Harte is Rubbish, not good enough for the Championship

[Sarah Star]

Out of interest, does anyone know who set HRK off for his breakaway goal against Barnsley wasn't it?

According to the OS it was Karacan...

http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/MatchRe ... 77,00.html

Is that the one you meant?

[Snowball]

For a start Long could have taken the penalty Harte scored. One down.

You're very funny. At the time of the double-penalty this list was saying how LONG WAS LUCKY and had banged his penalty
straight at the keeper, and how Harte's penalty was ultra-professional and a totally different class.

Of course THAT day it was Long's turn in the barrel. Now it's Harte's

Howard can take set pieces quikte successfully. That's another two or three.
Anyone in the right place could have scored his goal mouth scramble. That's most of them sorted.

Can he really? Why do you say Howard can take set pieces quite successfully?

Is that because you think he scores free kicks?

Or were you just being sneaky IMPLYING he can score free-kicks?

So let's see all Howard's free-kicks...

I've been back five seasons and he's scored NONE. And he's taken one penalty for RFC and missed it!

How many penalties has Howard scored for RFC? NONE
How many free-kicks has Howard scored for RFC? NONE

How many free-kicks has Howard scored in the last 4.33 seasons? NONE

And he hasn't scored a penalty since the 2007-8 season!

2010-11 00 Goals. Zero goals of any kind. ZERO GOALS FROM FREE KICKS OR PENALTIES
2009-10 03 Goals. NONE from free-kicks. ZERO GOALS FROM FREE KICKS or penalties. One penalty MISSED. And before you invoke the Gylfi excuse, Gylfi had a total of 3 in the season.
2008-09 04 Goals. 1 goal in open play for Barnsley; 3 goals in open play for Sheffield United, one a deflected shot v Reading. ZERO GOALS FROM FREE KICKS OR PENALTIES
2007-08 14 Goals. 7 Pens, 1 Header, 5 shots in OP, 1 Direct from a corner. ZERO GOALS FROM FREE KICKS
2006-07 08 Goals. 8 Shots in open play (one a volley, one 25 yard chip) ZERO GOALS FROM FREE KICKS OR PENALTIES


So Ian, your quite silly statement that Howard could basically sort out our set-pieces is utterly laughable.

He hasn't scored a free kick in 4.33 seasons. He hasn't scored a penalty for 2.33 seasons and a bit.

Compare that to Harte who has 2 free-kicks and a penalty THIS SEASON.
Compare that to Harte who score 18 goals last season, about 6 penalties and six free kicks, say (or maybe more)

PLEASE, Ian, engage your brain say once a week, don't just spout fatuous nonsense

[Snowball]

[
Where do we get the 8 goals from? Simple-let somebody else take free-kicks

Long? Has he ever scored a free-kick?

Church? See Long.

Hunt? Scored one free-kick in three years, Boxing Day 2008. Don't know about at Dundee

Howard? Hasn't scored a single free-kick in the last 4.33 seasons (didn't look further back)

McAnuff? I can't remember a free-kick of his going in. Not checked with other clubs.

Kebe, Griffin, Pearce, Mills, Armstrong? Absolutely no evidence.


Zurab? Tabb? Dunno.

Whereas Harte has scored 8 or 9 free-kicks in 1.33 seasons, along with 7-8 penalties.

and corners

Howard is OK at pens, but maybe there is a reason he only takes them one side?

and penalties.

Shane takes decent penalties, but he's a blaster, rather than a bang it had in the corner pro like Harte.

I wonder how many Harte has ever missed?

3-4 seasons ago Howard scored 7 penalties, but he is a shadow of the player he was then. His only pen for RFC he missed.

If there is nobody else in the team to take free-kicks and corners we really are in a bad way.

Bad way, then. Now we can see why McDermott signed Harte

BTW to credit 8 goals is really stretching a point because some of those were in 2nd or 3rd phase after the kick
has been taken but I suppose you will make that out to be part of Harte's cunning plan.

It's very tricky deciding, but the corners were such that the opposition was unable to clear them, and I think that's important.

If those goals are NOT considered to be "from corners" then our corner conversion rate drops to about 2 in 150 or something.

It's like Harte's goal "from" Howard's corner. It didn't land at Harte's feet directly, did it, but we say "from a Howard corner."

