Simon Church

[winchester_royal]

You are thoroughly tiresome.

Like most fans on here, I choose to form my opinions based on what I see, and the criteria that I have in my mind for what makes a good striker. Church is slow, weak, and not very skilful. He has some redeeming features, for example his movement is decent and he works hard, but it's not enough. Especially for a team with premiership aspirations.

And I think Brian agrees with me, which is why he was looking to sign CMS a couple of weeks ago, and if rumours are to be believed offered Church in part exchange.

Feel free to disagree with me Snowball, and I would be interested in hearing your own opinions about Church, but don't resort to the 'well Brian plays him so he must be good' line of debate...

How about a sensible rephrase then


"Brian plays him, so he obviously thinks he is good enough"

link that to

" Brian has led this team to a pretty good standing in the league"

Absolutely, and I don't think you'll find many fans that don't support every decision that Brian makes, because he's earned that faith, but that doesn't mean that we can't have private reservations about some of them.

[melonhead]

Well of course, every player will get panned by a few. I would say that most of the players he named were criticised only by an overwhelming minority however.

Different fans are allowed different views. Football would be a horrendously boring past-time if everyone had to agree with the club and each other.

majority criticised long, majority criticised kebe, majority criticised cummings,majority criticised pearce

[winchester_royal]

Well of course, every player will get panned by a few. I would say that most of the players he named were criticised only by an overwhelming minority however.

Different fans are allowed different views. Football would be a horrendously boring past-time if everyone had to agree with the club and each other.

majority criticised long, majority criticised kebe, majority criticised cummings,majority criticised pearce

Long maybe, but lets not forget that before his purple patch started away at Derby last season (perhaps the same could happen for Church ) he hadn't scored a goal from open play. The majority were concerned at his goalscoring record, not his all round play which most accepted was fantastic.

Kebe, yes, but because of his attitude rather than ability.

Cummings, only because of his first few appearances which were diabolical. The majority haven't slagged him off for two years.

Pearce, nope, most of us have always given him the benefit of the doubt.

[Snowball]

You are thoroughly tiresome.

Like most fans on here, I choose to form my opinions based on what I see, and the criteria that I have in my mind for what makes a good striker. Church is slow, weak, and not very skilful. He has some redeeming features, for example his movement is decent and he works hard, but it's not enough. Especially for a team with premiership aspirations.

And I think Brian agrees with me, which is why he was looking to sign CMS a couple of weeks ago, and if rumours are to be believed offered Church in part exchange.

Feel free to disagree with me Snowball, and I would be interested in hearing your own opinions about Church, but don't resort to the 'well Brian plays him so he must be good' line of debate...

Perhaps you should read more carefully.

I have said, many times, and in this thread, that I AGREE with the subjective opinions that don't rate Church.

How many posts do I need to quote to show where I've said that I sigh when he comes on because I feel he will never change a game,
that I personally think he doesn't have "bottle", that I personally believe he rarely wins headers, that he doesn't stick
a foot in, that I wouldn't be sad if he went. I have said ALL these things more than once. INCLUDING this thread

[Snowball]

[

Long maybe, but lets not forget that before his purple patch started away at Derby last season
he hadn't scored a goal from open play.

Derby?, that team that plays in blue and white hoops and play at Loftus Road, and Shane scored
an absolute belter from about 25 yards then raised a finger to the away fans, indicating "1"... that Derby?

And I had been pointing out that he had never had a problem scoring from open play and this was just a patch,
and for one thing he probably would have got goals but instead he was winning penalties with the runs

(and of course I was pilloried for saying so)

The majority were concerned at his goalscoring record, not his all round play which most accepted was fantastic.

Except when I said he was doing that, the cry went up, "A striker has to score goals and he can't"

Kebe, yes, but because of his attitude rather than ability.

I seem to remember an awful lot of Nobbers say he was useless and couldn't USE his skill because he was brainless.

Cummings, only because of his first few appearances which were diabolical. The majority haven't slagged him off for two years.

