Long - Time to go.

[Ian Royal]

I like the way most of those players have made considerably fewer appearances than Long, yet have the same goal tally. It's great when snowball puts up stats that are completely counter-productive to his argument.

1) 2, Patrick Agyemang, QPR 0 (8) - 1 in 0 supersub
2) 2, David Clarkson, Bristol City 3 (5) - 1 in 1.5
=2) 2, Freddie Eastwood, Coventry 3 (1) - 1 in 1.5
4) 2, Tarmo Kink, Middlesboro 5 (5) - 1 in 2.5
=4) 2, James Hayter, Doncaster 5 (2) - 1 in 2.5
=4) 2, Matty Fryatt, Leicester 5 (4) - 1 in 2.5
=4) 2, Theo Robinson, Millwall 5 (1) - 1 in 2.5
2, Tamas Priskin, Ipswich 6 (6) - 1 in 3
9) 2, Ian Hulme, Preston 7 (1) - 1 in 3.5
10) 2, Ched Evans, Sheffield Utd 8 (4) - 1 in 4
=10) 2, Steve Howard, Leicester 8 (5) - 1 in 4
12) 2, Martyn Waghorn, Leicester 9 (1) - in 4.5
13) 2, Nadir Ciftci, Portsmouth 11 appearances - 1 in 5.5
=13) 2, Jonathon Forte, Scunthorpe 11 (2) - 1 in 5.5
15) 2, Shane Long, Reading 13 (0) - 1 in 6.5
16) 2, Richard Creswell, Sheffield Utd. 14 (0) - 1 in 7

[Snowball]

I like the way most of those players have made considerably fewer appearances than Long, yet have the same goal tally. It's great when snowball puts up stats that are completely counter-productive to his argument.

Not even slightly. I am not arguing about goals to games
I'm talking about goals, actual, and the stats are the stats
are the stats. Some of those "failing" are very expensive players
or highly-rated players, or players people say we should buy

Chris Boyd, 101 GOALS in 145 appearances for Rangers, 7 in 17 for Scotland. 12 Starts (1) Compared to Shane's 13 (0)
Michael Chopra, of Premiership quality
Craig Bellamy, Still, easily a Premiership player
Matty Fryatt, recently suggested as a good buy for us
Priskin,
Waghorn,
Ched Evans,
Rob Hulse, a player many think we should get in
Utaka,
TOMMY SMITH, "our saviour"
Marlon King,
McGoldrick,
Robbie Earnshaw,
Scott McDonald,
Nathan Tyson, has been suggested as a decent buy
David Nugent, "another player "we should get in"
Grant Holt. another player some think we should get in

These are serious-names, mostly top-top players

and Lita (ho-ho)

[Snowball]

I like the way most of those players have made considerably fewer appearances than Long, yet have the same goal tally. It's great when snowball puts up stats that are completely counter-productive to his argument.

1) 2, Patrick Agyemang, QPR 0 (8) - 1 in 0 supersub 2 in 8 appearances
2) 2, David Clarkson, Bristol City 3 (5) - 1 in 1.5 2 in 8 appearances
=2) 2, Freddie Eastwood, Coventry 3 (1) - 1 in 1.5 2 in 8 appearances GOOD
4) 2, Tarmo Kink, Middlesboro 5 (5) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 10 appearances
=4) 2, James Hayter, Doncaster 5 (2) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 7 appearances
=4) 2, Matty Fryatt, Leicester 5 (4) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 9 appearances
=4) 2, Theo Robinson, Millwall 5 (1) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 6 appearances
2, Tamas Priskin, Ipswich 6 (6) - 1 in 3 2 in TWELVE appearances
9) 2, Ian Hulme, Preston 7 (1) - 1 in 3.5 2 in 8 appearances
10) 2, Ched Evans, Sheffield Utd 8 (4) - 1 in 4 2 in TWELVE appearances
=10) 2, Steve Howard, Leicester 8 (5) - 1 in 4 2 in THIRTEEN appearances
12) 2, Martyn Waghorn, Leicester 9 (1) - in 4.5 2 in TEN appearances
13) 2, Nadir Ciftci, Portsmouth 11 appearances - 1 in 5.5 2 in 11 appearances
=13) 2, Jonathon Forte, Scunthorpe 11 (2) - 1 in 5.5 2 in THIRTEEN appearances
15) 2, Shane Long, Reading 13 (0) - 1 in 6.5 2 in THIRTEEN starts
16) 2, Richard Creswell, Sheffield Utd. 14 (0) - 1 in 7 2 in THIRTEEN starts

Ian Royal cheats in figures shock. Take Priskin. That's TWELVE appearances, not 6

You gonna take the guys who've scored just 1, or the guys who've failed to score, or the guys who've managed 3 playing most games?

