Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

Snowball
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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Snowball » 08 Nov 2020 16:29

Hound I’d argue those are likely contradictory. Can’t be patient in possession if you’ve played direct from the back.

How many goals have we actually conceded from playing out from the back? 1 I think - stokes second. Yet I’d suggest at least 2 of our goals scored have come from the oppo playing too high to press (plus Barnsley send off). And I’ve not even really thought about our other goals and if they’ve come from passing it out

I can’t remember us conceding many since Stam tbh from actual mistakes passing it out. Sure there must have been some but it’s a really low percentage



Agree with Hound here.

What I noticed yesterday (can't remember Preston) was that we made MANY errors and many while NOT under pressure

If we lose possession when trying to beat a high-press, OK.. someone would need to do the stats to see if we get goals we otherwise wouldn't versus, how many we could avoid from being caught out.

BUT

Yesterday, as I say, the players were just not at the races and were sloppy even when NOT pressed. Olise has started to believe his own publicity and wants to win the game on his own.

I'd say the sloppiness has been since Blackburn. Maybe it's psychological. When we were underdogs, expected, at best to finish 10-12th, we were disciplined, (especially Laurent and Rhino) and shut other teams out totally down the middle.

Only a few attacks stretched us (eg got behind) and these were WING attacks. Someone posted here that this was fine because Morro-Moore ate crosses for breakfast.

Classic defensive midfielders play about 80% of the game in a small area, just "doing their job". That was how I saw us, EVERY game up until the Blackburn game. Now we see Laurent and Rhino often on the edge of the opponent's box.

We seem to have stopped playing to a strict team-method. I made the remark "Sunday football". The skills and power are there (although I think we need a speed-merchant) and when we are VERY disciplined, we just stop sides seeing our goal. Now, for Blackburn, Coventry, Preston, Stoke, we've gone (relatively) "gung-ho" which may LOOK cool but drops us into a basketball game.

IMO we need to go back to how we started. If we have to bore everyone for 35 minutes, FINE, it's still 0-0. IMO we've become cavalier and a lot more "random". We aren't playing to our strengths. Our strengths are we know how to get 0-0s. Then we add the chances we make after 35 minutes and in the second half.

Is it any accident that Laurent-Rhino were being praised for closing the game down? Now they aren't.

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Hound » 08 Nov 2020 16:41

Agree snowball on Rino and Laurent - had exactly the same thought

The work rate in closing down seems to have dropped a bit and there’s less intensity in the middle

They’ve both continued to play ok (Laurent was motm for me yesterday) but they aren’t working as a pair like they did

But I think that’s partly because Meite work his absolute arse off and Ejaria does as well to a slightly lesser extent and obvs both are out

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Snowball » 08 Nov 2020 16:53

Hound Agree snowball on Rino and Laurent - had exactly the same thought

The work rate in closing down seems to have dropped a bit and there’s less intensity in the middle

They’ve both continued to play ok (Laurent was motm for me yesterday) but they aren’t working as a pair like they did

But I think that’s partly because Meite work his absolute arse off and Ejaria does as well to a slightly lesser extent and obvs both are out


Yes, but they also seem (to my eye) to have lost discipline, or "got excited" or been given free rein

They are trying to be heroes instead of unsung heroes

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Hound » 08 Nov 2020 16:55

Maybe a bit of that

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by AthleticoSpizz » 08 Nov 2020 17:26

Snowball
Hound Agree snowball on Rino and Laurent - had exactly the same thought

The work rate in closing down seems to have dropped a bit and there’s less intensity in the middle

They’ve both continued to play ok (Laurent was motm for me yesterday) but they aren’t working as a pair like they did

But I think that’s partly because Meite work his absolute arse off and Ejaria does as well to a slightly lesser extent and obvs both are out


Yes, but they also seem (to my eye) to have lost discipline, or "got excited" or been given free rein

They are trying to be heroes instead of unsung heroes
Well put

That, and (of course) the opposition have done their homework, and cottoned-on.

Which begs the question....how do scouts and spies do their stuff during the current shut-outs?
Or (are they deemed to be ‘essential key-workers’) and there is a ‘mutual agreement’ amongst the clubs and are they all given a socially distanced ‘golden tickets’ to the grounds?

Now then, “let’s talk about sex, let’s talk about sex baby”


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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Zip » 08 Nov 2020 17:46

Agree with the comments about Lauent/Rinomhota. The soft underbelly for a number of years have been our defensive weaknesses down the middle of the pitch. That changed this season with these two doing so well in the first seven games to protect the back four. That’s been lost in the past four games. The loss of Meite and Moore has also weakened us defensively and we now look vulnerable and are leaking goals.

Back to basics v Bournemouth please.

