footballer will drive the cavemen on here nuts but Fara Williams has excellent ability with both feet. I've seen her score some great goals with both feet as well as being completely happy to strike a dead ball with either foot depending on the situation.


Isn't that just because she probably doesn't know her left from her right?

User avatar
tidus_mi2
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4008
Joined: 15 Jun 2012 15:24

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by tidus_mi2 » 06 Mar 2020 13:54

9165 Glad I seem to have started an intelligent debate about 2 footedness! I am like most, right footed but just about competent on my left. I have a mate who is right footed naturally but practised so much on his left that it became his preferred foot. Over to you, John and Ovie.......!

I'm struggling to see it as an intelligent debate, you're a bunch of guys saying because you forced yourselves to practice with your weaker foot pro footballers should be able to do the same.

If it were that simple every footballer would be able to play with both feet, the reality is that none of you know what footballers have to do to reach the standard they are at and maybe, perfecting your weaker foot isn't deemed a practical use of time.


User avatar
facaldaqui
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1933
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 05:10

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by facaldaqui » 06 Mar 2020 14:42

tidus_mi2
9165 Glad I seem to have started an intelligent debate about 2 footedness! I am like most, right footed but just about competent on my left. I have a mate who is right footed naturally but practised so much on his left that it became his preferred foot. Over to you, John and Ovie.......!

I'm struggling to see it as an intelligent debate, you're a bunch of guys saying because you forced yourselves to practice with your weaker foot pro footballers should be able to do the same.

If it were that simple every footballer would be able to play with both feet, the reality is that none of you know what footballers have to do to reach the standard they are at and maybe, perfecting your weaker foot isn't deemed a practical use of time.


It doesn't need to be a specific use of time--just means consciously trying to correct the instinct to use the right foot when it's more logical to use the left, and doing this in practice games, training, and kicking against a wall. I'd assume all pro footballers did this from a young age--it's basic.

*

But I agree with you it's not just as as simple as practising. I checked a Jon Swift highlights video, and he does score with his left--but only at shorter range. I think he's worked out how far from the goal he can trust his left, so he plays the percentages by passing rather than shooting when the ball comes to his left foot at a certain distance from goal. If the ball comes to his right at those distances, he will shoot, often superbly.

Another thing that's not simple is how our brains are wired from birth. Some people are very right- or left-footed; some less so; and a few are ambidextrous. No matter how much you practise, you can't change your natural bias. I'm right footed and did practise with my left from a young age, always preferring to play on the left in football. I'm not going to pat myself on the back about that, as my right-sidedness was never total. I could write and draw with my left hand reasonably well as a kid; I always jumped left foot first at high jump; and I use a computer mouse with my left hand, for some reason. So maybe it was easier for me to learn to kick with my left foot than for someone with more completely right-sided brain wiring?

SCIAG
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4851
Joined: 17 Jun 2008 17:43
Location: Liburd for England

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by SCIAG » 06 Mar 2020 22:23

2 world wars, 1 world cup
NewCorkSeth
2 world wars, 1 world cup
So is this why we set up zonal marking, which is what we were using according to the FB commentary?

Isn't this what we've sorted out and why our defence improved massively when Gomes left?

Isn't marking as simple as just sticking with your man no matter how much you think you're being confused. That's what I was taught and shite as I may be as a footballer I piss people off with how effectively I mark them to the point of them swearing at me or trying to hack my legs off to leave them alone a lot of the time.

I don't get why we'd shy away from man marking to go zonal, no matter the ilk of the opposition.

I prefer zonal marking in general.


URGomesAICMFP

Zonal marking is what nearly everyone has used nearly all the time for at least fifteen years.

These days you only really see man marking:
- At set pieces
- To deal with a specific threat (e.g. Jorginho under Sarri)
- As an extremely defensive strategy aimed at securing a 0-0 against a better side - and even then you'll probably have a sweeper. It was a long time ago, but in that infamous 0-0 against Man United I think Ingimarsson was "free" to pick up anyone who escaped.

In most situations zonal marking is just utterly dominant. The big guy getting the leap on a full back is maybe a situation where temporary man marking could help, but these days you don't seem to get as many teams set up for strong wing play.

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5391
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 18:36
Location: Shite little island soon to be sick man of Europe again and claim our rightful place as USA's bitch.

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 23 Mar 2020 11:54

SCIAG
2 world wars, 1 world cup
NewCorkSeth I prefer zonal marking in general.


URGomesAICMFP

Zonal marking is what nearly everyone has used nearly all the time for at least fifteen years.

