England - the future....

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bcubed
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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 12 Oct 2019 12:00

Hoop Blah
Zip Fair comment and the point about two games in such a short turnaround is justified. However do you think Southgate knows his best starting line up?


I think he's probably pretty close it yeah. The balance in midfield will be the main area for contention, and perhaps the best pairing at centre half.

Do you really expect the England manager to have a clear cut starting eleven though? Despite the doom and gloom about depth of talent (at times) he's got a decent amount of players all competing for a place in the side. There should always be enough competition for a number of places that the team could be open for debate depending on form and fitness.

If, and it's a very big IF, all players were fit and in close to their best form, who would you pick?

TAA vs Walker vs Trippier
Stones vs Gomez vs Maguire
Henderson vs Oxlade-Chamberlain vs Alli vs Barkley vs Mount vs Maddison vs Loftus-Cheek vs Winks
Sterling vs Rashford vs Sancho vs Hudson-Odoi

I think he wants to play 4-3-3 but he'd also quite like to play 4-2-3-1 to get someone like Alli playing in behind Kane. Imagine a forward line or Sterling and Sancho with Kane and Alli from 18 months ago when they were linking up so well.


I think we should pick all the double barrelled namers! For some reason they're all excellent

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2019 12:57

Hoop Blah
Zip Fair comment and the point about two games in such a short turnaround is justified. However do you think Southgate knows his best starting line up?


I think he's probably pretty close it yeah. The balance in midfield will be the main area for contention, and perhaps the best pairing at centre half.

Do you really expect the England manager to have a clear cut starting eleven though? Despite the doom and gloom about depth of talent (at times) he's got a decent amount of players all competing for a place in the side. There should always be enough competition for a number of places that the team could be open for debate depending on form and fitness.

If, and it's a very big IF, all players were fit and in close to their best form, who would you pick?

TAA vs Walker vs Trippier
Stones vs Gomez vs Maguire
Henderson vs Oxlade-Chamberlain vs Alli vs Barkley vs Mount vs Maddison vs Loftus-Cheek vs Winks
Sterling vs Rashford vs Sancho vs Hudson-Odoi

Gomez is an interesting example of how to consider club form. His form for Liverpool is not good and he has fallen behind Matip. But, looking at the options available for England, I still think he's our best choice. It seems like Stones has had potential for years but still hasn't become consistent and fixed his errors and lapses in concentration.

Then there is Keane, who is playing every week in a fairly consistent way, but will realistically be any more than a competent mid table premier league defender.

I'd go for Gomez. It's not like we're picking a late 20s / early 30s players on past reputation; he is realistically our best prospect and we should be building our best backline.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 12 Oct 2019 17:15

stealthpapes
URZZZZ
I do rate Declan Rice but England may be a step up too high for him. He’s better at regaining possession and doing a simple pass. Not really needed in an England team to be fair


Sorry but what? It really is needed.

WestYorksRoyal I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?


Well, the bit in bold, quite. And it links to the bonus rant. We could see it wasn't working and from ca. 2003 to 2008, nothing was done to fix it. They're the best two midfielders, throw them in, they'll work it out. Seemingly no attempt to work out how to develop a gameplan around them.

I don't really know what the solution is, apart from reform of both youth coaching systems and coaching training and hoping it filters through, but after 20 odd years of watching England and the associated media/fan industry make the same mistakes concerning how to approach the squad, matches and tournaments, one has to say there's something fundamentally broken up there.


Is a holding midfielder needed apart from against the top teams? I'd argue not. Henderson is good enough to hold against the majority of teams

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Oct 2019 17:29

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ
I do rate Declan Rice but England may be a step up too high for him. He’s better at regaining possession and doing a simple pass. Not really needed in an England team to be fair


Sorry but what? It really is needed.

WestYorksRoyal I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?


Well, the bit in bold, quite. And it links to the bonus rant. We could see it wasn't working and from ca. 2003 to 2008, nothing was done to fix it. They're the best two midfielders, throw them in, they'll work it out. Seemingly no attempt to work out how to develop a gameplan around them.

