VAR

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BR0B0T
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Re: VAR

by BR0B0T » 23 Jun 2019 20:18

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BR0B0T Surely something like GPS would be better for offside


How exactly?


obvs haven't thought it through...GPS can be very accurate now

tech in clothing and ball so we can position them and know when force was applied to the ball and by which* player

*phase of play, interfering etc still issues but easier resolved

prolly possible to do this real-time with cameras rather than video review

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Re: VAR

by BR0B0T » 23 Jun 2019 20:19

or just get each team to bring a panel of lawyers to the game and contest every call!

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Re: VAR

by URZZZZ » 23 Jun 2019 20:26

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URZZZZ Was against VAR before tonight but open to improvements in the system. But after tonight, I'm shocked anyone can defend it. So many errors in that 3rd goal, Scotland's sub problem, the retake of the penalty was ludicrous and the referee failing to add any injury time when it nearly took 10 minutes. VAR is the collapse of an already rapidly declining game IMO unless they fix it very quickly

So VAR saw an objective issue the ref missed (keeper off the line). VAR correct, and the ref failed to add additional time - Ref error, but VAR is at fault for it?


If you’re going to punish penalty infringements, I’d like to see consistency. There’s been cases of encroachment not disallowed by VAR but the goalie moving off their line has. If you’re going to be strict with one aspect, you have to maintain it over a wide basis. Of course, you can attribute that to the ref but it all came about as a direct cause of VAR and refs not really understanding the rules of it

Anyway as a separate point, if goalies are fixed to their line, you’d see nearly every penalty go in. Rules are rules and that, but as long as you’re not going overboard I don’t think it’s a problem

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Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 23 Jun 2019 22:24

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ Was against VAR before tonight but open to improvements in the system. But after tonight, I'm shocked anyone can defend it. So many errors in that 3rd goal, Scotland's sub problem, the retake of the penalty was ludicrous and the referee failing to add any injury time when it nearly took 10 minutes. VAR is the collapse of an already rapidly declining game IMO unless they fix it very quickly

So VAR saw an objective issue the ref missed (keeper off the line). VAR correct, and the ref failed to add additional time - Ref error, but VAR is at fault for it?


Anyway as a separate point, if goalies are fixed to their line, you’d see nearly every penalty go in. Rules are rules and that, but as long as you’re not going overboard I don’t think it’s a problem

Nonsense. In fact we saw a penalty save the other day in Australia v Norway. And one missed.

Enforce the rules and maybe players will start obeying them.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 24 Jun 2019 09:29

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Football's laws are, at least in my opinion, a lot more subjective than those other sports too.



This remains a red herring, in my view. If football is a subjective game then VAR or not it remains subject to the opinion of the referee in many decisions that the officials make. VAR doesn't change that, it just allows the officials the opportunity to review replays and multiple angles to come to a better subjective decision. That you might argue the decision reached is still up for debate isn't a failure of the system.

We saw the best and worst of VAR in England's game with Cameroon yesterday - to my mind the referee arrived at the correct decision in all but the final incident (this is the good), the tackle on Steph Houghton, but I suspect there was a big dose of diplomacy in that yellow card, and I'm more perplexed at the incidents that weren't referred by VAR, including the fourth minute elbow (the bad). It also took far too long again - as in most games I watch where VAR is being used, the replays have already been shown multiples times on TV often before the referee sees it again, or even signals the check. Not playing all incidents on the screen in the stadium only antagonised the Cameroon players, too.


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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 24 Jun 2019 11:49

For me, it's got so many potential flaws that I don't think I'll ever be a fan.

1. The time it takes is a major headache. If you can't tell from one or two slowmo views then the original decision should stand (same as umpire's call in cricket and even a lot of the time in rugby when the referee will say something like 'is there a reason I can't ...')

2. Not allowing the PLAYERS, let alone the crowd to see the piece being reviewed - if the Cameroon players could have seen the pictures last night, there'd have been a lot less protesting (although probably not none)

3. As I've said before, it's changing the way assistant referees are seeing incidents. When a player is potentially offside they tend to keep the flag down. Fine if a goal is scored because it can be checked, but if it results in a corner or free kick - no check. Then what if a goal is scored from the resultant set play ?

