Financial Fair Play

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muirinho
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by muirinho » 30 May 2019 19:57

Brain Traysers
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Brain Traysers I really wonder what is in it for the current owners.


I guess when you are so ridiculously wealthy that it doesn't matter then you can do stuff that doesn't make financial sense. Perhaps Dai Yongge is one of these compulsive business men who just likes taking on a challenge much like some of us might do a Sudoku. He has the kudos of owning an English football club, the possibility of owning a Premiership football club and not much of a downside.
Whether there is anything shady the ownership (in terms of extracting money from China) seems unlikely as I understand the Chinese have clamped down on it, but who knows whether there is an 'angle'. With the Russians it didn't take much to find dodgy connections, the Thai's seemed to be looking for an entry into wider UK business but the Chinese seem to be what they seem to be so far....


There was a political angle a few years ago, President Xi is a known soccer fan and really wants to grow the sport in China. Wave one of that was Chinese ownership of foreign clubs, and big spending to bring top talents to the Chinese league but as you referred to that contradicted the stricter controls on capital outflows. Indeed that wave of ownership and spending seems to be drying up.

With a cynical hat on, if it was an investment purely to curry political favour, and President Xi's appetite for such deals has shrunk, whats in it for the Dai's now beyond annual losses of £20m+?


All football club owners are mad, seriously. So few actually make money, and they cop so much grief.

But so far, the Dai's, for me, are doing all the right things. They can't pump money into the players, but they are still pushing money into the things that FFP discounts - Bearwood & the Academy are obvious ones - but saw a tweet from one of the grounds people showing the Mad Stad pitch getting renovated. We're not liable to get wound up because we can't pay a tax bill (as long as the Dais don't suddenly see sense, and take to burning £20 notes as a hobby instead).

BTW, I'm assuming that stuff like Bearwood is going to be in the accounts, as filed at Company House - but that isn't going to be the version used for FFP checking presumably?

Nameless
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Nameless » 30 May 2019 20:46

muirinho
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Nameless
I guess when you are so ridiculously wealthy that it doesn't matter then you can do stuff that doesn't make financial sense. Perhaps Dai Yongge is one of these compulsive business men who just likes taking on a challenge much like some of us might do a Sudoku. He has the kudos of owning an English football club, the possibility of owning a Premiership football club and not much of a downside.
Whether there is anything shady the ownership (in terms of extracting money from China) seems unlikely as I understand the Chinese have clamped down on it, but who knows whether there is an 'angle'. With the Russians it didn't take much to find dodgy connections, the Thai's seemed to be looking for an entry into wider UK business but the Chinese seem to be what they seem to be so far....


There was a political angle a few years ago, President Xi is a known soccer fan and really wants to grow the sport in China. Wave one of that was Chinese ownership of foreign clubs, and big spending to bring top talents to the Chinese league but as you referred to that contradicted the stricter controls on capital outflows. Indeed that wave of ownership and spending seems to be drying up.

With a cynical hat on, if it was an investment purely to curry political favour, and President Xi's appetite for such deals has shrunk, whats in it for the Dai's now beyond annual losses of £20m+?


All football club owners are mad, seriously. So few actually make money, and they cop so much grief.

But so far, the Dai's, for me, are doing all the right things. They can't pump money into the players, but they are still pushing money into the things that FFP discounts - Bearwood & the Academy are obvious ones - but saw a tweet from one of the grounds people showing the Mad Stad pitch getting renovated. We're not liable to get wound up because we can't pay a tax bill (as long as the Dais don't suddenly see sense, and take to burning £20 notes as a hobby instead).

BTW, I'm assuming that stuff like Bearwood is going to be in the accounts, as filed at Company House - but that isn't going to be the version used for FFP checking presumably?


How could there be more than one set of accounts ? Surely that would be illegal ?

Brain Traysers
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Brain Traysers » 30 May 2019 22:34

Nameless
muirinho
All football club owners are mad, seriously. So few actually make money, and they cop so much grief.

But so far, the Dai's, for me, are doing all the right things. They can't pump money into the players, but they are still pushing money into the things that FFP discounts - Bearwood & the Academy are obvious ones - but saw a tweet from one of the grounds people showing the Mad Stad pitch getting renovated. We're not liable to get wound up because we can't pay a tax bill (as long as the Dais don't suddenly see sense, and take to burning £20 notes as a hobby instead).

BTW, I'm assuming that stuff like Bearwood is going to be in the accounts, as filed at Company House - but that isn't going to be the version used for FFP checking presumably?


How could there be more than one set of accounts ? Surely that would be illegal ?


I presume muirinho is referring to what is included in the FPP calculations, rather than the actual accounts (which include everything). The FPP is based around footballing operations - my understanding is its essentially wages and net transfer spend vs match day, TV and commercial revenue over a 3 year window. Put another way - longer term infrastructure investment (which muirinho is very right to highlight as a plus for the Dai's) are not included in FPP calcs.

muirinho
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by muirinho » 30 May 2019 22:40

Brain Traysers
Nameless
How could there be more than one set of accounts ? Surely that would be illegal ?