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Westwood52 » 08 Nov 2020 18:26

I think the problem with the second goal yesterday was that Rafael kicked the ball into an indeterminate area,which was easily picked off.He should either hit it long and hope Meite or Jao can compete (Puskas is hopeless at this) or pass short to his CB s ,to start something.Under Coppel the tactic was to hit it long to the tramlines for Kits to knock it in field.Trouble is it looks bad if it sails into touch,if the kick is overcooked or the receiver is not good enough to get to it.The saving grace is of course the opposition having a throw deep in their half is out of the danger area and can create opportunities for us.

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Gunny Fishcake » 08 Nov 2020 19:00

Fannying about at the back is a nonsense for most clubs particularly when you've got a keeper with two left feet, presuming he's right footed, it's a disaster waiting to happen , just get rid of the ball out of the danger area

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Lower West » 08 Nov 2020 19:20

We've a manager that doesn't know this league. Like Stam, like Gomes wants the team to play and impose their style of football. Unfortunately they ultimately get found out by more experienced managers. O'Neill being the latest.


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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Nov 2020 20:31

Hound I’d argue those are likely contradictory. Can’t be patient in possession if you’ve played direct from the back.

How many goals have we actually conceded from playing out from the back? 1 I think - stokes second. Yet I’d suggest at least 2 of our goals scored have come from the oppo playing too high to press (plus Barnsley send off). And I’ve not even really thought about our other goals and if they’ve come from passing it out

I can’t remember us conceding many since Stam tbh from actual mistakes passing it out. Sure there must have been some but it’s a really low percentage


I don't think they are. Any time you're restarting from a goal kick, your centrebacks should not be split and deeper than 18 yards. By all means, if the ball is in the keeper's hands or there is a safe opportunity to use him to spread the play to the other side of the pitch and exploit space do it. But don't take a goal kick six yards, fart arse around for two or three passes going no where and then have a centreback hoof it in desperation, or have already lost the ball.

I remember the days when playing a pass across the penalty area was a cardinal sin because of how dangerous it was if the opposition were alive to it or you got it wrong.

Kick the ball into midfield or attack, compete for it, win it if you can, pick up a loose ball or second ball if at all possible otherwise and build from there. Play around the middle third as much as you like. No point playing that passing game around the attacking third, the space is too tight to find a way through generally. And doing it in your defensive third is just too risky.

Thing about passing out is it requires excellent passing skill, excellent first touch, excellent vision and awareness. Generally, players at this level don't have that. By contrast, to combat it what you need is energy, commitment and attention, and teams at this level have that in spades.

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Hound » 08 Nov 2020 21:20

Ill admit to not being a great fan of this knocking the ball to a cb 2 yards away from a goal kick. On the other hand I do find it an interesting development to the game and one I’ll watch

I think we’re capable of playing the pass out game. I think we’ve proved that and it’s bought us some success early season. Of course it looks appalling when it goes wrong but I think we need to have the confidence and commitment to stick with it

Not that it doesn’t need tweaking and what Rafa was trying for that 2nd goal is completely beyond me

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Snowball » 08 Nov 2020 22:27

Lower West We've a manager that doesn't know this league. Like Stam, like Gomes wants the team to play and impose their style of football. Unfortunately they ultimately get found out by more experienced managers. O'Neill being the latest.


We haven't been "found out"

We have missed a string of good chances, chances, Joao, for example would normally bury

We have made a string of individual errors.

We've had good possession, a decent number of shots, decent number of shots on target, MORE than our opponents.

IMO we should have beaten Coventry, should have put Stoke away in first half.

There's no "found out" just we started playing a more expansive game (first, at Blackburn) and threw away a method that was working. Add in the strikers losing the plot (a bit), Moore out, no Ejaria, no Meite, a string of poor errors.

We haven't been outplayed. We shot ourselves in the foot

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by URZZZZ » 08 Nov 2020 23:36

Hound I’d argue those are likely contradictory. Can’t be patient in possession if you’ve played direct from the back.

How many goals have we actually conceded from playing out from the back? 1 I think - stokes second. Yet I’d suggest at least 2 of our goals scored have come from the oppo playing too high to press (plus Barnsley send off). And I’ve not even really thought about our other goals and if they’ve come from passing it out

I can’t remember us conceding many since Stam tbh from actual mistakes passing it out. Sure there must have been some but it’s a really low percentage



Also conceded playing from the back against Blackburn with Rafael trying a clever throw rather than kicking it downfield

I’m not against the idea of passing it from the back but only when it’s actually on, no point in forcing it if the opponents aren’t letting us build from the back. You have to factor in the risks outweigh the rewards when it comes to it

You made an earlier point that the best teams build from the back. Don’t think that’s necessarily the case, a lot of the “top” teams nowadays are those that play on the counter