These days you only really see man marking:
- At set pieces
- To deal with a specific threat (e.g. Jorginho under Sarri)
- As an extremely defensive strategy aimed at securing a 0-0 against a better side - and even then you'll probably have a sweeper. It was a long time ago, but in that infamous 0-0 against Man United I think Ingimarsson was "free" to pick up anyone who escaped.

In most situations zonal marking is just utterly dominant. The big guy getting the leap on a full back is maybe a situation where temporary man marking could help, but these days you don't seem to get as many teams set up for strong wing play.


Interesting and it matches my followup reading on the subject (as a lay person).

So why all this uproar about Gomes and his zonal stuff? Not just here but BBCRB going nuts about it. I guess they're talking set pieces?

I played on the wing so tracking back with the other winger is easy. Mark him like crazy when they have the ball, lose him when we have it. I've never played central defence (except when I was 10) so appreciate things are different there.

User avatar
John Madejski's Wallet
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 14867
Joined: 10 Apr 2005 00:22
Location: Anyone who lives within their means shows a serious lack of imagination

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by John Madejski's Wallet » 23 Mar 2020 12:01

SCIAG
2 world wars, 1 world cup
NewCorkSeth I prefer zonal marking in general.


URGomesAICMFP

Zonal marking is what nearly everyone has used nearly all the time for at least fifteen years.

These days you only really see man marking:
- At set pieces
- To deal with a specific threat (e.g. Jorginho under Sarri)
- As an extremely defensive strategy aimed at securing a 0-0 against a better side - and even then you'll probably have a sweeper. It was a long time ago, but in that infamous 0-0 against Man United I think Ingimarsson was "free" to pick up anyone who escaped.

In most situations zonal marking is just utterly dominant. The big guy getting the leap on a full back is maybe a situation where temporary man marking could help, but these days you don't seem to get as many teams set up for strong wing play.

When people complain about zonal marking, they general mean from set pieces......and that's when it's rubbish.


SCIAG
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4851
Joined: 17 Jun 2008 17:43
Location: Liburd for England

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by SCIAG » 23 Mar 2020 19:10

John Madejski's Wallet
SCIAG
2 world wars, 1 world cup
URGomesAICMFP

Zonal marking is what nearly everyone has used nearly all the time for at least fifteen years.

These days you only really see man marking:
- At set pieces
- To deal with a specific threat (e.g. Jorginho under Sarri)
- As an extremely defensive strategy aimed at securing a 0-0 against a better side - and even then you'll probably have a sweeper. It was a long time ago, but in that infamous 0-0 against Man United I think Ingimarsson was "free" to pick up anyone who escaped.

In most situations zonal marking is just utterly dominant. The big guy getting the leap on a full back is maybe a situation where temporary man marking could help, but these days you don't seem to get as many teams set up for strong wing play.

When people complain about zonal marking, they general mean from set pieces......and that's when it's rubbish.

That’s the only time zonal and man marking are comparably effective. As far as I’m aware there’s no real evidence that one system is better than the other. Both require individuals to do their jobs properly, both have weaknesses (man marking can lead to your best defenders being in stupid places, while zonal marking can lead to dangerous players in unconventional positions being unmarked e.g. Matejovsky against Liverpool) and both concede goals at similar rates.

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7535
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by NewCorkSeth » 25 Mar 2020 10:52

John Madejski's Wallet
SCIAG
2 world wars, 1 world cup
URGomesAICMFP

Zonal marking is what nearly everyone has used nearly all the time for at least fifteen years.

These days you only really see man marking:
- At set pieces
- To deal with a specific threat (e.g. Jorginho under Sarri)
- As an extremely defensive strategy aimed at securing a 0-0 against a better side - and even then you'll probably have a sweeper. It was a long time ago, but in that infamous 0-0 against Man United I think Ingimarsson was "free" to pick up anyone who escaped.

In most situations zonal marking is just utterly dominant. The big guy getting the leap on a full back is maybe a situation where temporary man marking could help, but these days you don't seem to get as many teams set up for strong wing play.

When people complain about zonal marking, they general mean from set pieces......and that's when it's rubbish.

Bollox. For corners its perfect. Man marking from corners is just asking for trouble. I'll admit it is a bit more difficult for non direct free kicks.

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5391
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 18:36
Location: Shite little island soon to be sick man of Europe again and claim our rightful place as USA's bitch.

