EPL just as predicatable as the SPL

[paultheroyal]

So there's no point to just about any league in any sport then?

And FTR, the 06/07 season is the most enjoyably I've had as a Reading fan, despite knowing we weren't going to win the league. And ask Spurs fans how they felt when they finished 4th.

Spot on. For me, every game in premier ship was enjoyable because every point mattered and so it proved!

[weybridgewanderer]

Just another little stat for you; in the last 45 years, only on 5 occasions have teams other than Rangers and Celtic won the top flight in Scotland; Kilmarnock (65/66) Dundee Utd (82/83) and Aberdeen (79/80, 83/84 & 84/85).

In the English top division over that period of time, 11 different teams have won the title, whilst teams like QPR, Southampton, Watford and Ipswich finished 2nd.

Since the 95/96 season, only once has it not finished a Celtic/Rangers 1st or 2nd; 05/06 when Hearts finished 2nd.

Since the 1965/66 season, at least 1 of the Auld Firm has finished in the top 2 EVERY SEASON.

Still think that the Scottish top division isn't a teensy weensy bit like Groundhog Day??

I never said it wasn't

I never said the football was great

All I said is the EPL is now just as predictable

[sheshnu]

I reckon somebody other than Chelsea or Man U will win the Premier League within the next decade. Chances are the SPL trophy won't ever move outside Glasgow.

[Mr Angry]

Just another little stat for you; in the last 45 years, only on 5 occasions have teams other than Rangers and Celtic won the top flight in Scotland; Kilmarnock (65/66) Dundee Utd (82/83) and Aberdeen (79/80, 83/84 & 84/85).

In the English top division over that period of time, 11 different teams have won the title, whilst teams like QPR, Southampton, Watford and Ipswich finished 2nd.

Since the 95/96 season, only once has it not finished a Celtic/Rangers 1st or 2nd; 05/06 when Hearts finished 2nd.

Since the 1965/66 season, at least 1 of the Auld Firm has finished in the top 2 EVERY SEASON.

Still think that the Scottish top division isn't a teensy weensy bit like Groundhog Day??

I never said it wasn't

I never said the football was great

All I said is the EPL is now just as predictable

Yeah, SO predictable....no doubt you made a small fortune on betting that Blackpool would beat Wigan 4-0 away from home, cos I have to agree with you, that was totally predictable.....

The reality of the EPL is quite simple; money talks. The clubs will finish in pretty well the order of their wealth; Man Utd have been the richest club for the past 10-15 years, coinciding with their recent successes. I can see Man City pushing for the title in the very near future, whilst as well as them, Man Utd and Chelsea, you have to include Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal as contenders, whilst Everton and Villa are on the fringes.

Whilst its predictable to a degree, there still isn't the utter certainty that you have with the SPL as to who 1st and 2nd will be.

[Very near...far away]

We've been told by the powers that be at Murdochvision to start calling it the "BPL" in Straya. Odd, because you don't see many Barclays* on street corners here.





*Not rhyming slang for Barclays Banker.

[Dirk Gently]

Of course individual matches are still unpredictable, but what has happened over the past 10 years or so is that the divides between the individual mini-leagues have become much, much bigger.

So whereas Everton, Spurs or Villa were possible title contenders 15 years ago, now they're in the middle "mini-league" of teams pretty secure who aim for a European place. At the same time everyone knows that the title will be won by one of the big 5 - or realistically just 2 of them.

Within the biggest "mini-league" - the 12 or so clubs who want to stay in the PL (or to get promoted to it) it's very competitive indeed, as it is within each of these mini-leagues.

So Blackpool vs Wigan could have gone any way, but Man Utd or Chelsea vs either of them will have a lot less scope for an upset. I can see the PL very soon being decided on goal difference, which will be down to which big team beats the little ones by 5 or 6 gaols the most.

[Tails]

Of course individual matches are still unpredictable, but what has happened over the past 10 years or so is that the divides between the individual mini-leagues have become much, much bigger.

So whereas Everton, Spurs or Villa were possible title contenders 15 years ago, now they're in the middle "mini-league" of teams pretty secure who aim for a European place. At the same time everyone knows that the title will be won by one of the big 5 - or realistically just 2 of them.

Within the biggest "mini-league" - the 12 or so clubs who want to stay in the PL (or to get promoted to it) it's very competitive indeed, as it is within each of these mini-leagues.

So Blackpool vs Wigan could have gone any way, but Man Utd or Chelsea vs either of them will have a lot less scope for an upset. I can see the PL very soon being decided on goal difference, which will be down to which big team beats the little ones by 5 or 6 gaols the most.

Really....I can only find gaps of around 10+ points [with teams like Blackburn/Newcastle]

[under the tin]

So there's no point to just about any league in any sport then?