I don't really know what the solution is, apart from reform of both youth coaching systems and coaching training and hoping it filters through, but after 20 odd years of watching England and the associated media/fan industry make the same mistakes concerning how to approach the squad, matches and tournaments, one has to say there's something fundamentally broken up there.


Is a holding midfielder needed apart from against the top teams? I'd argue not. Henderson is good enough to hold against the majority of teams

Maybe Rice above Henderson against big teams. But never both. Being able to control the ball and match them in terms of possession is more important. 2 holding players not enough when you're conceding 70% of possession against top class attacking teams. They will break you eventually.

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Re: England - the future....

by stealthpapes » 12 Oct 2019 17:55

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ
I do rate Declan Rice but England may be a step up too high for him. He’s better at regaining possession and doing a simple pass. Not really needed in an England team to be fair


Sorry but what? It really is needed.

WestYorksRoyal I think winning Euro 2020 or WC 2022 would be hard in any circumstances given there are better teams. But right we're simply not giving ourselves the best chance. Tonight's result doesn't matter, but I'm still pissed because it's the issues we all know about repeating themselves and we never learn.

Bonus rant: only the English would waste Scholes on the left wing and push him into early retirement to accommodate a hopelessly unbalanced midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. One of the greatest midfielders of his generation; the great Spanish team would have fitted him in. Have we learned? Winks not in the same class, but at least his game is built around giving his team mates options and trying to dictate the game. Why would we not include a player of that ilk when the problem is so oxf*rd obvious?


Well, the bit in bold, quite. And it links to the bonus rant. We could see it wasn't working and from ca. 2003 to 2008, nothing was done to fix it. They're the best two midfielders, throw them in, they'll work it out. Seemingly no attempt to work out how to develop a gameplan around them.

I don't really know what the solution is, apart from reform of both youth coaching systems and coaching training and hoping it filters through, but after 20 odd years of watching England and the associated media/fan industry make the same mistakes concerning how to approach the squad, matches and tournaments, one has to say there's something fundamentally broken up there.


Is a holding midfielder needed apart from against the top teams? I'd argue not. Henderson is good enough to hold against the majority of teams


Almost certainly, even if its only for the team to get used to the shape, tempo and tactics.

Being able to control the ball and match them in terms of possession is more important.


yeah this. Someone who can "regain possession and make a simple pass".


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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 13 Oct 2019 11:00

stealthpapes
URZZZZ
stealthpapes
Sorry but what? It really is needed.



Well, the bit in bold, quite. And it links to the bonus rant. We could see it wasn't working and from ca. 2003 to 2008, nothing was done to fix it. They're the best two midfielders, throw them in, they'll work it out. Seemingly no attempt to work out how to develop a gameplan around them.

I don't really know what the solution is, apart from reform of both youth coaching systems and coaching training and hoping it filters through, but after 20 odd years of watching England and the associated media/fan industry make the same mistakes concerning how to approach the squad, matches and tournaments, one has to say there's something fundamentally broken up there.


Is a holding midfielder needed apart from against the top teams? I'd argue not. Henderson is good enough to hold against the majority of teams


Almost certainly, even if its only for the team to get used to the shape, tempo and tactics.

Being able to control the ball and match them in terms of possession is more important.


yeah this. Someone who can "regain possession and make a simple pass".


According to one of today's papers Harry Winks is the answer-really?
IIIRC the moderate Eric Dier was previously the answer but I can't remember the question.
It is bad enough having 2 Spursy types in Trippier and Rose in the team although I suspect not for much longer.

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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 13 Oct 2019 11:02

Victor Meldrew
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URZZZZ
Is a holding midfielder needed apart from against the top teams? I'd argue not. Henderson is good enough to hold against the majority of teams


Almost certainly, even if its only for the team to get used to the shape, tempo and tactics.

Being able to control the ball and match them in terms of possession is more important.


yeah this. Someone who can "regain possession and make a simple pass".


According to one of today's papers Harry Winks is the answer-really?
IIIRC the moderate Eric Dier was previously the answer but I can't remember the question.
It is bad enough having 2 Spursy types in Trippier and Rose in the team although I suspect not for much longer.



Paging WestYorksRoyal to the thread!