4. Even when VAR is used, and the result is crystal clear, the referee can still get it wrong (see last night's last minute tackle by Cameroon)

5. When a goal is scored, any potential 'touch' of an opposition player is scrutinised (see Wilson for England), yet the same 'touch' the other way is very rarely reviewed. Yes, there was one in the Switzerland game, but they seem to be the exception

6. Offsides that are close ! When is the ball kicked by the player passing it ? Is it when his foot first makes contact with the ball ? If so, Lingard was onside and goal stands, England go on to be runners up in the Nations League. Mata's goal early in the FA Cup - how can one hair on his kneecap be enough to deem him offside.

7. To celebrate or not to celebrate - if football loses it's highs and lows of emotion waiting to see whether a goal is going to be reviewed I see that as a slippery slope

I'm sure I'll come up with a few more

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Re: VAR

by 6ft Kerplunk » 24 Jun 2019 11:57

Franchise FC 2. Not allowing the PLAYERS, let alone the crowd to see the piece being reviewed - if the Cameroon players could have seen the pictures last night, there'd have been a lot less protesting (although probably not none)


Fully agree with this. For the offside stuff is makes sense to stick the picture up on the scoreboard showing how the decision was made.

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 24 Jun 2019 11:58

6ft Kerplunk
Franchise FC 2. Not allowing the PLAYERS, let alone the crowd to see the piece being reviewed - if the Cameroon players could have seen the pictures last night, there'd have been a lot less protesting (although probably not none)


Fully agree with this. For the offside stuff is makes sense to stick the picture up on the scoreboard showing how the decision was made.


Given that the referee's screen is at the side of the pitch, let the captain and the coach see why the decision is being made, perhaps.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 24 Jun 2019 12:04

Franchise FC For me, it's got so many potential flaws that I don't think I'll ever be a fan.

1. The time it takes is a major headache. If you can't tell from one or two slowmo views then the original decision should stand (same as umpire's call in cricket and even a lot of the time in rugby when the referee will say something like 'is there a reason I can't ...')



This remains the major flaw, for me. And I think it's because the fundamentals of how VAR is used are wrong. I'm going to refer back to rugby again - like in football, the on-field official remains in charge, his or her decision is final. But in rugby, the TMO raises subjective issues with a recommendation, i.e. 'I think the players has ducked into the tackle and used his shoulder, this is dangerous play' - the referee is then invited to agree or disagree with the decision.

We're obviously not party to discussions between referees and the VAR officials, but in football at the moment the principles seems to be only that referees are invited to 'look again' at an incident, on which of course they have already made up their mind once. The way to speed up VAR is for the officials to signal a check based on a recommendation.

Further down the line I'd like VAR discussions to be broadcast - again like in rugby, where you might not agree with the end result, but it is clear that certain protocols are being followed.


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Re: VAR

by BR0B0T » 24 Jun 2019 12:20

VARacist

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 24 Jun 2019 12:24

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Hoop Blah Football's laws are, at least in my opinion, a lot more subjective than those other sports too.


This remains a red herring, in my view. If football is a subjective game then VAR or not it remains subject to the opinion of the referee in many decisions that the officials make. VAR doesn't change that, it just allows the officials the opportunity to review replays and multiple angles to come to a better subjective decision. That you might argue the decision reached is still up for debate isn't a failure of the system..


The comment about subjectivity in the laws was in response to the notion that other sports, like Cricket and Tennis, use replays/technology more successfully that Football does so far (arguably the lbw law is subjective but DRS has been accepted by most to be largely accurate and, with umpires call, they've come up with a method of the process taking that into effect).

I'm all for the use of technology to support the factual decisions but when it's subjective you'll always get what some people consider to be incorrect decisions because it's all a matter of opinion.

I do take your point that the VAR is just giving the referee more information from which to form that opinion though. I just don't think, and never have, that the negative impacts are really worth the very few decisions that might be changed because of it.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 24 Jun 2019 12:28

Hoop Blah I just don't think, and never have, that the negative impacts are really worth the very few decisions that might be changed because of it.