[Ian Royal]

Actually snowball it's based on Howard's contribution to goals we've scored from corners and free kicks. If you'll notice I've never said that he would score direct from a free kick, though I think his direct fks aren't too bad based on the murky depths of my memory.

McAnuff has put in some decent corners as well.

Well done on trying to put words into my mouth and move the goalposts yet again.

You ask where the goals could have come from, I argue your figure of 8 is inflated and then point out where we could get 4-5 of the others from and instantly you're onto the attack. You need to get a grip.

PS Thanks SS. I'll check that out.

[Hoop Blah]

Snowball, as I said previously, I do think we'd miss Harte's threat from a direct free kick as he's exeptional at that. We might get a few here and there but yes I'd much rather him him shooting at goal than McAnuff, Hunt or Howard.

As for his contribution to corners I just don't think he's made any difference to them. How about you quantify that by looking at our conversion rate with and without him in the side?

The improvement in the defence and a more solid base for the team to attack from being greater than his contribution is the key and neither are really measurable are they?

[Snowball]

Simple fact.

Howard has not scored a single free-kick in 4.333 seasons. it may be a lot longer but I haven't gone any further back.

We have only one genuine free-kick taker, and until we have one at least 90% as good we need to accommodate him
maybe at CB, maybe LW, dunno, but we need that close to lethal outlet.



Jeez the guy got 18 goals last season, and is on track for 12+ this season.

[Charles Dapper]

It's good that Harte is soooooooo good at free kicks

because at this rate as EVERY championship side sees he's our real weakness they'll send everything down his side and walk past him. He'll need to be scoring every week.

Snowball how many free kicks has he coverted?
How many goals has he been at fault for?

[Snowball]

It's good that Harte is soooooooo good at free kicks

because at this rate as EVERY championship side sees he's our real weakness they'll send everything down his side and walk past him. He'll need to be scoring every week.

Snowball how many free kicks has he coverted. How many goals has he been at fault for?

He has scored three free-kicks, I take it you mean direct shots? I think he has only taken 5/6.

It's debatable how many goals he has been directly responsible for, but it really isn't many. I posted my opinion elsewhere.

However, Hoop Blah made a very good point that while he has not been DIRECTLY
responsible for many goals (unlike say Zurab 100% at fault at Preston) he may be causing
problems by being caught up-field (slow to get back) and pulling the defence out of shape.

I can't honestly comment how much that might be true.

UNHESITATINGLY, if the only position we could play him was LB, I would pick Harte over Armstrong every time.

There are things which get missed or quickly forgotten about Harte. For example his sometimes exquisite passes (eg to Kebe)
or the fact that the ball to Long (when Long chested it down, took forever to shoot, was saved) was a quite brilliant ball,
again from Harte.

Or this: Hunt on the OS ==


"So we needed to give the crowd something to cheer in the second half and we did. We sat down at half time, and Hartey and a few others had a good go at us - and we reacted to it.

"We played for the shirt, remembered what we were fighting for. The half time chat really bucked us up and we did what the manager asked of us in the second half.

"We should have won it in the end so it still feels a bit like a defeat right now. But a point's not the end of the world and there's nothing more we could have done in the second half."


You can't buy that, and it's hard to put a value on it. But what we know is we were down 1-3 at half-time
and a professional says Harte influenced the mentality of the team, and in the second half, that same
Mr Harte played a blinder of a ball to Long that so easily could've been a goal, and it was Harte who gave
us a life-line in the first half with his "anybody could've scored it, ha-ha" goal.

[Hoop Blah]

Simple fact.

Howard has not scored a single free-kick in 4.333 seasons. it may be a lot longer but I haven't gone any further back.

We have only one genuine free-kick taker, and until we have one at least 90% as good we need to accommodate him
maybe at CB, maybe LW, dunno, but we need that close to lethal outlet.



Jeez the guy got 18 goals last season, and is on track for 12+ this season.

That simple fact of yours, can you put some context on it and tell us how many Howard has actually taken in that 4.333 seasons? I think he can take a reasonable free kick, as can Hunt or McAnuff, but I don't think their half as threatening as Harte, but if you're going to throw around such facts you need to be able to give them some weight.

Do we have to accomodate Harte just to take free kicks though? That was my question. I'm not so sure we do. We seem so shakey at the back at the moment and he's the weak link, if we tighten up we might not need those free kicks.

How many chances has he had to score from free kicks snowball? I think you accept that you're statistical average of 1 attacking free kick per game is rubbish, but how many genuine shots at goal has he had?