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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Hound » 09 Nov 2020 07:19

Harsh on Rafael for the Blackburn goal - that was a decent throw to almost the half way line. Just poor control by Richards

I see breaking the press and counter attacking as similar things to be honest. Both times you’re trying to get in behind the midfield and forward line to leave your forwards running at the defence. I can’t think of any major teams that don’t play out - obvs to different degrees

Stam ball was obvs something different. I’ve no real idea what it was to be honest but it’s not what we try to do now

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Snowflake Royal » 09 Nov 2020 09:25

Hound Ill admit to not being a great fan of this knocking the ball to a cb 2 yards away from a goal kick. On the other hand I do find it an interesting development to the game and one I’ll watch

I think we’re capable of playing the pass out game. I think we’ve proved that and it’s bought us some success early season. Of course it looks appalling when it goes wrong but I think we need to have the confidence and commitment to stick with it

Not that it doesn’t need tweaking and what Rafa was trying for that 2nd goal is completely beyond me

That's the point though. It's fine if you get it spot on, but the second you make a mistake it's either a goal scoring opportunity or a worse hoof upfield than if you'd just done it originally.

Risk >>>>>>> Reward

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by paultheroyal » 09 Nov 2020 09:40

So many games, points and goals conceded is being used with this tactic - our possession stats were absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a thought, goal kicks, all push up, kick it long and do your utmost to win the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ball from it, press and get it after it. Once won, then you play, hopefully in their half, because all we are doing is pass pass pass, pressure, hoof. Not many chances or plays are being converted from this tactic. Get it long, win it back.

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Hound » 09 Nov 2020 09:43

paultheroyal So many games, points and goals conceded is being used with this tactic - our possession stats were absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a thought, goal kicks, all push up, kick it long and do your utmost to win the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ball from it, press and get it after it. Once won, then you play, hopefully in their half, because all we are doing is pass pass pass, pressure, hoof. Not many chances or plays are being converted from this tactic. Get it long, win it back.


i think thats exactly what i've just argued isnt true. One goal this season conceded from this tactic. Arguably 2 or 3 goals scored from using it.

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Hound » 09 Nov 2020 09:47

Snowflake Royal
Hound Ill admit to not being a great fan of this knocking the ball to a cb 2 yards away from a goal kick. On the other hand I do find it an interesting development to the game and one I’ll watch

I think we’re capable of playing the pass out game. I think we’ve proved that and it’s bought us some success early season. Of course it looks appalling when it goes wrong but I think we need to have the confidence and commitment to stick with it

Not that it doesn’t need tweaking and what Rafa was trying for that 2nd goal is completely beyond me

That's the point though. It's fine if you get it spot on, but the second you make a mistake it's either a goal scoring opportunity or a worse hoof upfield than if you'd just done it originally.

Risk >>>>>>> Reward


Being top of the table suggests that the rewards are >>>>>>> the risks though?

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by URZZZZ » 09 Nov 2020 09:57

Hound
paultheroyal So many games, points and goals conceded is being used with this tactic - our possession stats were absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a thought, goal kicks, all push up, kick it long and do your utmost to win the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ball from it, press and get it after it. Once won, then you play, hopefully in their half, because all we are doing is pass pass pass, pressure, hoof. Not many chances or plays are being converted from this tactic. Get it long, win it back.


i think thats exactly what i've just argued isnt true. One goal this season conceded from this tactic. Arguably 2 or 3 goals scored from using it.


Out of interest, how many times have we scored from a goal kick passing it around?

I can think of Derby where Rafael booted it downfield rather than passing it out, but can’t physically remember is scoring from “building from the back”

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Re: Let’s talk about passing it around the back.

by Snowflake Royal » 09 Nov 2020 10:03

Hound
paultheroyal So many games, points and goals conceded is being used with this tactic - our possession stats were absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a thought, goal kicks, all push up, kick it long and do your utmost to win the 1st, 2nd and 3rd ball from it, press and get it after it. Once won, then you play, hopefully in their half, because all we are doing is pass pass pass, pressure, hoof. Not many chances or plays are being converted from this tactic. Get it long, win it back.


i think thats exactly what i've just argued isnt true. One goal this season conceded from this tactic. Arguably 2 or 3 goals scored from using it.

1 goal against Stoke, plus the one that was inches from going in off the post, plus another near thing.
Blackburn one is related because we were looking to play out so the defence was out of position and the throw was a Rafael special to someone tightly marked. There wasn't a poor touch, it was awkward and just not on.

Earlier in the season we weren't doing it as much, making better decisions about when to try and mixed it up going long.

Please feel free to name some goals we've scored playing out under pressure that don't involve a long ball upfield. Because I can't think of any.

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