FFP? what?

Millsy
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FFP? what?

by Millsy » 27 Aug 2020 10:26

Excsue me if this is being discussed elsewhere - mods please delete or merge into appropriate post, but I thought it was a big deal...

Getting out of my monthly shower this morning I caught BBCRB talking about suspending FFP for a year or something and the implications this would have for RFC.

I didn't quite catch it all, but... wtf? If FFP is no longer an issue does that suddenly mean we sign Ejaria, we claw back players we've moved on, we splash the cash now? What's going on I'm beyond confused now.

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Re: FFP? what?

by tidus_mi2 » 27 Aug 2020 10:43

Millsy Excsue me if this is being discussed elsewhere - mods please delete or merge into appropriate post, but I thought it was a big deal...

Getting out of my monthly shower this morning I caught BBCRB talking about suspending FFP for a year or something and the implications this would have for RFC.

I didn't quite catch it all, but... wtf? If FFP is no longer an issue does that suddenly mean we sign Ejaria, we claw back players we've moved on, we splash the cash now? What's going on I'm beyond confused now.

We could, of course if we end up in the shit a few years down the line the EFL aren't going to look kindly on us. Also depends on how they do it, do they start fresh when they start it again or do we end up with a 3 year period of 17/18, 18/19 and 21/22?

FFP is a bit of a sham anyway that only benefits the bigger teams, I just feel there has to be a better way to protect teams than FFP.

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Re: FFP? what?

by Hound » 27 Aug 2020 10:51

After the Derby case - and in fact Sheff Weds, where they were basically charged for dodgy annual accounting rather than massively over inflating the price of their stadium, I'm really not sure FFP has any credibility any more

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Re: FFP? what?

by SpaghettiHoop » 27 Aug 2020 10:55

Never saw the point of stopping money coming into the game.

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Re: FFP? what?

by PieEater » 27 Aug 2020 11:51

The point is that FFP has no place in the context of the current climate. Owners will have to be subsidising clubs to keep them afloat as the matchday revenue stream has gone.

They can't compare fairly over a 3 year cycle when at least 1 of those years planned income has crashed whilst contractual commitments to pay players has remained.


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Re: FFP? what?

by Nameless » 27 Aug 2020 12:21

It’s been obvious that something has to change with FFP. You can’t expect clubs to break even when they have no revenue.
However it should not be an excuse for us not to get our finances in order.
If FFP is scrapped/suspended it takes away the threat of points deduction but we really should use the opportunity to run the club on a sensible basis. No FFP would allow the owners to wipe existing debts and inject capital if they wished.

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Re: FFP? what?

by Westwood52 » 27 Aug 2020 12:55

Listening to a Prem fanzine last night;apparently Messi is being paid a million pounds a week.You do wonder how Barcelona and Real Madrid avoid FFP.

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Re: FFP? what?

by Sutekh » 27 Aug 2020 13:46

Nameless It’s been obvious that something has to change with FFP. You can’t expect clubs to break even when they have no revenue.
However it should not be an excuse for us not to get our finances in order.
If FFP is scrapped/suspended it takes away the threat of points deduction but we really should use the opportunity to run the club on a sensible basis. No FFP would allow the owners to wipe existing debts and inject capital if they wished.


FFP is something that should be completely scrapped as all it does is help maintain the status quo, let alone the complexity involved with monitoring all the different aspects of a club’s accounts. Replacing it with the much mooted squad salary cap makes a lot more sense and would presumably be easier for both the FL and clubs to monitor and understand where they are within its limitations each season.

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Re: FFP? what?

by Franchise FC » 27 Aug 2020 16:25

Westwood52 Listening to a Prem fanzine last night;apparently Messi is being paid a million pounds a week.You do wonder how Barcelona and Real Madrid avoid FFP.

May be very different now with players getting a portion of 'image' rights, but the business plan for David Beckham's move the Real Madrid showed that they would make their money back without him playing a single game, based on worldwide shirt sales alone.

Messi is presumably considered a bigger name (not in letters obviously) than Beckham was then.


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Re: FFP? what?

by WestYorksRoyal » 27 Aug 2020 16:51

Sutekh
Nameless It’s been obvious that something has to change with FFP. You can’t expect clubs to break even when they have no revenue.
However it should not be an excuse for us not to get our finances in order.
If FFP is scrapped/suspended it takes away the threat of points deduction but we really should use the opportunity to run the club on a sensible basis. No FFP would allow the owners to wipe existing debts and inject capital if they wished.