You actually checked to see if these guys scored from starts or as sub?

[Ian Royal]

Everyone can see the numbers and make their own decision snowy. Just emphasising how must of those players have started significantly fewer games than Long so justifying his poor scoring rate by using their absolute goals scored is very very misleading.

I only waste my time researching stats I believe are actually of some use and can be used as fair comparisons, so I won't be digging any deeper into any of that nonsense unnecessarily thanks.

[Snowball]

=4) 2, Matty Fryatt, Leicester 5 (4) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 9 appearances

Both goals scored as a sub in losing 4-3 at Norwich


NEXT!!


Tut-Tut Palm-Tree Boy

[Ian Royal]

=4) 2, Matty Fryatt, Leicester 5 (4) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 9 appearances

Both goals scored as a sub in losing 4-3 at Norwich


NEXT!!


Tut-Tut Palm-Tree Boy

It's still a better scoring record than Long's this season.

[Kitson12]

All these guys, all "strikers" have only scored 2 league goals this season

2, Michael Chopra, Cardiff 7 (0) (4 Million) EDIT. CHOPRA CHANGED TO 3 ON CARDIFF WEBSITE SINCE
2, Craig Bellamy, 6 (0) Cardiff (6 Million?)
2, Richard Creswell, Sheffield Utd. 14 (0)
2, Martyn Waghorn, Leicester 9 (1)
2, Nadir Ciftci, Portsmouth 11 appearances
2, Jonathon Forte, Scunthorpe 11 (2)
2, Tamas Priskin, Ipswich 6 (6)
2, Ched Evans, Sheffield Utd 8 (4)
2, Matty Fryatt, Leicester 5 (4)
2, Steve Howard, Leicester 8 (5)
2, Ian Hulme, Preston 7 (1)
2, Patrick Agyemang, QPR 0 (8)
2, Theo Robinson, Millwall 5 (1)
2, David Clarkson, Bristol City 3 (5)
2, Freddie Eastwood, Coventry 3 (1)
2, Tarmo Kink, Middlesboro 5 (5) 389 minutes played
2, Shefki Kuqi, Derby County
2, James Hayter, Doncaster 5 (2)

How many of them have scored their two goals from open play?

[Snowball]

=10) 2, Steve Howard, Leicester 8 (5) - 1 in 4 2 in THIRTEEN appearances

1 goal scored in 8 starts

1 goal as a sub


Tut-Tut, Ian


Y'see it's deliberately naughty of you not to separate out goals as subs
especially as such a high percentage of goals are scored BY subs.

[Snowball]

=4) 2, Matty Fryatt, Leicester 5 (4) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 9 appearances

Both goals scored as a sub in losing 4-3 at Norwich


NEXT!!


Tut-Tut Palm-Tree Boy

It's still a better scoring record than Long's this season.

2 = 2

[cmonurz]

Very, very weak, Snowball.

When you posted about a NHunt/Long partnership, a few days back, and I posted the absolute total goals they have scored as a twosome, you highlighted that it was a meaningless stat without knowing how many times they played together.

Now you have decided that for the purposes of your current argument, goals per game played is not relevant, and Long can be compared to all these other players on two goals even though he has twice as many starts as most of them.

Either absolute numbers are fine, or they have to be posted in context. You can't have it either way depending on what point you happen to want to prove today.

[Ian Royal]

If you think you can make your point stand snowy, why don't you express it as time on the pitch rather than starts and subs, or appearances and then we'll see how Long compares in an equal comparison. Remembering his goals are penalties which at least one other player on the pitch probably would have scored in his place.