Does having a player capable of scoring say, 1 in 3 (that'd be a very very good average), outweigh the defensive frailty we're now showing?

[Stranded]

I wouldn't say Harte is the weak link more the left side that he is part of. It's the combination of players out there that is causing us issues. Now whether Harte is part of the best combination is open to debate, but unless we see other combinations now we won't know. I personally think with Kebe back the left side will look stronger and we may well see less attacks coming down that flank.

[Snowball]

Simple fact. Howard has not scored a single free-kick in 4.333 seasons. it may be a lot longer but I haven't gone any further back. We have only one genuine free-kick taker, and until we have one at least 90% as good we need to accommodate him. Maybe at CB, maybe LW, dunno, but we need that close to lethal outlet.v Jeez the guy got 18 goals last season, and is on track for 12+ this season.

That simple fact of yours, can you put some context on it and tell us how many Howard has actually taken in that 4.333 seasons?

Why is that relevant? If he was good at scoring from free-kicks don't you think managers would have asked him to take some?

I think he can take a reasonable free kick, as can Hunt or McAnuff, but I don't think their half as threatening
as Harte, but if you're going to throw around such facts you need to be able to give them some weight.

WEIGHT? You don't think ZERO GOALS in 4.33 years is "WEIGHT"? You merely "THINK" he can take a good free-kick?
So how many FC SHOTS have you seen him take? We know the result. NIL GOALS.
So what, precisely makes you say you THINK he has a good free-kick?

Do we have to accomodate Harte just to take free kicks though? That was my question. I'm not so sure we do.
We seem so shakey at the back at the moment and he's the weak link, if we tighten up we might not need those free kicks.

I disagree. I think Mills is having a very poor run, and Zurab is classy but sloppy.

How many chances has he had to score from free kicks snowball?
I think you accept that you're statistical average of 1 attacking free
kick per game is rubbish, but how many genuine shots at goal has he had?

He has had a TOTAL of 11 chances, 7 on target, 4 goals. Better than anybody at the club by a street.
Note less than one a game.

PS Last but one home game, ONE AFC. This latest game? Can't remember any but haven't checked.

Does having a player capable of scoring say, 1 in 3 (that'd be a very very good average), outweigh the defensive frailty we're now showing?

YES, especially as he's not the only one making errors.

[Snowball]

I wouldn't say Harte is the weak link more the left side that he is part of. It's the combination of players out there that is causing us issues. Now whether Harte is part of the best combination is open to debate, but unless we see other combinations now we won't know. I personally think with Kebe back the left side will look stronger and we may well see less attacks coming down that flank.

Helluva good point.

Presumably when Kebe is playing the opposition FBs have to stay back.

I never thought of that. I was thinking merely "poor defending" for the reason
that while Kebe has been out we've let in 10 in 4 (after a clean sheet).

Burnley might have been caught unawares, expecting him to play (Clever Mac?)

But since then, FBs have more freedom? How many of our troubles in these four games
have been caused by FBs bombing on?

[Snowball]

He has had a TOTAL of 11 chances, 7 on target, 4 goals. Better than anybody at the club by a street.


One Penalty
Two scoring free kicks
One open play goal.
One shot on the run at Preston (I think)
And someone said he missed an open-play one at QPR, was it, or v Doncaster?
One AFC that whistled just past the top corner

Now I don't KNOW this, but that leaves 4 other chances which MIGHT have been AFCs.

So worse-case scenario is he's scored 2 free-kicks from 7 attempts (about ten times better than Gylfi ever did!)

[Snowball]

I think you accept that you're statistical average of 1 attacking free kick per game is rubbish, but how many genuine shots at goal has he had?


I don't "accept" anything. I discover the facts.

We have had one game at home with just 1 AFC, and how many v Norwich?

[BR2]

I'm no great fan of Howard but I know that he has scored some spectacular goals in open play for other clubs,the shame is that he hasn't done so for us.
It is only in recent years that players brought up in English football have started shooting directly from free-kicks.
The Brazilians such as Zico and Rivellino did so very successfully and then the likes of Maradona,Zola,Bergkamp etc did the same and I would suggest that with the arrival of Zola to our game our players started taking these free-kicks and players like Beckham have built a career around doing so and Ronaldo has taken on to a higher level than Beckham.
In fact Beckham's direct free-kicks and penalties have not produced that many goals but he is remembered for that one v Greece when he scored at something like the 12th attempt.