At the moment, no, I'd probably agree that they aren't - 15 minutes additional time added in yesterday's game, most of which was for VAR checks.
But the problem with VAR is the process. Iron that out, and it will be no more contentious than the DRS system you mention.

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 24 Jun 2019 12:31

Zip Agree with Vic. Football is very much stop and start these days. Just look at the amount of injury times in many games these days.
VAR will take time but surely it has to be a fairer way of ensuring the right decisions are made and thereby reducing decisions going the way of “bigger” teams.


Victor Meldrew As for the stoppage time I would have agreed with Hoops about other sports having natural breaks in play but as football injuries and set pieces now seem too take forever I am no longer convinced that football is the free-flowing sport that it is perceived to be.


I take both of your points about the game being a bit more stop start, but I meant more around passages/phases of play running merging together without a natural break to review being the issue more than the stop start nature of the game.

See the two penalty incident in the Portugal vs Switzerland game the other week. In Tennis or Cricket, and probably Rugby, one passage of play doesn't really flow into another (yeah in Tennis you may have a long rally that has a close line call or something that does).


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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 24 Jun 2019 12:33

Sanguine
Hoop Blah I just don't think, and never have, that the negative impacts are really worth the very few decisions that might be changed because of it.


At the moment, no, I'd probably agree that they aren't - 15 minutes additional time added in yesterday's game, most of which was for VAR checks.
But the problem with VAR is the process. Iron that out, and it will be no more contentious than the DRS system you mention.


I'm not convinced that the process can be ironed out for football though.

I think the reality is it's always going to struggle to fit in around a sport like football, at least without negatively impacting it.

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Re: VAR

by The Enfield Royal71 » 24 Jun 2019 13:58

I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to var (in rugby) as It is something I have a huge technical understanding of

In football It wont work and I fed this back to the fa when they were tendering as they were trying to interpret too many complex moving parts. I hate to say it but I sent an email to them saying "I told you so".

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 24 Jun 2019 14:55

The Enfield Royal71 I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to var (in rugby) as It is something I have a huge technical understanding of

In football It wont work and I fed this back to the fa when they were tendering as they were trying to interpret too many complex moving parts. I hate to say it but I sent an email to them saying "I told you so".


Why don't you explain to us then?

This is the most interested* I've been in an answer since OMA explained that he had extensive knowledge of goalkeeping, and then refused to discuss actual goalkeeping.

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Re: VAR

by The Enfield Royal71 » 24 Jun 2019 14:56

Sanguine
The Enfield Royal71 I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to var (in rugby) as It is something I have a huge technical understanding of

In football It wont work and I fed this back to the fa when they were tendering as they were trying to interpret too many complex moving parts. I hate to say it but I sent an email to them saying "I told you so".


Why don't you explain to us then?


It will just go over your heads.

The gist of it is that football is trying to interpret too many variables into a limited technology that isn't designed for such fine variables. Not like goal line technology where it is pretty simple but great.

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Re: VAR

by The Enfield Royal71 » 24 Jun 2019 14:57

Sanguine
The Enfield Royal71 I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to var (in rugby) as It is something I have a huge technical understanding of

In football It wont work and I fed this back to the fa when they were tendering as they were trying to interpret too many complex moving parts. I hate to say it but I sent an email to them saying "I told you so".


Why don't you explain to us then?

This is the most interested* I've been in an answer since OMA explained that he had extensive knowledge of goalkeeping, and then refused to discuss actual goalkeeping.


He thought he was an expert at football knowledge but coaches bracknell town under 12s......

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 24 Jun 2019 14:58

The Enfield Royal71
Sanguine
The Enfield Royal71 I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to var (in rugby) as It is something I have a huge technical understanding of

In football It wont work and I fed this back to the fa when they were tendering as they were trying to interpret too many complex moving parts. I hate to say it but I sent an email to them saying "I told you so".


Why don't you explain to us then?


It will just go over your heads.

The gist of it is that football is trying to interpret too many variables into a limited technology that isn't designed for such fine variables. Not like goal line technology where it is pretty simple but great.


A lot of people said that. I'm interested in some expert opinion.

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Re: VAR

by genome » 24 Jun 2019 14:59

He's posting like a helmet across the boards today for some reason, ignore him

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