Finance

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Zip
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Re: Finance

by Zip » 04 May 2020 20:59

Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.

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Re: Finance

by Nameless » 04 May 2020 21:14

Snowflake Royal
Hound its an odd one that 7k limit.

I can see the benefits, but how does it work if a team gets relegated from the Premier, and a player is on 50k a week?

Also, if any sort of normality is returned, nearly all players will be on 7k. Where is the motivation to push yourself for a bigger wage? Or will bonuses/signing on fees etc still be allowed?

Easy answer to that is contract clause.

Any player contract would need to stipulate that upon relegation they're wage must be cut to at least the maximum allowed for that league. As for incentive, at the levels they're paid the money is pretty meaningless now. The incentive is to push yourself to work at the highest level possible. And promotions will still equal pay rises. Plus there's no reason clubs would pay everyone the same. It would give them some negotiation power.

Although I do think £7k might be a bit low. It is still £360k a year though. 5 years of that take home what, £200k? That's £1m. Average UK wage what? £27k? So take home £20k? That would be somewhere in the ball park of 50 years average salary unless I'e totally ballsed up my maths.

So the can't get other jobs and short career argument is already gone.


That solution is a non starter. Players would just cross the clause out. Or they would insert a different one allowing them to opt out of the contract on relegation.
As for money being ‘meaningless’ how come players are constantly moving clubs for more money ! If money was meaningless the transfer market would look very different. It’s pretty clear that amongst players being the best paid is hugely important for most, , probablyon a par with how many medals you have.

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Re: Finance

by Hound » 04 May 2020 21:57

Zip
Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.


Yeah but you are going down a rabbit hole with that discussion really. Compared to other areas of society who earn plenty - I dunno Bankers maybe - they should be earning a lot more

I mean they have tons of pressure, need to be super talented, short career, and indirectly probably employ an awful lot of people

I just find the footballer bashing a bit dull really. Obvs some of the wages have got ridiculously inflated but it’s bloody tough to get where they are

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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 04 May 2020 22:00

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Hound its an odd one that 7k limit.

I can see the benefits, but how does it work if a team gets relegated from the Premier, and a player is on 50k a week?

Also, if any sort of normality is returned, nearly all players will be on 7k. Where is the motivation to push yourself for a bigger wage? Or will bonuses/signing on fees etc still be allowed?

Easy answer to that is contract clause.

Any player contract would need to stipulate that upon relegation they're wage must be cut to at least the maximum allowed for that league. As for incentive, at the levels they're paid the money is pretty meaningless now. The incentive is to push yourself to work at the highest level possible. And promotions will still equal pay rises. Plus there's no reason clubs would pay everyone the same. It would give them some negotiation power.

Although I do think £7k might be a bit low. It is still £360k a year though. 5 years of that take home what, £200k? That's £1m. Average UK wage what? £27k? So take home £20k? That would be somewhere in the ball park of 50 years average salary unless I'e totally ballsed up my maths.

So the can't get other jobs and short career argument is already gone.


That solution is a non starter. Players would just cross the clause out. Or they would insert a different one allowing them to opt out of the contract on relegation.
As for money being ‘meaningless’ how come players are constantly moving clubs for more money ! If money was meaningless the transfer market would look very different. It’s pretty clear that amongst players being the best paid is hugely important for most, , probablyon a par with how many medals you have.

Then they simply don't get a contract. No one should be able to sign a contract that would put a club in breach of League rules should the circumstances occur.

Money is simply a way of keeping score about who is best, the actual amount is meaningless. They just want the most. Could be 5k, 7k or 100k a week.

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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 04 May 2020 22:01

Hound
Zip
Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.


Yeah but you are going down a rabbit hole with that discussion really. Compared to other areas of society who earn plenty - I dunno Bankers maybe - they should be earning a lot more

I mean they have tons of pressure, need to be super talented, short career, and indirectly probably employ an awful lot of people

I just find the footballer bashing a bit dull really. Obvs some of the wages have got ridiculously inflated but it’s bloody tough to get where they are
The bankers can fuk off an all.


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Re: Finance

by Zip » 04 May 2020 22:17

Hound
Zip
Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.


Yeah but you are going down a rabbit hole with that discussion really. Compared to other areas of society who earn plenty - I dunno Bankers maybe - they should be earning a lot more

I mean they have tons of pressure, need to be super talented, short career, and indirectly probably employ an awful lot of people

I just find the footballer bashing a bit dull really. Obvs some of the wages have got ridiculously inflated but it’s bloody tough to get where they are


It has to be affordable Houndy. Clubs have racked up millions in debt by paying ludicrous wages. That has to change. Players have had it very good for a long time. It’s not player bashing either. I have no problem with players being well paid and £350,000 is very much that. We are talking about the second tier here with players millionaires at a young age.
They are not even elite top flight players. It has to change. Players are paid too much. Their pay has to be related to the club’s ability to pay them whilst remaining financially solvent.

