England’s World Cup Finals 2018

329 posts
User avatar
Sutekh
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8579
Joined: 12 Feb 2014 14:05
Location: Destroying things.... just like Michael Gilkes used to

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Sutekh » 11 Jun 2018 14:25

Sanguine I know it doesn't speak much of techniques, but if you mapped all of the scored penalties in world cup shootouts, I'd venture they are in the majority in the same areas. But send the keeper the wrong way and it goes in.

Point I am making is that even for those above (Pearce's an obvious exception, he just wellied it), most probably did choose a side and go for it.


Consistent practice should enable a professional player to consistently put the ball right into the corner of their choice with pace making it as difficult as possible for any keeper to save it even if he does get the right side.

Back in 1990 Lineker used to practice penalties and scored two v Cameroon. Story behind that is he used to practice putting them all to one side in training and apparently the day before the Cameroon game the word went up there was a Cameroon scout in the stands watching so Lineker deliberately hit all his penalties to his less favoured side and hey presto the next day when England get the first penalty, he somehow managed to send the keeper the wrong way.

User avatar
BR0B0T
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7366
Joined: 08 Nov 2016 23:25

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by BR0B0T » 11 Jun 2018 14:51

Sutekh
Sanguine I know it doesn't speak much of techniques, but if you mapped all of the scored penalties in world cup shootouts, I'd venture they are in the majority in the same areas. But send the keeper the wrong way and it goes in.

Point I am making is that even for those above (Pearce's an obvious exception, he just wellied it), most probably did choose a side and go for it.


Consistent practice should enable a professional player to consistently put the ball right into the corner of their choice with pace making it as difficult as possible for any keeper to save it even if he does get the right side.

Back in 1990 Lineker used to practice penalties and scored two v Cameroon. Story behind that is he used to practice putting them all to one side in training and apparently the day before the Cameroon game the word went up there was a Cameroon scout in the stands watching so Lineker deliberately hit all his penalties to his less favoured side and hey presto the next day when England get the first penalty, he somehow managed to send the keeper the wrong way.


Slightly different situation. Paul Merson mentions this in 'Quickly Kevin' podcast. A penalty during the game, you just get on with...in a penalty shoot-out he said the walk was the hardest thing

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8920
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Snowflake Royal » 11 Jun 2018 18:36

Which is exactly why the opposition will try to delay an in game penalty as long as possible see Kermie(?)'s antics for the pen Mannone saved at the end of the season.

Keep em waiting, give em thinking time to build up indecision and nerves.

But still, absolutely no reason a player shouldn't be able to stick 9/10 efforts into an unsaveable window a foot or so across near the top corner, with enough effort in practice.

User avatar
tmesis
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1389
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 20:26

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by tmesis » 11 Jun 2018 19:00

Sanguine I know it doesn't speak much of techniques, but if you mapped all of the scored penalties in world cup shootouts, I'd venture they are in the majority in the same areas. But send the keeper the wrong way and it goes in.

Point I am making is that even for those above (Pearce's an obvious exception, he just wellied it), most probably did choose a side and go for it.


Looking at where they were were scored is almost useless. You need to look at where they were saved, and try to aim for the less savable areas.

If you are just hoping the keeper dives the wrong way, you are turning it into a 50/50 chance. Given that any team that misses two kicks usually loses, that's a very poor tactic.

Coaches these days love their "heat maps" and other such stats, but stubbornly insist on 1970s style thinking for penalties. When you see the teams that win shoot-outs, and where they place the ball, there's no suggestion they are going for a hit and hope type kick. They are looking to put it away with precision so that even of the keep guesses the right way, it'll still probably go in.

User avatar
Hoop Blah
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13624
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:00
Location: I told you so.....

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Hoop Blah » 11 Jun 2018 22:48

Snowflake Royal But still, absolutely no reason a player shouldn't be able to stick 9/10 efforts into an unsaveable window a foot or so across near the top corner, with enough effort in practice.


Any half decent player should be able to hit a specific part of the goal from 13 yards 95 time in a hundred regardless of practice. It’s not that hard a technical skill. It’s the psychological side of it that brings in any degree of difficulty.