And FTR, the 06/07 season is the most enjoyably I've had as a Reading fan , despite knowing we weren't going to win the league. And ask Spurs fans how they felt when they finished 4th.

Spot on. For me, every game in premier ship was enjoyable because every point mattered and so it proved!

2005-6 was the kind of season every club supporter has wet dreams about.
06/7 was a novelty, because I never thought I'd see the day when my little club was playing in the top flight.
That experience was spoilt a bit by spending too much time sitting next to tourists with camera phones, trying to get pictures of Fwank or Stevie G, and also the cost and scarcity of tickets for away games.
FTR, The SPL is shit, so is the EPL.
MoTD for me, I'm out.

[Seal]

10 years ago people moaned about the big 3

Then it was the dominance of the big 4

Even Dirk is now talking about a big 5 (which I assume doesn't even include 4th place Spurs)

Seems pretty fluid to me.

And LOL @ what's the point of a competition you can't win? Does that mean if we get promoted we should ask to stay in the Championship cos we can't win anymore?

I would echo the sentiments of others - 06/07 was great. Hell, I even enjoyed 07/08. The coverage, the stadiums, picking Reading players in my fantasy league team, people in the office knowing who Kevin Doyle was, Alan Hansen moaning about our offside trap. I'd love to have all that back. Even if we don't have a chance at winning the league.

Seriously the amount people on here moan about English football is astonishing. Can you not go and support rugby instead?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I would echo the sentiments of others - 06/07 was great. Hell, I even enjoyed 07/08. The coverage, the stadiums, picking Reading players in my fantasy league team, people in the office knowing who Kevin Doyle was, Alan Hansen moaning about our offside trap. I'd love to have all that back. Even if we don't have a chance at winning the league.

It was great because it was a novelty. Once playing premier league teams becomes the norm, and you are basically a Fulham or a Wigan, just happy to stay up, it'd get dull. Remember Charton fans, for example, wanting Curbishley out because he was failing to take them to the next level? It wasn't that long ago that Reading fans regarded being in the 2nd tier as the promised land, and thought being at this level could never get dull. Once you take it for granted, and you would after a few years, it'd stop being exciting.


Besides, the point about the closed title race isn't that Reading would have no chance if we were in the top flight, it's that nobody apart from that little group of elite clubs ever gets the chance to even compete for, let alone win, the title.

That never used to be the case in England. In fact we used to mock other leagues where there was a permanent elite. People who have only grown up with football in the premiership years often don't even seem to realise it hasn't always been like this, and it used to be a lot better.


ps who the f*** in England calls the premier league "the EPL"?

[papereyes]

10 years ago people moaned about the big 3

Then it was the dominance of the big 4

I don't remember them doing so but the whole Big 4 thing has only really evolved since we've had 4 CL places.

The recent changes are solely due to external money being pumped in.

[Jerry St Clair]

10 years ago people moaned about the big 3

Then it was the dominance of the big 4

Even Dirk is now talking about a big 5 (which I assume doesn't even include 4th place Spurs)

When I were a lad, it was the big 5. Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton, Spurs.

BUT, that didn't mean that those teams finished in the top 5. Off the top of my head I can recall West Ham finishing 3rd, Ipswich finishing 2nd, Southampton finishing 2nd. I also recall Norwich finishing high up in the late 80s and Palace finishing in the top 4 under Coppell.

True, none of them won it, but that's a much healthy state of competition, by any measure.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

10 years ago people moaned about the big 3

Then it was the dominance of the big 4

Even Dirk is now talking about a big 5 (which I assume doesn't even include 4th place Spurs)

When I were a lad, it was the big 5. Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton, Spurs.

BUT, that didn't mean that those teams finished in the top 5. Off the top of my head I can recall West Ham finishing 3rd, Ipswich finishing 2nd, Southampton finishing 2nd. I also recall Norwich finishing high up in the late 80s and Palace finishing in the top 4 under Coppell.

True, none of them won it, but that's a much healthy state of competition, by any measure.

Going back to the 80s, teams finishing in the top 4 included...

Ipswich x3
Aston Villa
WBA
Spurs x2
Everton x4
Watford
Southampton
Nottingham Forest x3
West Ham
Norwich

In the last 10 years
Leeds
Newcastle
Everton
Spurs

In the last 14 years, Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal have all finished in the top four 10 times. Prior to that it had happened once ever.


In the 18 years since the premiership started, the FA Cup has been won by a big 4 club 16 times. The previous 18 FA Cups had winners including West Ham x2, Southampton, Ipswich, Spurs x2, Everton, Coventry and Wimbledon.

[under the tin]

That never used to be the case in England. In fact we used to mock other leagues where there was a permanent elite. People who have only grown up with football in the premiership years often don't even seem to realise it hasn't always been like this, and it used to be a lot better.