FFP is something that should be completely scrapped as all it does is help maintain the status quo, let alone the complexity involved with monitoring all the different aspects of a club’s accounts. Replacing it with the much mooted squad salary cap makes a lot more sense and would presumably be easier for both the FL and clubs to monitor and understand where they are within its limitations each season.

What is the objective of FFP? Stop clubs spending beyond their means and screwing themselves/relying upon owners?

If that is the objective, it has clearly failed. If the Dais were to walk away now and take the stadium and training ground they own with them, we'd be oxf*rd. Yet we haven't breached FFP.

I'm supportive of regulation that makes clubs sustainable, and that will inevitably support the status quo as big clubs have more resources. But clearly the plight of Bolton and Bury shows the current framework needs improvement. That's before we consider the shitshow at Wigan.

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Re: FFP? what?

by SCIAG » 27 Aug 2020 17:32

Franchise FC
Westwood52 Listening to a Prem fanzine last night;apparently Messi is being paid a million pounds a week.You do wonder how Barcelona and Real Madrid avoid FFP.

May be very different now with players getting a portion of 'image' rights, but the business plan for David Beckham's move the Real Madrid showed that they would make their money back without him playing a single game, based on worldwide shirt sales alone.

Messi is presumably considered a bigger name (not in letters obviously) than Beckham was then.

It might have been possible for Beckham (although I doubt it - imagine most people who bought Beckham shirts did so instead of their usual Raul/Ronaldo/Zidane/Figo shirt) but no chance for Messi. Clubs only get 10-15% of shirt sales and don’t sell nearly enough. Good article here: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foo ... 56191.html

€1.5m a week, if shirts are €100 and the club gets 10%, would mean selling 7.8 million shirts a year. That is more than twice as many as Man United (#1 selling shirt) sold as a whole, just for one player. Doesn’t work.

The real reason Madrid and Barcelona can pay crazy money is because they have completely disproportionate shares of the wealth in Spanish football. The TV deal is distributed much less evenly for example.

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Re: FFP? what?

by Brain Traysers » 27 Aug 2020 22:27

WestYorksRoyal
Sutekh
Nameless It’s been obvious that something has to change with FFP. You can’t expect clubs to break even when they have no revenue.
However it should not be an excuse for us not to get our finances in order.
If FFP is scrapped/suspended it takes away the threat of points deduction but we really should use the opportunity to run the club on a sensible basis. No FFP would allow the owners to wipe existing debts and inject capital if they wished.


FFP is something that should be completely scrapped as all it does is help maintain the status quo, let alone the complexity involved with monitoring all the different aspects of a club’s accounts. Replacing it with the much mooted squad salary cap makes a lot more sense and would presumably be easier for both the FL and clubs to monitor and understand where they are within its limitations each season.

What is the objective of FFP? Stop clubs spending beyond their means and screwing themselves/relying upon owners?

If that is the objective, it has clearly failed. If the Dais were to walk away now and take the stadium and training ground they own with them, we'd be oxf*rd. Yet we haven't breached FFP.

I'm supportive of regulation that makes clubs sustainable, and that will inevitably support the status quo as big clubs have more resources. But clearly the plight of Bolton and Bury shows the current framework needs improvement. That's before we consider the shitshow at Wigan.


In reality, one of the side effects (or drivers if you are a conspiracy theorist) of the FPP regs is it helps ensure the European elite clubs keep their status. They effectively (tried to) rule out a club benefactor coming in, spending unsustainably to eventually gain access to Champions League football (and its huge income streams) after making huge losses. The Abramovich model is a lot harder now, although as an institution, UEFA are seemingly happy to slap teams on the wrist with a financial penalty rather than bare any actual teeth. Worth noting that a large part of the case against city was about the payments being off the books, not the actual losses.

The current reality is, if you want to remain FPP compliant you need to be an already big club and successfully sell and reinvest star players to drag yourself up to the top-top tier (Liverpool - current star players only purchased thanks to Suarez and Coutinho sales), or for clubs slightly lower in the pecking order successfully sell and reinvest over a number of seasons and eventually hope to crack CL qualification (current Leicester model)

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Re: FFP? what?

by Nameless » 28 Aug 2020 08:45

WestYorksRoyal
Sutekh
Nameless It’s been obvious that something has to change with FFP. You can’t expect clubs to break even when they have no revenue.
However it should not be an excuse for us not to get our finances in order.
If FFP is scrapped/suspended it takes away the threat of points deduction but we really should use the opportunity to run the club on a sensible basis. No FFP would allow the owners to wipe existing debts and inject capital if they wished.