I presume muirinho is referring to what is included in the FPP calculations, rather than the actual accounts (which include everything). The FPP is based around footballing operations - my understanding is its essentially wages and net transfer spend vs match day, TV and commercial revenue over a 3 year window. Put another way - longer term infrastructure investment (which muirinho is very right to highlight as a plus for the Dai's) are not included in FPP calcs.


yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Clutching at straws obviously, but, say, the £21 million loss might be a mere £19 million loss in FFP terms, once other stuff is stripped out

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Sutekh
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Sutekh » 31 May 2019 09:15

So why couldn't a very wealthy and benevolent owner of a club stick, say, £25 million of their own money into it - as a "gift" - and therefore give flexibility to football operations under FFP rules.


muirinho
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by muirinho » 31 May 2019 09:57

Sutekh So why couldn't a very wealthy and benevolent owner of a club stick, say, £25 million of their own money into it - as a "gift" - and therefore give flexibility to football operations under FFP rules.


the whole point of FFP is to have a "sustainable" model. If the club can only survive on £25million gifts, then it isn't viable, and if the owner changes his mind, and doesn't stump up the cash, then the club could go under.

so the idea is that the club should be able to sustain itself based on its own revenues.

Or - keep the big clubs big and the small clubs small.....

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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Royalwaster » 31 May 2019 11:29

Sutekh So why couldn't a very wealthy and benevolent owner of a club stick, say, £25 million of their own money into it - as a "gift" - and therefore give flexibility to football operations under FFP rules.


That's effectively what Manchester City is being accused of doing ... presumably there are rules about what you can and cannot do. So they cannot, for example, give us a sponsorship deal worth more than what a sponsorship deal is 'normally' worth, etc.

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Snowflake Royal » 31 May 2019 12:58

Owners rarely ever put gifts in anyway. It usually just adds to what they're owed and want to get back out on leaving.

As others have suggested, a gift of £25m sets budgets at a different level which if another gift isn't forthcoming have to be slashed or cause big debt through overspend.

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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Elm Park Kid » 31 May 2019 13:28

Also there's a question if footballing success is just dependent on who has the richest owner than what's the point?

Reading could spend a decade working on their academy, building a squad, growing a supporter base and creating a fantastic team - only for their rivals to come along and offer all our players higher wages because some Saudi billionaire can afford it. What would be the point in even trying?


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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Nameless » 31 May 2019 16:58

Elm Park Kid Also there's a question if footballing success is just dependent on who has the richest owner than what's the point?

Reading could spend a decade working on their academy, building a squad, growing a supporter base and creating a fantastic team - only for their rivals to come along and offer all our players higher wages because some Saudi billionaire can afford it. What would be the point in even trying?


Are you not familiar with post Sky football ?

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Wallsy
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Wallsy » 31 May 2019 18:33

So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.

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Sutekh
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Sutekh » 01 Jun 2019 09:30

Wallsy So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.


You never win anything with kids.

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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Nameless » 01 Jun 2019 11:35

Sutekh
Wallsy So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.


You never win anything with kids.


We won the PL cup with a bunch of kids.....


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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Jagermesiter1871 » 01 Jun 2019 13:55

Wallsy So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.


Isn't it a pretty stupid move to make it publicly known we are desperate to offload players?

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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Hound » 01 Jun 2019 14:11

Jagermesiter1871
Wallsy So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.


Isn't it a pretty stupid move to make it publicly known we are desperate to offload players?


Tbf, think it’s pretty obvious. Everyone can see our accounts and squad list.

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Snowflake Royal » 01 Jun 2019 17:01

Hound
Jagermesiter1871
Wallsy So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.


Isn't it a pretty stupid move to make it publicly known we are desperate to offload players?


Tbf, think it’s pretty obvious. Everyone can see our accounts and squad list.

Yeah, the only 'news' is that we're basically not bringing anyone in until someone goes. We all knew it was tight and we needed to offload. I certainly wasn't quite expecting quite the level of grip on the purse strings as Gomes has described though.

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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Hound » 01 Jun 2019 18:31

No a little surprised we’re being so strict but probably necessary

I suppose it’s the equivalent of a shop having a load of crap excess stock and sticking big ‘sale’ sign all over the windows. There’s no good keeping quiet and clubs not thinking we have players for sale. I don’t think we’ll let too many go that we don’t want to - maybe Loader + 1 more

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Wallsy
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Wallsy » 01 Jun 2019 20:54

Jagermesiter1871
Wallsy So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.


Isn't it a pretty stupid move to make it publicly known we are desperate to offload players?


If it drums up more interest in players then no, not really.

We either spend nothing and rely heavily on the academy, or we get rid of some big earners and as many fringe players as possible, and then get a few in.

If we take a small hit to get rid of the McNulty’s, Gunter’s, McCleary’s, Kelly’s, then so be it!

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Lower West
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Lower West » 01 Jun 2019 23:01

Jagermesiter1871
Wallsy So we’re no under a self-imposed transfer embargo until players get moved on. If things really are that tight with FFP then we really need to get the likes of Gunter, McCleary, Kelly et all off the books ASAP, even if it means taking less for them in order to increase interest in them.

That sad, I’m quite excited by the youngsters pushing the first-team. I don’t think we’ll be in another relegation dogfight, even if we have to rely on a few more kids than we’d like to, but Macca, Osho, Olise, Barrett and Loader are all very promising, as is Howe and Holsgrove to bane just two more.


Isn't it a pretty stupid move to make it publicly known we are desperate to offload players?


Suspect there's plenty of clubs in a similar if not worse predicament.

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Snowflake Royal
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Re: Financial Fair Play

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Jun 2019 08:11

Does anyone have our last three season losses to hand to have a better idea of where we are financially?

We won't have this season yet, but we'd know what we've got to better next season to avoid FFP issues based on two years ago...

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