VAR

1078 posts
User avatar
6ft Kerplunk
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7065
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 10:09
Location: Shoegazing Sheißhaus

Re: VAR

by 6ft Kerplunk » 03 Feb 2020 11:02

Is there a valid reason why VAR isn't used for spotting keepers moving off their line at penalties?

User avatar
Old Man Andrews
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 18461
Joined: 02 Oct 2017 13:06
Location: The South of England

Re: VAR

by Old Man Andrews » 03 Feb 2020 11:07

6ft Kerplunk Is there a valid reason why VAR isn't used for spotting keepers moving off their line at penalties?

Possibly so that they aren't deemed too picky. Every keeper in the history of time has come off his line a bit before a penalty is taken, you have to in order to dive. I think they are allowing the assistant referee to use their judgement as to if that movement is excessive or given the goalkeeper a huge advantage.

Sanguine
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14723
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 03 Feb 2020 16:11

Old Man Andrews
6ft Kerplunk Is there a valid reason why VAR isn't used for spotting keepers moving off their line at penalties?

Possibly so that they aren't deemed too picky. Every keeper in the history of time has come off his line a bit before a penalty is taken, you have to in order to dive. I think they are allowing the assistant referee to use their judgement as to if that movement is excessive or given the goalkeeper a huge advantage.


That, and I think it's sensible. The only way to police it 'properly' would be where any blade of grass can be seen between keeper's back foot and the line. You'll end up with near zero penalties saved.

User avatar
6ft Kerplunk
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7065
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 10:09
Location: Shoegazing Sheißhaus

Re: VAR

by 6ft Kerplunk » 03 Feb 2020 16:18

So why have the rule at all if you're not going to enforce it? They seem quite happy deal in mm for offside that's more difficult to judge.

User avatar
Zammo
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 4316
Joined: 09 Jun 2005 13:22
Location: Back In The Village

Re: VAR

by Zammo » 03 Feb 2020 16:27

Can you imagine that red dotted line from the keepers bum to the white line :lol:


User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13514
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 03 Feb 2020 19:59

Sanguine Yep. I've been a big supporter of VAR, but it is becoming a caricature of itself now. Arguably two pens missed in the Liverpool game (Shane Long had his arms round Firmino's neck, and Fabinho's trip on Ings, after which Liverpool scored their first), and Sterling should have been sent off long before the 2-3 minutes it took to award City a penalty.

Thought the Long one was fair enough. If VAR asked the ref if he saw Long's contact and he did, then there's really no clear and obvious error. Firmino goes down really easy on what looks like minimal actual pressure, once it's clear the ball is sailing over him. If the ref hasn't seen that, then VAR should tell him to take a look on the monitor to make a decision.

Fabinho on Ings is absolutely baffling though. Appears to be clear contact, absolute nailed on.

It has been an absolute horror show of implementation.

Thought it did a really good job on Murray's goal though. Think the ref would have ruled it out as it really did look very much like a handball until the slow down and replays.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13514
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 03 Feb 2020 20:02

6ft Kerplunk So why have the rule at all if you're not going to enforce it? They seem quite happy deal in mm for offside that's more difficult to judge.

They enforce it on blatant offences. It's to encourage keepers not to take a huge step out and narrow the angle unfairly. A few milimeters in a microsecond has no real effect,

User avatar
Royal Rother
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 17840
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 23:22
Location: The handsome bald fella with the blue eyes

Re: VAR

by Royal Rother » 04 Feb 2020 06:50

Snowflake Royal
6ft Kerplunk So why have the rule at all if you're not going to enforce it? They seem quite happy deal in mm for offside that's more difficult to judge.

They enforce it on blatant offences. It's to encourage keepers not to take a huge step out and narrow the angle unfairly. A few milimeters in a microsecond has no real effect,


Well yes, but the same comment applies to the fractional VAR offsides

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13514
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Feb 2020 07:19

Royal Rother
Snowflake Royal
6ft Kerplunk So why have the rule at all if you're not going to enforce it? They seem quite happy deal in mm for offside that's more difficult to judge.

They enforce it on blatant offences. It's to encourage keepers not to take a huge step out and narrow the angle unfairly. A few milimeters in a microsecond has no real effect,


Well yes, but the same comment applies to the fractional VAR offsides

Couple of points there... firstly I don't agree with a milimeter based approach in offside anyway.

Secondly, the scenario is somewhat different in that play carries on pending the check and then results in a free kick and moves on.