Well, it's quite easy to "not-slag" when a player is playing well. The trick is not to knee-jerk
and write players off. And many, many, many said he was utter shit and always would be shit.

Incorrectly.

Pearce, nope, most of us have always given him the benefit of the doubt.

Turning circle of an oil-tanker, league One at best? Yeah, that Pearce.

[Snowball]

Snowball spot on.

Church is good enough at this level. Has had his chance and not done as well as some may have liked, but he has still scored some valuable goals this season and last. If McDermott sees the potential in him, I'm more than happy to sit tight. Just wish the pr1ck behind me in the west stand and all the other armchair managers would shut up and back him.

Let me repeat I am NOT a Church Fan.

He is barely 23 years old. How much might he develop in the next 1-2 years?

He has twenty championship goals and scored against Liverpool and WBA in the FA Cup when barely 21

Last season, age 22, a poor one, he won the game v Ipswich, won the game v Doncaster, got the draw at Hull
only one of his four goals was largely irrelevant in the 4-0 win at Burnley.


Church is almost 2 years younger than Long (688 Days)... this weekend's game corresponds to March 23rd 2010
so how well had Shane Long done then, two thirds of the way through a season when IN THE SEASON he (Long) scored only 6 league goals (Church's current tally)

At this age Shane had scored 22 League Goals and 5 Cup Goals in 5,940 minutes

Church has 20 League Goals + 2 Cup Goals in a few hundred less minutes...

At his overall rate he should get a couple more league goals by the time he reaches 5,940 minutes

That's 22 Long, 22 Church for the same minutes.

5,940 Minutes at 220 minutes per goal Shane
5,526 Minutes at 251 minutes per goal Simon

[winchester_royal]

[

Long maybe, but lets not forget that before his purple patch started away at Derby last season
he hadn't scored a goal from open play.

Derby?, that team that plays in blue and white hoops and play at Loftus Road, and Shane scored
an absolute belter from about 25 yards then raised a finger to the away fans, indicating "1"... that Derby?

And I had been pointing out that he had never had a problem scoring from open play and this was just a patch,
and for one thing he probably would have got goals but instead he was winning penalties with the runs

(and of course I was pilloried for saying so)

The majority were concerned at his goalscoring record, not his all round play which most accepted was fantastic.

Except when I said he was doing that, the cry went up, "A striker has to score goals and he can't"

Kebe, yes, but because of his attitude rather than ability.

I seem to remember an awful lot of Nobbers say he was useless and couldn't USE his skill because he was brainless.

Cummings, only because of his first few appearances which were diabolical. The majority haven't slagged him off for two years.

Well, it's quite easy to "not-slag" when a player is playing well. The trick is not to knee-jerk
and write players off. And many, many, many said he was utter shit and always would be shit.

Incorrectly.

Pearce, nope, most of us have always given him the benefit of the doubt.

Turning circle of an oil-tanker, league One at best? Yeah, that Pearce.

Do you know the meaning of the word 'majority'?

[Ian Royal]

Well of course, every player will get panned by a few. I would say that most of the players he named were criticised only by an overwhelming minority however.

Different fans are allowed different views. Football would be a horrendously boring past-time if everyone had to agree with the club and each other.

majority criticised long, majority criticised kebe, majority criticised cummings,majority criticised pearce

Majority didn't say Kebe was shit though (there were half a dozen Bambi on ice morons at most), they just argued his problem was always that he looked dangerous but didn't deliver. Since McDermott's come in he's got to play in a way more suited to his style and it's paid dividends.

Cummings I'll give you, although I always rated him. Pearce is debateable, I think he's always had his supporters too. He certainly does have some flaws as a player but he's compensated for them well and Gorkss and a pacier defence (well cummings anyway) has helped with that.

Long only got the panning he did after two years of failing to step up to the plate so is a different kettle of fish. He had the support, but it eroded over time until most had given up and lost patience.

[Basingstoke Royal]

I don't neccesarily think we should sell Church - but it's a risk playing him in the first team as at times it's like playing with ten men. He needs to play for the reserves or go on loan to prove himself at some level. But he has been here for a number of seasons and has not made the improvement he should have.