One article I’ve read recently suggested that practise can actually make it more difficult because it’s adding to the pressure and building up penalties to be more difficult than they really are.

It’s a complex, and probably quite individual, issue and the number of missed/saved penalties suggests it’s a lot more difficult then the actual physalis act.


User avatar
bcubed
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4608
Joined: 30 Oct 2004 18:16
Location: Would do better with a stick of rhubarb

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by bcubed » 11 Jun 2018 23:57

Hoop Blah
Snowflake Royal But still, absolutely no reason a player shouldn't be able to stick 9/10 efforts into an unsaveable window a foot or so across near the top corner, with enough effort in practice.


Any half decent player should be able to hit a specific part of the goal from 13 yards 95 time in a hundred regardless of practice. It’s not that hard a technical skill. It’s the psychological side of it that brings in any degree of difficulty.

One article I’ve read recently suggested that practise can actually make it more difficult because it’s adding to the pressure and building up penalties to be more difficult than they really are.

It’s a complex, and probably quite individual, issue and the number of missed/saved penalties suggests it’s a lot more difficult then the actual physalis act.


I think a right footed player should be able to hit the top right corner almost every time. Hitting it to the left and just inside the post is more difficult and carries a touch more risk. But I agree it's more the mental capacity to keep it all together when the pressure is on that is the hard part. And that's the bit we've consistently fcuked up over the years.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8920
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Jun 2018 07:22

I'd agree if the players consistently went for the right shot and missed, but they don't. They target saveable areas and hope.

It is mental too, but I totally disagree on practice being counter productive, unless we're talking practice reinforcing poor pen technique.

User avatar
Stranded
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 9630
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 12:42
Location: Propping up the bar in the Nags

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Stranded » 12 Jun 2018 08:50

Snowflake Royal I'd agree if the players consistently went for the right shot and missed, but they don't. They target saveable areas and hope.

It is mental too, but I totally disagree on practice being counter productive, unless we're talking practice reinforcing poor pen technique.


It's human nature in high pressure to aim for "safe" areas. By aiming for the parts of the goal where it is nigh on impossible for the keeper to save it you raise the chances of you missing the target completely if you mis-judge your kick i.e. you make contact with the wrong part of the ball, are leaning back slightly or your foot slips.

In the mind of most players, it is better to hit the target and have a chance that the keeper makes a save rather than missing the target by going for the higher risk, higher reward parts of the goal.

User avatar
stealthpapes
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6303
Joined: 05 Jun 2013 13:25
Location: proverbs 26:11

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by stealthpapes » 12 Jun 2018 09:01

Sanguine I know it doesn't speak much of techniques, but if you mapped all of the scored penalties in world cup shootouts, I'd venture they are in the majority in the same areas. But send the keeper the wrong way and it goes in.

Point I am making is that even for those above (Pearce's an obvious exception, he just wellied it), most probably did choose a side and go for it.


Accurate as of start of Euros 2012.



Today I mostly learned that practise doesn't help.


User avatar
Platypuss
Hob Nob Moderator
Posts: 8076
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 21:46
Location: No one cares about your creative hub, so get your fukcin' hedge cut

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Platypuss » 12 Jun 2018 09:13

Suggests something interesting going on for the two bottom corners.

Sanguine
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11427
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Sanguine » 12 Jun 2018 09:19

tmesis Looking at where they were were scored is almost useless. You need to look at where they were saved, and try to aim for the less savable areas.


I'm simply suggesting that for many penalty takers (Eden Hazard a good example actually) their technique is to send the keeper the wrong way. I can't find it anywhere, but I'd love to see Hazard's penalty map. Iirc his record is something like 1 or 2 misses from 25 penalties. I'd wager more than 50% are in 'saveable areas'.

User avatar
genome
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 17367
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 13:29
Location: Universe

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by genome » 12 Jun 2018 09:52



Football's coming home, lads.

User avatar
Old Man Andrews
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 9334
Joined: 02 Oct 2017 13:06
Location: The South of England

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Old Man Andrews » 12 Jun 2018 09:53

genome

Football's coming home, lads.