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 25 Mar 2020 11:23

NewCorkSeth
John Madejski's Wallet
SCIAG Zonal marking is what nearly everyone has used nearly all the time for at least fifteen years.

These days you only really see man marking:
- At set pieces
- To deal with a specific threat (e.g. Jorginho under Sarri)
- As an extremely defensive strategy aimed at securing a 0-0 against a better side - and even then you'll probably have a sweeper. It was a long time ago, but in that infamous 0-0 against Man United I think Ingimarsson was "free" to pick up anyone who escaped.

In most situations zonal marking is just utterly dominant. The big guy getting the leap on a full back is maybe a situation where temporary man marking could help, but these days you don't seem to get as many teams set up for strong wing play.

When people complain about zonal marking, they general mean from set pieces......and that's when it's rubbish.

Bollox. For corners its perfect. Man marking from corners is just asking for trouble. I'll admit it is a bit more difficult for non direct free kicks.


Just asking, I have never played in defence and the thought does my head in. Wing is nice and easy. Can dip in and out of a game when you feel like it 8) :oops:

So you're a defender somewhere in the 6 yard box and there's shit loads of people all over the place. WTF is your zone? A 3 x 3 patch of grass? 6x6? You have 3 big chaps running and jumping at you in your little square of grass--... which one do you pick up? More than one person in your zone.... Urgh my head hurts.

It'd make more sense to say "right, there's 10 of us in the 18 yard box. 8 of them in the box. Each man take a man and stay on them with a couple spare.

^^^ you can tell by the fact I'm asking that I am not pretending to be a defence footy-guru so don't knock me for getting it wrong! Any coaches, ex-players, etc here, please explain!

SCIAG
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4851
Joined: 17 Jun 2008 17:43
Location: Liburd for England

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by SCIAG » 25 Mar 2020 19:50

There is no single “way”, but if you’ll forgive me for simplifying, if you’re zonally marking at a set piece then generally you’re not going to be too bothered about “the men” and just focus on winning the ball. If there are two men in your zone then just beat them both.

Have you been to a Reading match where we’ve used zonal marking at set pieces? That gives you a pretty good idea of how it is typically set up - five men in a row on the six yard line, another row in front of them, and then one or two players on the edge of the area to contest the second ball and attempt to counter attack. First player is there to deal with short, low, or shit corners, fifth man stops the classic long corner for Pearce to head back across goal, middle three are doing the bulk of the aerial stuff.

Good introductory video here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8gDOygNWv50

(The mixed system Lucas talks about at the end is less effective than either pure man-to-man or pure zonal, but is by far the most popular system, particularly at grassroots level)

There are some good longer videos on YT if you want to learn more. Tifo Football and Michael Cox are both worth checking out.


User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7535
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: BFTG Sheff U FB

by NewCorkSeth » 26 Mar 2020 08:56

2 world wars, 1 world cup
NewCorkSeth
John Madejski's Wallet When people complain about zonal marking, they general mean from set pieces......and that's when it's rubbish.

Bollox. For corners its perfect. Man marking from corners is just asking for trouble. I'll admit it is a bit more difficult for non direct free kicks.


Just asking, I have never played in defence and the thought does my head in. Wing is nice and easy. Can dip in and out of a game when you feel like it 8) :oops:

So you're a defender somewhere in the 6 yard box and there's shit loads of people all over the place. WTF is your zone? A 3 x 3 patch of grass? 6x6? You have 3 big chaps running and jumping at you in your little square of grass--... which one do you pick up? More than one person in your zone.... Urgh my head hurts.

It'd make more sense to say "right, there's 10 of us in the 18 yard box. 8 of them in the box. Each man take a man and stay on them with a couple spare.

^^^ you can tell by the fact I'm asking that I am not pretending to be a defence footy-guru so don't knock me for getting it wrong! Any coaches, ex-players, etc here, please explain!

I am no expert but how I see it is players are designated high percentage areas to mark. For example there should always be a player on the front and back post who's job is to rush out onto an incoming ball or stay back to block a shot from deeper.

Another instance we frequently see is the position Swift usually takes up. He stands outside of the pack, a few yards off the near post to head away low, whipped crosses. He's not marking anyone but a high percentage of corners hit that area and players with low aerial ability or less strong players like Swift can easily deal with these kinds of balls.

My main issue with man marking from corners is players with low concentration lose their man but those same players can easily mark a space they don't have to worry as much about the movement of attackers, just stay in front of them. Any balls that go over them become the next defnders job.

174 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 167 guests

It is currently 11 Jul 2020 02:11