I second the motion, Reverend.
The reason why foreign leagues had an elite was because of the concentration of "galactico" footballers within a very few clubs.
The same has happened in England now.
Back in the Elm Park days, watching MoTD, or ITV's Big Match usually threw up interesting contests, because there was a far more even distribution of talent across the clubs. Every yeam had a "star"
If you were watching Chelsea, it was about Ossie, and Alan Hudson; Arsenal, Charlie George; Spurs, Martin Chivers; United, the holy trinity; QPR, Stan Bowles; Leeds, Allan Clarke; Burnley, Ralph Coates; Birmingham City, Trevor Francis; WBA,Jeff Astle; Wolves, Derek Dougan; Newcastle, Supermac; Leicester, Frank Worthington; Ipswich, Paul Mariner; West Ham, Bobby Moore.I could go on..............

[Seal]

10 years ago people moaned about the big 3

Then it was the dominance of the big 4

Even Dirk is now talking about a big 5 (which I assume doesn't even include 4th place Spurs)

When I were a lad, it was the big 5. Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton, Spurs.

BUT, that didn't mean that those teams finished in the top 5. Off the top of my head I can recall West Ham finishing 3rd, Ipswich finishing 2nd, Southampton finishing 2nd. I also recall Norwich finishing high up in the late 80s and Palace finishing in the top 4 under Coppell.

True, none of them won it, but that's a much healthy state of competition, by any measure.

Thanks for that. Was the same when I was a lad. However Dirk specifically said: "the title will be won by one of the big 5 - or realistically just 2 of them". Therefore referred to a 'current' big 5 rather than the 80s version.

I'm still seeing lots of moaning. You people are all criticism and no solutions. Glad I don't work with any you. It's like dealing with my obtuse IT support guy.

[under the tin]

We don't need to provide solutions, my friend.
The inevitable is coming.
The search for ever bigger television revenues, broadcasting their particular footballing brand across the planet, (aided and abetted by Uncle Rupert) will eventually mean that these "Galactico" clubs will cash in properly on a worldwide pay per view league.
Television audiences of literally billions will be tuning in to watch megatsar footballers slugging it out in Los Angeles, Rio, Barcelona.
That will be the day that marks the rebirth of our domestic football.

[Seal]

What's your timeframe for this Utopia?

Football's a pretty slow moving beast. To me this is like fans in the 50s moaning about the perils of the modern day Champions League.

[under the tin]

Oh, if it was only about football !
What's fundamentally changed is now it's all about Money.
The money decisions that drove Mick McCarthy to field a very weakened team, therefore short changing the Wolves fans, because the money in the Prem is more important than progressing in cup competitions. He's not the only manager to have done that.
Sky aren't involved because they care about the game. There's an earner in it. there's an even bigger earner in going European/global.
Oligarches who take over football clubs have yet to convince me that they are involved for the love of the game,or the club concerned.
That Indian bloke who is moving to buy Blackburn rovers, when he said he was a Blackburn fan, I had to reach for the Saxa.
Nah, for them,it's an ego trip, nothing more; and being "the big man"on a worldwide stage>>>>>"the big man"in the EPL.

[Seal]

When exactly was owning a football club not about ego?

Of course it's about money. Every single sports club and governing body in the world is chasing money. Every single one. Don't blame football blame capitalism.

[under the tin]

When exactly was owning a football club not about ego?

Of course it's about money. Every single sports club and governing body in the world is chasing money. Every single one. Don't blame football blame capitalism.

You're right, perhaps I should have developed the preposition.
The ego thing has always been a factor. we all know a certain 70 odd year old who gets in the Turtle, and revels in his profile there.
I suppose the difference today, particularly at the very highest level is the scale of the money involved.
Back in the day, in a 40,000 crowd, there were two millionaires in attendance, and they sat next to each other in the middle seats in the directors' box. Today, the millionaires are wearing the shirts on the pitch, and those two seats are occupied by billionaires. Biilionaires are scarcer.
Jack Hayward (Wolves), Jack Walker(Blackburn), were two card carrying capitalists, but they did in fact have a blind spot in throwing large chunks of their personal wealth at football clubs that they genuinely loved.
I have very serious doubts as to whether the likes of that family who own Man City, or the Yanks at Liverpool have the same depth of feeling towards their respective clubs.
Moving a sporting franchise to another place is not without precedent in this country, and is commonplace in the US.
In a future world league, the franchise for the North west uk could be alloted to United. What is there to stop the Al-Doohdahs, or whoever they are, from moving City, job lot, to Toronto?
After all, it's their £600 million that they spent on playing assets.
An extreme example, maybe, but the difference is that trying the same thing in the Black country, or rural lancashire would certainly have been over the dead bodies of the two chairmen mentioned above.