Competition winner Jamie Vardy.


User avatar
stealthpapes
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6303
Joined: 05 Jun 2013 13:25
Location: proverbs 26:11

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by stealthpapes » 12 Jun 2018 10:54

Platypuss Suggests something interesting going on for the two bottom corners.


It all feels like the statistical analysis of B17 tails and shrapnel impacts.

User avatar
stealthpapes
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6303
Joined: 05 Jun 2013 13:25
Location: proverbs 26:11

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by stealthpapes » 12 Jun 2018 10:56

Sanguine
tmesis Looking at where they were were scored is almost useless. You need to look at where they were saved, and try to aim for the less savable areas.


I'm simply suggesting that for many penalty takers (Eden Hazard a good example actually) their technique is to send the keeper the wrong way. I can't find it anywhere, but I'd love to see Hazard's penalty map. Iirc his record is something like 1 or 2 misses from 25 penalties. I'd wager more than 50% are in 'saveable areas'.


Hazard's style is to, typically, place it along the floor, with the keeper going the other way. IIRC, the analysis of which way shows that there is no pattern, its basically random.

User avatar
BR0B0T
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7366
Joined: 08 Nov 2016 23:25

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by BR0B0T » 12 Jun 2018 11:45

Shilton waited to see which way the penalties went...he went the right way but was nowhere near at WC90

Seaman says he guessed (based on takers body language)...he saved several penalties at Euro 96

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 8920
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Jun 2018 12:45

Stranded
Snowflake Royal I'd agree if the players consistently went for the right shot and missed, but they don't. They target saveable areas and hope.

It is mental too, but I totally disagree on practice being counter productive, unless we're talking practice reinforcing poor pen technique.


It's human nature in high pressure to aim for "safe" areas. By aiming for the parts of the goal where it is nigh on impossible for the keeper to save it you raise the chances of you missing the target completely if you mis-judge your kick i.e. you make contact with the wrong part of the ball, are leaning back slightly or your foot slips.

In the mind of most players, it is better to hit the target and have a chance that the keeper makes a save rather than missing the target by going for the higher risk, higher reward parts of the goal.

Yes, absolutely. But that's where the training and coaching comes in to give them the confidence they can hit the right target and the instruction to do so. May well need the involvement of a sports psychologist. But it should be happening.

User avatar
John Madejski's Wallet
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 10886
Joined: 10 Apr 2005 00:22
Location: Anyone who lives within their means shows a serious lack of imagination

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by John Madejski's Wallet » 12 Jun 2018 17:17

If its not a training/ball skill thing, then we all just have to agree that England is full of mentally feeble footballers.

I still stand by the Portugal pens that knocked us out. Unseaveable

User avatar
stealthpapes
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6303
Joined: 05 Jun 2013 13:25
Location: proverbs 26:11

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by stealthpapes » 12 Jun 2018 18:10

John Madejski's Wallet If its not a training/ball skill thing, then we all just have to agree that England is full of mentally feeble footballers.


I've been saying that since 2004.

Its not that they're shit. They're just stoopid.

User avatar
tmesis
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 1389
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 20:26

Re: England’s World Cup Finals 2018

by tmesis » 12 Jun 2018 18:17

stealthpapes
Sanguine
tmesis Looking at where they were were scored is almost useless. You need to look at where they were saved, and try to aim for the less savable areas.


I'm simply suggesting that for many penalty takers (Eden Hazard a good example actually) their technique is to send the keeper the wrong way. I can't find it anywhere, but I'd love to see Hazard's penalty map. Iirc his record is something like 1 or 2 misses from 25 penalties. I'd wager more than 50% are in 'saveable areas'.


Hazard's style is to, typically, place it along the floor, with the keeper going the other way. IIRC, the analysis of which way shows that there is no pattern, its basically random.

IF he has a technique which means his is able to send keepers the wrong way consistently (or he can tell which way the keeper will dive, and puts it the other side), then it's not random.

If it was random then the keeper would go the right way as often as the wrong way.

329 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

It is currently 21 Oct 2019 12:28