My worry is that I cannot see much in terms of raw talent for him to build on. If he was a good finisher, quick, strong, brave, skillful then I would be more confident that he can turn into a decent player. As someone else said - Long was doing everything apart from scoring, which was very frustrating, but he had power and pace and was getting in the positions and defenders were worried by him. I can't see defenders worrying when they see Church's name on the team sheet or coming off the bench.

If he scores a hat full for the reserves on loan or in the reserves the bring him back into the first team squad, but at this point he has proved nothing and has been given so many opportunities.

[royalsroyalsroyals92]

Nothing about a scapegoat at all. Its more a case off our manager constantly playing or putting on a player who seems to offer nothing, and misses decent opportunities.
Oh wait, sorry... he runs around a lot and tires the defenders out... cause that makes him a brilliant striker

Let's get things straight.

McDermott is an idiot, playing a load of clowns.

That's why we have 27 points from the last 36 and are top of the form table.

Seriously guys, take a look at yourselves.

I AGREE with you, when I watch Church I think he's not very good, but I trust McDermott, NOT
because he's Reading's manager, but because he is getting results on (up to now) a shoestring.

Yes, my uneducated head wants Alf to get more time, but maybe
(I realise this is way out of line) the manager knows more than HobNob

I trust McDermott, I dislike the style quite often, but I trust that it's effective and it wins us games, and for now that's all that matters. I don't look for scapegoats at all, I think in the end of the day we have a decent set of players, but for now Church is just the most frustrating player in the squad, and I'd much rather see ALF, who has scored from the little chances he's got, and just seems to have more conviction. Church just doesn't seem to bring anything to a game recently

[Extended-Phenotype]

Let's see...

Player is playing badly -> Fans say player is playing badly -> something -> Fans are wrong.

What is that something, I wonder.

[Snowball]

Let's see...

Player is playing badly -> Fans say player is playing badly -> something -> Fans are wrong.

What is that something, I wonder.

The bold bit is OPINION and not necessarily correct.

Church has double Hunt's goals, the same number of goals as le Fondre

[Extended-Phenotype]

Let's see...

Player is playing badly -> Fans say player is playing badly -> something -> Fans are wrong.

What is that something, I wonder.

The bold bit is OPINION and not necessarily correct.

Whereas some numbers which bear no relation to quality, ease of chance, the assist, the time of play, the opposition, the markers, the goalkeeper, the tactics, the support...

Hmm, I might just believe my eyes, rather than read a spreadsheet if that's okay.

I still wonder what that something is... could it be... STATS?

[Snowball]

I trust McDermott, I dislike the style quite often, but I trust that it's effective and it wins us games, and for now that's all that matters. I don't look for scapegoats at all, I think in the end of the day we have a decent set of players, but for now Church is just the most frustrating player in the squad, and I'd much rather see ALF, who has scored from the little chances he's got, and just seems to have more conviction. Church just doesn't seem to bring anything to a game recently

Speaking gut-feel, I prefer Alf, and I IMAGINE Alf is a better goal-scorer.

And I IMAGINE he's more deadly

But the stats say he is NOT.

Maybe Church gets crowded out more, but even if he does, he gets (so far)
as many goals in less minutes and less shots.

24 Shots 06 Goals Scores 1 in 4 Church

34 Shots 06 Goals Scores 1 in 6 Le Fondre

So, I would guess deadly Alf, so far, doesn't measure up. Gut feel is more often wrong than right.


Just to add, if I was picking the side I would pick Alf before Church (ATM) but that doesn't mean I'd be right to do so.

[Snowball]

Whereas some numbers which bear no relation to quality, ease of chance, the assist, the time of play, the opposition, the markers, the goalkeeper, the tactics, the support...

Hmm, I might just believe my eyes, rather than read a spreadsheet if that's okay.

Why should you believe, over a season that one striker's chances will be much different to any other's?

Makes no sense.