Pens, it results in a retake and you can end up in an endless loop of retaking a penalty. Also, there's no change to how either side plays with offside. With pens, you'd force keepers to stay still longer to be sure of not being pulled up and therefore harming their chance of making a save.


User avatar
Franchise FC
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5113
Joined: 22 May 2007 16:24
Location: The Frozen North

Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 04 Feb 2020 08:33

Snowflake Royal
Royal Rother
Snowflake Royal They enforce it on blatant offences. It's to encourage keepers not to take a huge step out and narrow the angle unfairly. A few milimeters in a microsecond has no real effect,


Well yes, but the same comment applies to the fractional VAR offsides

Couple of points there... firstly I don't agree with a milimeter based approach in offside anyway.

Secondly, the scenario is somewhat different in that play carries on pending the check and then results in a free kick and moves on.

Pens, it results in a retake and you can end up in an endless loop of retaking a penalty. Also, there's no change to how either side plays with offside. With pens, you'd force keepers to stay still longer to be sure of not being pulled up and therefore harming their chance of making a save.

Isn't that entirely the point ?
If, as you say, staying still longer means less penalties are saved, then by definition moving (against the laws of the game) gives the goalkeeper an advantage he shouldn't have.

User avatar
Royal Rother
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 17840
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 23:22
Location: The handsome bald fella with the blue eyes

Re: VAR

by Royal Rother » 04 Feb 2020 09:40

Snowflake Royal
Royal Rother
Snowflake Royal They enforce it on blatant offences. It's to encourage keepers not to take a huge step out and narrow the angle unfairly. A few milimeters in a microsecond has no real effect,


Well yes, but the same comment applies to the fractional VAR offsides

Couple of points there... firstly I don't agree with a milimeter based approach in offside anyway.

Secondly, the scenario is somewhat different in that play carries on pending the check and then results in a free kick and moves on.

Pens, it results in a retake and you can end up in an endless loop of retaking a penalty. Also, there's no change to how either side plays with offside. With pens, you'd force keepers to stay still longer to be sure of not being pulled up and therefore harming their chance of making a save.


Of course it’s a different scenario but your principle of millimetres in a microsecond being an irrelevance applies in both cases, especially so in offsides when it is often less clear when the ball actually leaves the foot of the passer.

Sanguine
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14723
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 04 Feb 2020 09:47

Franchise FC
Snowflake Royal
Royal Rother
Well yes, but the same comment applies to the fractional VAR offsides

Couple of points there... firstly I don't agree with a milimeter based approach in offside anyway.

Secondly, the scenario is somewhat different in that play carries on pending the check and then results in a free kick and moves on.

Pens, it results in a retake and you can end up in an endless loop of retaking a penalty. Also, there's no change to how either side plays with offside. With pens, you'd force keepers to stay still longer to be sure of not being pulled up and therefore harming their chance of making a save.

Isn't that entirely the point ?
If, as you say, staying still longer means less penalties are saved, then by definition moving (against the laws of the game) gives the goalkeeper an advantage he shouldn't have.


Like athletes might learn to 'anticipate' the starting gun (false starts are subject to a 0.100 seconds threshold), so goalkeepers are trying to time their movement off their line and to the side to give themselves the best possible chance of saving a penalty. The 'best' possible scenario for the keeper is that he moves off his line a millisecond after the kick is taken. But a) those margins are impossible to measure (a keeper's foot could be on and then off the line during the fraction of a second that the ball is in contact with the taker's boot), and b) the logical conclusion of enforcing the rule strictly and literally is that keepers are essentially stood still until the ball is nearly past them.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13514
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Feb 2020 13:09

Royal Rother
Snowflake Royal
Royal Rother
Well yes, but the same comment applies to the fractional VAR offsides

Couple of points there... firstly I don't agree with a milimeter based approach in offside anyway.

Secondly, the scenario is somewhat different in that play carries on pending the check and then results in a free kick and moves on.

Pens, it results in a retake and you can end up in an endless loop of retaking a penalty. Also, there's no change to how either side plays with offside. With pens, you'd force keepers to stay still longer to be sure of not being pulled up and therefore harming their chance of making a save.


Of course it’s a different scenario but your principle of millimetres in a microsecond being an irrelevance applies in both cases, especially so in offsides when it is often less clear when the ball actually leaves the foot of the passer.

And I said I don't agree with millimeters in offside anyway.


User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13514
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Feb 2020 13:11

Sanguine
Franchise FC
Snowflake Royal Couple of points there... firstly I don't agree with a milimeter based approach in offside anyway.