[Snowball]

NOPE, I merely pointed out that there are DOZENS of strikers, many with very large price-tags
who have yet to score more than 0, 1, 2, 3 goals


There are EIGHTY-TWO strikers named. I'm hardly going to research every one
and work out when they scored, whether it was a starter's or a sub's goal,
how many minutes they have played etc etc

The point is, these ratios can change MASSIVELY in a couple of games

A striker gets a brace and his record is suddenly almost twice as good.

It's OVER A SEASON that we make judgments. Doyle's record was sometimes dire but OVER A SEASON he did OK

(except for his one season where he only managed 6...)

[Stranded]

=4) 2, Matty Fryatt, Leicester 5 (4) - 1 in 2.5 2 in 9 appearances

Both goals scored as a sub in losing 4-3 at Norwich


NEXT!!


Tut-Tut Palm-Tree Boy

It's still a better scoring record than Long's this season.

2 = 2

2 in 6 is a better personal performance than 2 in 13 though wouldn't you agree?

[Snowball]

If you think you can make your point stand snowy, why don't you express it as time on the pitch rather than starts and subs, or appearances and then we'll see how Long compares in an equal comparison. Remembering his goals are penalties which at least one other player on the pitch probably would have scored in his place.

I am very very happy to do that. As soon as you have collected the data for me

Now just pop off and review 24 teams times 14 games and note down all the starts for the strikers, whether they were subbed off, note all the strikers who came on a sub.

How is Long's record against David Nugent, England International?

[handbags_harris]

Or stick to just one simple and reader-friendly way of backing up your footballing perspective.

[Royalee]

Go away Snowball.

[Snowball]

2 in 6 is a better personal performance than 2 in 13 though wouldn't you agree?

I would if that was what I was discussing.

What I'm discussing is the very simple fact that 46% of listed strikers have scored less goals than Shane this season
and only 34% have scored more.

I'm not, right now, caring much about individual scoring rates or lethality

for example Chopra's lethality is BRILLIANT. 72% of shots on target and 38% of those are goals


The POINT is, it's very early days, LOADS of strikers 64/82 = 75% of them have only scored 0, 1, 2 or 3 goals


So slagging off Long is simply saying "Right now, he's not in the top 25% of strikers."

We all know that very few strikers just tick up the goals all-season long. Remember Doyle being streets clear top-scorer only to then go what felt like forever without scoring?

[cmonurz]

2 in 6 is a better personal performance than 2 in 13 though wouldn't you agree?

I would if that was what I was discussing.

What I'm discussing is the very simple fact that 46% of listed strikers have scored less goals than Shane this season
and only 34% have scored more.

I'm not, right now, caring much about individual scoring rates or lethality

And that's the crux of the issue with each 'analysis' that you put forward. It's on your terms, every time.

'Right now' you don't want to talk about scoring rates, because you want to point out that Shane has the same number of absolute goals as a host of other players.

At another point, when you want to show that despite Long not getting many goals, he has a decent scoring rate, you decide that games per goal is hugely important, and that total goals can be a completely misleading stat.

You simply can't have it both ways and retain the credibility of your arguments.

[Ian Royal]

I'll give you a clue.
It's not going to help you because Long has played in 85% of the minutes we've played if you take a game to be 90 minutes long. Now do you really think players who have half their appearances as substitutes over the same total number of games a team has played are going to get close to that time on the pitch?

The answer is: No. And that makes their pitch time scoring rates much better.
The data's all collated for you here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_div_1/results/default.stm

And as another point of "interest" I've just found. We've scored 63% of our goals in the 85% of the games Long has played. That's a goal every 77 minutes with him compared to a goal every 22.75 minutes without him, quite a stark difference even considering tiring defences against fresh legs.

We've conceed 93% of goals with him on the pitch or a goal every 82.92 minutes, compared to a goal every 182 minutes without him on the pitch.

Pretty meaningless on their own of course, because all stats are in such a complex game. But it doesn't make good reading for Long does it statball?

[Ryn]

for example Chopra's lethality is BRILLIANT. 72% of shots on target and 38% of those are goals

Can you give info for the 'lethality' of Shane Long, Noel Hunt and Simon Church please for comparison?