Now the trend seems to be that each side has a specialist but when you get to England for example whereas Beckham always took free-kicks and corners it has been shown that Gerrard and Lampard are actually as good and probably better.
My point is that there could well be a number of players in our side quite capable of taking free-kicks but having been in the shadow of Gylfi and now Harte don't have the opportunity.
I get fed up with so many free-kicks ending up with a direct shot at goal-it was always an opportunity to find another player and in the past there was much more in terms of variety and imagination but today more often than not the ball crashes into the wall or sails over the bar after an eternity waiting for the kick to be taken.

Coming back to Howard and his not scoring from free-kicks it would be interesting to know how many assists he has had over the years by being less selfish and possibly more imaginative than a direct striker of the ball like Beckham or Harte.

The good thing about Zico,Rivellino,Zola,Bergkamp and Ronaldo is that they had so much more to their game as have Gerrard and Lampard whereas with Harte and to a lesser extent Beckham these players bring little else to a game other than striking a dead ball or making a pass or cross when under no pressure.
IMHO for Reading Harte doesn't bring enough extra to our game-Brian obviously disagrees at the moment but I'm sure he will eventually see sense.

[Wycombe Royal]

I don't "accept" anything. I discover the facts.

No, you manufacture statistics. The way you calcualte and collate your stats does not make them a fact except in your delusional little world.

[Thomas L'Heureux]

You can't buy that, and it's hard to put a value on it. But what we know is we were down 1-3 at half-time
and a professional says Harte influenced the mentality of the team, and in the second half, that same
Mr Harte played a blinder of a ball to Long that so easily could've been a goal, and it was Harte who gave
us a life-line in the first half with his "anybody could've scored it, ha-ha" goal.

Harte's biggest contribution was rolling around as if he'd been shot for Holt's red card.

[Hoop Blah]

I wouldn't say Harte is the weak link more the left side that he is part of. It's the combination of players out there that is causing us issues. Now whether Harte is part of the best combination is open to debate, but unless we see other combinations now we won't know. I personally think with Kebe back the left side will look stronger and we may well see less attacks coming down that flank.

Yeah I'd pretty much agree with that, although I think he plays an equal part in the weakness of the left side. I also feel we have a better defender sat on the sidelines who would make that combination stronger defensively, and possibly in an attacking sense too (shooting from free kicks aside that is).

[Hoop Blah]

I think you accept that you're statistical average of 1 attacking free kick per game is rubbish, but how many genuine shots at goal has he had?


I don't "accept" anything. I discover the facts.

We have had one game at home with just 1 AFC, and how many v Norwich?

Yes you say we had only 1 free kick against Cardiff (I didn't count). Remind me again how many we had in the previous 3 or 4 games? Wasn't it about 5 or 6 a game? Your average, which you stated as statistically correct, is horribly wrong.

I've no idea how many we had against Norwich as I know my point has been proven. I can't think of at least one off the top of my head though.

[Hoop Blah]

Why is that relevant? If he was good at scoring from free-kicks don't you think managers would have asked him to take some?

That depends who else is in the side really doesn't it? I wouldn't expect him to take any for us if Harte or Sigurdsson was playing but that doesn't mean he can't take a decent free kick.

Was Ryan Giggs no good at free kicks before Dennis Irwin stopped playing for Utd? Was Shane Long a poor penalty taker in the days before he was allowed to take them because Kitson and Doyle were ahead of him in the queue?

Why is it relevant? Well if he's not taken more than a handful of freekicks in that 4.333 season barron spell then it's hardly a surprise he hasn't scored.

Do you blame Long for not scoring more goals all those games he didn't make it into the side? Did those games he didn't play in count as chances to score like you seem to think Howards should from non-existant freekicks?

WEIGHT? You don't think ZERO GOALS in 4.33 years is "WEIGHT"? You merely "THINK" he can take a good free-kick?
So how many FC SHOTS have you seen him take? We know the result. NIL GOALS.
So what, precisely makes you say you THINK he has a good free-kick?

I've seen the way Howard plays, his ability to strike and bend the ball, his shooting from distance and his delivery from other set pieces. From those I think he has the ability to take a pretty decent free kick.

I'm sure I've seen him take one or two for us, but I've not paid a hell of a lot of attention to it. I don't remember him scoring from one though, probably because he hasn't.