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 13 Oct 2019 11:54

Stand by my view. I'd rather there was a better option than Winks, but he is the only option who plays the role we're missing. I'd love to see TAA end up in midfield, but would be a stupid move right now

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 13 Oct 2019 11:55

bcubed
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stealthpapes
Almost certainly, even if its only for the team to get used to the shape, tempo and tactics.



yeah this. Someone who can "regain possession and make a simple pass".


According to one of today's papers Harry Winks is the answer-really?
IIIRC the moderate Eric Dier was previously the answer but I can't remember the question.
It is bad enough having 2 Spursy types in Trippier and Rose in the team although I suspect not for much longer.



Paging WestYorksRoyal to the thread!


I hadn't read the earlier posts but Winks is somebody who doesn't always even get in the Spurs side (ditto Rose) and is a bit like Scott Parker, somebody who appears, people talk about and hey-ho he is in the England side.
The same could be said about Ward-Prowse.
Moderate players who don't do much of anything.
I think Henderson fell into this category in his early days (as did Milner) but his all-round game (apart from scoring goals) has come on a bundle under the tutelage of Klopp.


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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 13 Oct 2019 11:57

WestYorksRoyal Stand by my view. I'd rather there was a better option than Winks, but he is the only option who plays the role we're missing. I'd love to see TAA end up in midfield, but would be a stupid move right now


Agree about Trent-like Gerrard he started at right-back in the first team as a way of getting him into the side but is by nature a midfielder.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 13 Oct 2019 11:57

WestYorksRoyal Stand by my view. I'd rather there was a better option than Winks, but he is the only option who plays the role we're missing. I'd love to see TAA end up in midfield, but would be a stupid move right now


I just think Winks is too average, too safe, not enough drive or penetration. We have too many players like that already. Although you're not wrong when you say there aren't many better options. An old Jack Wilshere is what this team is lacking. Shame his injuries have caught up with him

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Re: England - the future....

by BR0B0T » 13 Oct 2019 19:35

Victor Meldrew
WestYorksRoyal Stand by my view. I'd rather there was a better option than Winks, but he is the only option who plays the role we're missing. I'd love to see TAA end up in midfield, but would be a stupid move right now


Agree about Trent-like Gerrard he started at right-back in the first team as a way of getting him into the side but is by nature a midfielder.


ahh...didn't realise this, makes sense though! Gr8 going forward not so good (relatively) at defending

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 13 Oct 2019 19:40

BR0B0T
Victor Meldrew
WestYorksRoyal Stand by my view. I'd rather there was a better option than Winks, but he is the only option who plays the role we're missing. I'd love to see TAA end up in midfield, but would be a stupid move right now


Agree about Trent-like Gerrard he started at right-back in the first team as a way of getting him into the side but is by nature a midfielder.


ahh...didn't realise this, makes sense though! Gr8 going forward not so good (relatively) at defending


The Man U lad is the direct opposite-a good tackler (rare with full-backs these days) but not great going forward.
The two combined could be the future for England.


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Re: England - the future....

by 6ft Kerplunk » 14 Oct 2019 12:47

Winks is just a very home grown Spursy type of midfielder in my opinion. The type that in the 80s would've ended up at Norwich having failed to push on.

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Re: England - the future....

by Franchise FC » 14 Oct 2019 18:10

Real pity that Maddison is unfit.

He may be the long term answer.

Reminds me - if Titus Bramble is the answer, what the bloody hell was the question ?

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Re: England - the future....

by AthleticoSpizz » 14 Oct 2019 19:06

Mings starts

For that reason alone..
Come on Bulgaria

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Re: England - the future....

by tidus_mi2 » 14 Oct 2019 19:39

AthleticoSpizz Mings starts

For that reason alone..
Come on Bulgaria

Want England to win but hopefully Mings gets embarrassed.

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Re: England - the future....

by AthleticoSpizz » 14 Oct 2019 19:44

That, or he comes up against a player with the same ‘work ethics’

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 14 Oct 2019 20:18

Kane's link up play is incredibly underrated. Big involvement in 2 goals

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Re: England - the future....

by ayjaydee » 14 Oct 2019 20:28

Chances of this game lasting 90 minutes getting more remote.

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