As for the bankers bit please refer to Ian.

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Re: Finance

by tmesis » 04 May 2020 23:47

Zip
Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt.

And they would be, if clubs didn't universally overspend. People can say players are greedy, but if clubs actually stuck to their budgets, wages would come down.

Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.

No chance at all. Clubs have always overspent, and will always continue to do so as long as there's nothing to stop them. There's absolutely no way in the world that players will start accepting lower wages just because nurses aren't paid much.

Footballers aren't even that well paid compared to some actors or pop singers. Ed Sheeran makes about £2 million a week, I believe.

Footballer and other celebrities aren't paid huge amounts because we think they are so valuable to the country. They are paid a huge amount because a lot of us spend a lot of money on their product.

Nurses, on the other hand, aren't in a money-making business. We can praise them all we want, but Sky is not going to pay £500 million for live coverage of nursing. Tesco are not going to start paying till operators £40,000 a year. Postal workers will not get 10 million followers on Twitter.

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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 05 May 2020 08:26

Actually there's studies that show if you change business model to pay your employees more it significantly increases productivity and buy in and therefore revenue.

For example there's the tech company in the US where the owner pays everyone at least $70k a year. His business doubled as a result.

Pay enough to take money concerns off the table and it usually results in a happier workforce. Big pay incentives for performance are also counterproductive in almost any role and lead to worse performance.

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Re: Finance

by SCIAG » 05 May 2020 08:32

Hound
Zip
Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.


Yeah but you are going down a rabbit hole with that discussion really. Compared to other areas of society who earn plenty - I dunno Bankers maybe - they should be earning a lot more

I mean they have tons of pressure, need to be super talented, short career, and indirectly probably employ an awful lot of people

I just find the footballer bashing a bit dull really. Obvs some of the wages have got ridiculously inflated but it’s bloody tough to get where they are

Bankers get an unfair reputation. That job absolutely takes over your life and is incredibly high stress. They get paid so much because they do essential, high-skilled work that nobody would choose to do otherwise.

The people who are really stealing a living:

- Most agents, including estate agents.
- Any landlord whose profit outweighs the maintenance and improvements they make to their properties.
- Patent trolls.
- Inheritors of intellectual property.
- Anyone who wrote a song or book more than twenty years ago and is still claiming royalties.
- The recruitment industry.
- Lobbyists.

Essentially, people who, rather than adding value of their own, leech off the value created by others, or profit by stopping other people from adding value.

Footballers, on the other hand, get paid a lot because lots of people will pay to watch them. Capping their wages would just worsen the deadweight loss as that money gets redirected to owners, agents, and broadcasters and advertisers.


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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 05 May 2020 08:37

SCIAG
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Zip
When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.


Yeah but you are going down a rabbit hole with that discussion really. Compared to other areas of society who earn plenty - I dunno Bankers maybe - they should be earning a lot more

I mean they have tons of pressure, need to be super talented, short career, and indirectly probably employ an awful lot of people

I just find the footballer bashing a bit dull really. Obvs some of the wages have got ridiculously inflated but it’s bloody tough to get where they are

Bankers get an unfair reputation. That job absolutely takes over your life and is incredibly high stress. They get paid so much because they do essential, high-skilled work that nobody would choose to do otherwise.

The people who are really stealing a living:

- Most agents, including estate agents.
- Any landlord whose profit outweighs the maintenance and improvements they make to their properties.
- Patent trolls.
- Inheritors of intellectual property.
- Anyone who wrote a song or book more than twenty years ago and is still claiming royalties.
- The recruitment industry.
- Lobbyists.

Essentially, people who, rather than adding value of their own, leech off the value created by others, or profit by stopping other people from adding value.

Footballers, on the other hand, get paid a lot because lots of people will pay to watch them. Capping their wages would just worsen the deadweight loss as that money gets redirected to owners, agents, and broadcasters and advertisers.

Not if you introduce an agency to administer transfers and make players pay any private agents directly for services. Reverse the decision to allow money to be taken out of clubs and mandate certain spending levels on grass roots and return it to a proper football league without the evil PL stealing everything for itself.

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Re: Finance

by muirinho » 05 May 2020 09:31

Snowflake Royal Actually there's studies that show if you change business model to pay your employees more it significantly increases productivity and buy in and therefore revenue.