And it makes no sense to believe that "somehow" Alf had to play against tougher defenders etc. It all evens out

As does starting minutes, sub-minutes, strike partners, midfields. In fact there's almost no significant difference
to the chances-to-play between Hunt, Church and Le Fondre this season


You carry on believing your eyes, believing in your prejudiced views. It's well known that a pre-set opinion
distorts what we see.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Why should you believe, over a season that one striker's chances will be much different to any other's?

Because they have played against different sides, in different games. Narrow miss/big miss/on target but saved well/on target but a lame effort/off target but great skill/off target from an easy angle/worked the pass well/pass was so good a stray cat walking onto the pitch would have scored it... scewed stats or eyes? Hmmmm. Eyes.

And it makes no sense to believe that "somehow" Alf had to play against tougher defenders etc. It all evens out

How does it even out? Last time I checked we only play each team once at home and once away, and as far as I'm aware each team in the championship has a different back 5.

As does starting minutes, sub-minutes, strike partners, midfields.

No it doesn't.

You carry on believing your eyes

Thanks, I will. Oh look, Church spooned another chance. Eyes right.

[pea]

I still wonder what that something is... could it be... STATS?

Snowball, of course there is a difference in the sort of chances that end up as a statistic and it varies from player to player in terms of playing style, how they interact with other players on the pitch, how the manager has set the team up for that game, the role players are told to play in that set up etc etc etc. Football comes down to tactics, and not statistics. How many times have you seen Alfie get the chance that Church got on Saturday this season, hardly ever, but if you look at his goals on youtube he loves those chances and is very efficient at putting them away. So if you have a scrappy game against bottom-of the table then surely you'd want a poacher like Alfie for those opportunities and to capitalise on the several penalty box scrambles we couldn't convert to goals in that match over someone like Church who likes to get in behind defences like he did against Leeds.

[Snowball]

These are the games when Church played with Le Fondre

That is they are both on the pitch at the same time, same minutes, same team, same defences

and Church has done better on goals

Donny---------CHURCH scored (Alf assist) - Alf scored (equal win 2 points between them)
Coventry--------CHURCH scored (Alf assist) (wins a point)
Bristol----------------------------Alf scored (tap-in from James spill,)
Burnley
Derby ----------------------------Alf scored 2 (wins a point) (Church X headed back by Karacan)
Saints
Palace
Brum
Leeds--------CHURCH scored (only goal, wins 2 points)
Brighton
Ipswich
Cardiff
Ipswich
Blackpool - --------CHURCH had a good goal disallowed
Boro
West Ham--------CHURCH scored 2

5 Goals Church (Plus a good goal disallowed)
4 Goals Le Fondre

Alf squeaks ahead if you include his 2 assists


So what is it now E-P, maybe it was muddier where Alf was running.

[Snowball]

Snowball, of course there is a difference in the sort of chances that end up as a statistic and it varies from player to player in terms of playing style, how they interact with other players on the pitch, how the manager has set the team up for that game, the role players are told to play in that set up etc etc etc. Football comes down to tactics, and not statistics. How many times have you seen Alfie get the chance that Church got on Saturday this season, hardly ever, but if you look at his goals on youtube he loves those chances and is very efficient at putting them away. So if you have a scrappy game against bottom-of the table then surely you'd want a poacher like Alfie for those opportunities and to capitalise on the several penalty box scrambles we couldn't convert to goals in that match over someone like Church who likes to get in behind defences like he did against Leeds.

PLEASE Note, I-----PREFER------LE FONDRE

I'm not saying they aren't different players, but that's not the point,
the point is as "goals-machines" in the Championship, playing for RFC
there is, currently, not a lot between them, with Church edging it

PLEASE Note, I-----PREFER------LE FONDRE

I'm just pissed at the way people twist and turn to deny Church a fair hearing.

Look, when they have played TOGETHER, Goal-Wise it's Church 5-4 Le Fondre

[Snowball]

Because they have played against different sides, in different games.

Except that 4/6 of Alf's goals and 5/6 Church's goals

HAVE COME WHEN THEY WERE PLAYING TOGETHER

Kind of shoots your argument down in flames, dunt it?