FFP is something that should be completely scrapped as all it does is help maintain the status quo, let alone the complexity involved with monitoring all the different aspects of a club’s accounts. Replacing it with the much mooted squad salary cap makes a lot more sense and would presumably be easier for both the FL and clubs to monitor and understand where they are within its limitations each season.

What is the objective of FFP? Stop clubs spending beyond their means and screwing themselves/relying upon owners?

If that is the objective, it has clearly failed. If the Dais were to walk away now and take the stadium and training ground they own with them, we'd be oxf*rd. Yet we haven't breached FFP.

I'm supportive of regulation that makes clubs sustainable, and that will inevitably support the status quo as big clubs have more resources. But clearly the plight of Bolton and Bury shows the current framework needs improvement. That's before we consider the shitshow at Wigan.


The r ample of the owners walking away is no different to what could have happened any time in the last 30 years. SJM could have done exactly the same. He could have sold off Hogwood for housing, he could have sold the stadium to London Irish and made the club homeless.


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Re: FFP? what?

by TiagoIlori » 28 Aug 2020 10:29

I think the thing that makes it a bit less risky than last time is that our recruitment is miles better now, last time the only assets we could sell for a good amount were Liam Moore and John Swift, now we have Yakou Meite, George Puscas, John Swift(still), potentially Ovie Ejaria, Michael Olise and Andy Yiadom.

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Re: FFP? what?

by WestYorksRoyal » 28 Aug 2020 10:50

Even with FFP lifted, does anyone else think £6m for Swift from Villa is a good deal? Squad is unbalanced with Swift, Ejaria and Olise. Sell Swift and bring in some wide options.

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Re: FFP? what?

by WestYorksRoyal » 28 Aug 2020 11:14

WestYorksRoyal Even with FFP lifted, does anyone else think £6m for Swift from Villa is a good deal? Squad is unbalanced with Swift, Ejaria and Olise. Sell Swift and bring in some wide options.

Counter point to this is that the bid is about a third of what Palace just paid for Eze, even in the current market. I don't think Swift is as good as Eze, but should be £10m+ if you treat the deal as a reference point.

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Re: FFP? what?

by tidus_mi2 » 28 Aug 2020 11:29

WestYorksRoyal
WestYorksRoyal Even with FFP lifted, does anyone else think £6m for Swift from Villa is a good deal? Squad is unbalanced with Swift, Ejaria and Olise. Sell Swift and bring in some wide options.

Counter point to this is that the bid is about a third of what Palace just paid for Eze, even in the current market. I don't think Swift is as good as Eze, but should be £10m+ if you treat the deal as a reference point.

Got to agree, with the figures being banded around for the likes of Ollie Watkins and Eze means to me Swift has to be value somwhere between £8m-12m, with the owners reluctant to sell and the rumours of FFP being relaxed or ignored this season means that the buying clubs have lost their bargaining chips.

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Re: FFP? what?

by Hound » 28 Aug 2020 11:42

Yeah if we don’t need to sell then 8m should be the starting point imo

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Re: FFP? what?

by Nameless » 28 Aug 2020 11:53

TiagoIlori I think the thing that makes it a bit less risky than last time is that our recruitment is miles better now, last time the only assets we could sell for a good amount were Liam Moore and John Swift, now we have Yakou Meite, George Puscas, John Swift(still), potentially Ovie Ejaria, Michael Olise and Andy Yiadom.


McIntyre is worth a decent amount and Raphael would probably also be pretty saleable. Rhino has to be worth £2 million at least and Joao would sell too. The squad is actually full of good individuals, our problem is finding the way to combine them eff3 tively

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Re: FFP? what?

by From Despair To Where? » 28 Aug 2020 12:57

The way I see it is that big clubs have always had more spending power and more ability to attract better players but there's always been room for a Jack Walker or a Dave Whelan to transform the fortunes of a club through their own generosity.

My issue with Bournemouth isn't that their owner has spent millions but that the media portrayed their rise as some sort of fairytale. If their owner has billions to spend, good luck to them but let's be honest about it.

To me the issue lies less with the money being spent, although it is fairly obscene to see us spending over 200% of our income on wages and I see the value of a wage cap in this respect, but more with having tighter controls or checks on and proper regulation of ownership. FFP didn't stop Steve Dale screwing Bury and it didn't stop the farce at Wigan. That sort of thing puts the game more into disrepute than a multi billionaire sinking £50m of their own money into a football club.

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