For example there's the tech company in the US where the owner pays everyone at least $70k a year. His business doubled as a result.

Pay enough to take money concerns off the table and it usually results in a happier workforce. Big pay incentives for performance are also counterproductive in almost any role and lead to worse performance.


There's also a study I've seen that basically says that one you earn a certain amount (probably the equivalent of that $70K!), that being paid more doesn't make you any more productive or happier.

If there's a salary cap, then players will no longer be able to use salary as a way of reflecting how valued they are. Ashley Cole didn't nearly crash his car because he didn't think he could live on 50K a week or whatever it was, it was because by not giving him what he wanted, the club were rejecting his value of himself.

If there's a cap, that kind of thinking won't come into it. Either you are good enough to be bought by a different league, operating on a higher salary cap, or you aren't.

Clubs would have to come up with different ways of showing players they are valued, rather than just throwing money at them.

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Re: Finance

by sandman » 05 May 2020 09:50

Scrap the anti competition scam known as FFP, tighten the fit and proper persons test with regular reviews of owners and their proof of funds along with their intentions.

FFP is just a way for traditionally big clubs to keep the status quo and remain unchallenged whilst letting associations and leagues pass the buck for their own failings at assessing owners before they take over a club.

You may still get a few surprises like Leicester and Sheffield United but they are and will increasingly become fewer and far between.

Owners should not be punished for investing in their clubs.

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Re: Finance

by Notts Royal » 05 May 2020 09:51

SCIAG
Hound
Zip
When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.


Yeah but you are going down a rabbit hole with that discussion really. Compared to other areas of society who earn plenty - I dunno Bankers maybe - they should be earning a lot more

I mean they have tons of pressure, need to be super talented, short career, and indirectly probably employ an awful lot of people

I just find the footballer bashing a bit dull really. Obvs some of the wages have got ridiculously inflated but it’s bloody tough to get where they are

Bankers get an unfair reputation. That job absolutely takes over your life and is incredibly high stress. They get paid so much because they do essential, high-skilled work that nobody would choose to do otherwise.

The people who are really stealing a living:

- Most agents, including estate agents.
- Any landlord whose profit outweighs the maintenance and improvements they make to their properties.
- Patent trolls.
- Inheritors of intellectual property.
- Anyone who wrote a song or book more than twenty years ago and is still claiming royalties.
- The recruitment industry.
- Lobbyists.

Essentially, people who, rather than adding value of their own, leech off the value created by others, or profit by stopping other people from adding value.

Footballers, on the other hand, get paid a lot because lots of people will pay to watch them. Capping their wages would just worsen the deadweight loss as that money gets redirected to owners, agents, and broadcasters and advertisers.


I think you’re missing the point here. Money won’t be redirected as it’s going to be considerably lower than it has been. We’re going to have to wait and see what the TV deals are going to be first and then it’ll filter down


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Re: Finance

by sandman » 05 May 2020 09:55

Manchester is a prime example of the failings of FFP as a whole. Who is the better run club? Is it the club whose owners have invested money into the infrastructure of not just the club and it's facilities but also the regeneration of the local area? Or is it the club full of debt, whose owners take huge amounts of money out of it every year?

According to financial ''fair play'' it is the second club who are run well and the first club are facing a two year ban from European competition.

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Re: Finance

by Bonzodog » 05 May 2020 09:59

There is a very good article in the Grauniad about EFL finances by Mark Palios of Tranmere.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... pfa-to-act

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Re: Finance

by Zip » 05 May 2020 11:21

Bonzodog There is a very good article in the Grauniad about EFL finances by Mark Palios of Tranmere.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... pfa-to-act


Completely agree with that article. There has to be change and it needs to be urgently implemented.

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Re: Finance

by Forbury Lion » 05 May 2020 11:46

Zip
Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.
If any of us compare our salaries to that of a carer then chances are we are, by comparison well rewarded - Does that mean we can afford to offer our employers some of it back? - probably not.

Remember, this isn't the players being asked to donate to the NHS or charitable causes (which I'm sure some of them have done/do regularly), This is about giving back to a business owned by a billionaire at the request of someone who is also on a comparably high salary who may well be paying some of them below market rate as it is..... instead of comparing their salaries to that of a carer, try comparing it to the income of other players/the club owners etc etc.