Secondly, the scenario is somewhat different in that play carries on pending the check and then results in a free kick and moves on.

Pens, it results in a retake and you can end up in an endless loop of retaking a penalty. Also, there's no change to how either side plays with offside. With pens, you'd force keepers to stay still longer to be sure of not being pulled up and therefore harming their chance of making a save.

Isn't that entirely the point ?
If, as you say, staying still longer means less penalties are saved, then by definition moving (against the laws of the game) gives the goalkeeper an advantage he shouldn't have.


Like athletes might learn to 'anticipate' the starting gun (false starts are subject to a 0.100 seconds threshold), so goalkeepers are trying to time their movement off their line and to the side to give themselves the best possible chance of saving a penalty. The 'best' possible scenario for the keeper is that he moves off his line a millisecond after the kick is taken. But a) those margins are impossible to measure (a keeper's foot could be on and then off the line during the fraction of a second that the ball is in contact with the taker's boot), and b) the logical conclusion of enforcing the rule strictly and literally is that keepers are essentially stood still until the ball is nearly past them.

Thanks Sangers.

User avatar
BR0B0T
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 10546
Joined: 08 Nov 2016 23:25

Re: VAR

by BR0B0T » 04 Feb 2020 22:27

Snowflake Royal
Royal Rother
Snowflake Royal Couple of points there... firstly I don't agree with a milimeter based approach in offside anyway.

Secondly, the scenario is somewhat different in that play carries on pending the check and then results in a free kick and moves on.

Pens, it results in a retake and you can end up in an endless loop of retaking a penalty. Also, there's no change to how either side plays with offside. With pens, you'd force keepers to stay still longer to be sure of not being pulled up and therefore harming their chance of making a save.


Of course it’s a different scenario but your principle of millimetres in a microsecond being an irrelevance applies in both cases, especially so in offsides when it is often less clear when the ball actually leaves the foot of the passer.

And I said I don't agree with millimeters in offside anyway.


how do you measure it then

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 13514
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 04 Feb 2020 22:52

BR0B0T
Snowflake Royal
Royal Rother
Of course it’s a different scenario but your principle of millimetres in a microsecond being an irrelevance applies in both cases, especially so in offsides when it is often less clear when the ball actually leaves the foot of the passer.

And I said I don't agree with millimeters in offside anyway.


how do you measure it then

You know how they do it in cricket with Umpire's call? Like that. Has to be clear and obvious error from the Lino.

Taking into account the margin of error in measurement might be sensible.

User avatar
stealthpapes
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7314
Joined: 05 Jun 2013 13:25
Location: proverbs 26:11

Re: VAR

by stealthpapes » 05 Feb 2020 12:36

Can anyone help me with Shrewsbury's last night, please?

Sanguine
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 14723
Joined: 27 Feb 2013 14:36

Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 05 Feb 2020 12:40

stealthpapes Can anyone help me with Shrewsbury's last night, please?


Shrewsbury boss spot on here to highlight that VAR shouldn't be used to go so far back into a move, because it becomes subjective as to how far back remains relevant to the goal.

Scott Golbourne was offside in the build up to the goal, about 12 seconds before the ball hit the back of the net


Goal on the link below. To emphasise how far back in play the decision went, the still above has already happened when the 'goal' highlight starts at 1:41, Golbourne already has the ball.

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2020/02/v ... hrewsbury/

User avatar
Silver Fox
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 19919
Joined: 15 Apr 2004 10:02
Location: From the Andes to the indies in my undies

Re: VAR

by Silver Fox » 05 Feb 2020 12:43

That's one of my big issues with VAR tbf, how far back is it worth looking at? It's mental that a corner can be given erroneously that a team could score from but VAR wouldn't be used to fix that clear and obvious error because the corner decision was such a long time before the goal.

User avatar
Old Man Andrews
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 18461
Joined: 02 Oct 2017 13:06
Location: The South of England

Re: VAR

by Old Man Andrews » 05 Feb 2020 12:45

Silver Fox That's one of my big issues with VAR tbf, how far back is it worth looking at? It's mental that a corner can be given erroneously that a team could score from but VAR wouldn't be used to fix that clear and obvious error because the corner decision was such a long time before the goal.

Offside calls should relate purely to the player who scored the goal. Sick of this nonsense with someone being offside in the build up to the goal totally unrelated to the player who scored.

1078 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

It is currently 12 Jul 2020 01:56