I personally don't think the situation was explained clearly enough to the players, Perhaps they will be financially at a loss by deferring payments? - Basically, this is the club trying to borrow money from players wages for free, Perhaps they are worried they may never see that money again, Maybe the owner can personally guarantee it, maybe even offer them an incentive to do it? Maybe not force everyone to do it/not do it/part do it (players are on different salaries and have different financial commitments, when you earn big money you might not want your parents working their selves to an early grave)

The James Harper BBC Berks podcast was an eye opener - How little they were earning and the fact his accountant was investing almost every penny of his for his pension/life after football leaving him with almost nothing in his pocket each week. This was a player who played for us in the Premier League. I imagine quite a few higher wages now though, but not all.

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Re: Finance

by Forbury Lion » 05 May 2020 11:52

In future, player wages may be a lower basic rate but with top ups linked to the number of games the team plays, ever time we play a game they get x more and also points (assuming prize money is allocated on a points basis to clubs).

Perhaps player wages in future should be paid directly by the league out of the TV revenue with them setting a budget for each club and the club deciding how to spend it?

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Re: Finance

by Snowflake Royal » 05 May 2020 12:10

Forbury Lion
Zip
Hound Yeah but come on - to be a champ footballer takes a hell of a lot more effort than a 27k p/a year generally. They are basically employed for the age of 8, deal with all sorts of pressure and disappointments, play in front of 30k knobheads calling your a pcunt and criticising your every move etc

Fine but then ensure every person who is elite in their field only earns that


When you think a carer probably earns about £15k a year I reckon a footballer playing at Championship level is well rewarded at £350k per annum. Besides they should be paid what a football club can pay them without getting into debt. Just maybe this virus will bring some much needed common sense into the game and society as well.
If any of us compare our salaries to that of a carer then chances are we are, by comparison well rewarded - Does that mean we can afford to offer our employers some of it back? - probably not.

Remember, this isn't the players being asked to donate to the NHS or charitable causes (which I'm sure some of them have done/do regularly), This is about giving back to a business owned by a billionaire at the request of someone who is also on a comparably high salary who may well be paying some of them below market rate as it is..... instead of comparing their salaries to that of a carer, try comparing it to the income of other players/the club owners etc etc.

I personally don't think the situation was explained clearly enough to the players, Perhaps they will be financially at a loss by deferring payments? - Basically, this is the club trying to borrow money from players wages for free, Perhaps they are worried they may never see that money again, Maybe the owner can personally guarantee it, maybe even offer them an incentive to do it? Maybe not force everyone to do it/not do it/part do it (players are on different salaries and have different financial commitments, when you earn big money you might not want your parents working their selves to an early grave)

The James Harper BBC Berks podcast was an eye opener - How little they were earning and the fact his accountant was investing almost every penny of his for his pension/life after football leaving him with almost nothing in his pocket each week. This was a player who played for us in the Premier League. I imagine quite a few higher wages now though, but not all.

Still don't believe that Harper story and if it is true it can only be because he was incredibly stupid and we took advantage.

I doubt many of us are earning many multiples of carer's salary Forbes,so tbh that whole post is hooey

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Re: Finance

by SCIAG » 05 May 2020 12:17

Snowflake Royal
SCIAG
Hound
Yeah but you are going down a rabbit hole with that discussion really. Compared to other areas of society who earn plenty - I dunno Bankers maybe - they should be earning a lot more

I mean they have tons of pressure, need to be super talented, short career, and indirectly probably employ an awful lot of people

I just find the footballer bashing a bit dull really. Obvs some of the wages have got ridiculously inflated but it’s bloody tough to get where they are

Bankers get an unfair reputation. That job absolutely takes over your life and is incredibly high stress. They get paid so much because they do essential, high-skilled work that nobody would choose to do otherwise.

The people who are really stealing a living:

- Most agents, including estate agents.
- Any landlord whose profit outweighs the maintenance and improvements they make to their properties.
- Patent trolls.
- Inheritors of intellectual property.
- Anyone who wrote a song or book more than twenty years ago and is still claiming royalties.
- The recruitment industry.
- Lobbyists.

Essentially, people who, rather than adding value of their own, leech off the value created by others, or profit by stopping other people from adding value.

Footballers, on the other hand, get paid a lot because lots of people will pay to watch them. Capping their wages would just worsen the deadweight loss as that money gets redirected to owners, agents, and broadcasters and advertisers.

Not if you introduce an agency to administer transfers and make players pay any private agents directly for services. Reverse the decision to allow money to be taken out of clubs and mandate certain spending levels on grass roots and return it to a proper football league without the evil PL stealing everything for itself.

We have tribunals setting fees for U24s who are out of contract. There seems to be a consensus that they set the fees far too low. Maybe you could address that with better rules but you’ll never have a better way of determining fees than the open market.

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