Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

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Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 01 Sep 2017 10:33

Just putting it out there. Many seem to have this idea of a strict system of keeper, defenders, CMs wingers and one or 2 strikers.

It seems with Stam though that outside of his defence he's just interested in "good football players". Aka midfielders who can play anywhere.

It reminds me a bit of schoolyard football where there is no structure but you just have as many good players as you can on the team.

We know the Dutch (especially Ajax where he's come from) have favoured "total football" which to my limited knowledge relies on just good outfield players who can swap roles rather than position specialists. Is this what Stam is sort of developing with us?

We seem to have a host of midfielders who to me just seem very good players who are quite versatile. It has confused me why we've got so many midfielders (and even on deadline day we were again more likely to sign yet another midfielder than a striker!) but if he believes in total football then it makes more sense. Whilst we have few out and out strikers we have a shit load of decent attacking midfielders who it seems can just run around anywhere and all have goals in them.

So perhaps we shouldn't be so concerned that we have not signed a specialised striker.

It must be very difficult to play against a team that doesn't just have 2 strikers you need to mark but has 6 dangerous attacking players who run around all over the place any of whom can score.

Is the idea of a striker flawed? Is Stam instilling total football?

Discuss.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by John Smith » 01 Sep 2017 10:50

Didn't Spain win a world cup without a striker?

Clearly there was money to be spent this window and he didn't get anyone in, so I can only imagine he knows what he's doing. After the near miracle he performed last season I'm happy to be along for the ride.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Hound » 01 Sep 2017 10:58

I think this has been touched on in other threads but I don't think Stam will be too upset

I think he likes the idea of a big strong CF in the Yann style (i.e. Hemed/Hugill) but is comfortable playing a more fluid front 3. Liverpool are an obvious example of this working well at a higher level

I still reckon more often than not we will have Yann/Jon Dadi or Mendes in the #9 role though

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Maneki Neko » 01 Sep 2017 11:26

It seems with Stam though that outside of his defence he's just interested in "good football players". Aka midfielders who can play anywhere.



Clearly there was money to be spent this window and he didn't get anyone in, so I can only imagine he knows what he's doing. After the near miracle he performed last season I'm happy to be along for the ride.


this is made a nonsense of by the bids and interest we had for a variety of strikers

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 01 Sep 2017 11:43

Maneki Neko
It seems with Stam though that outside of his defence he's just interested in "good football players". Aka midfielders who can play anywhere.



Clearly there was money to be spent this window and he didn't get anyone in, so I can only imagine he knows what he's doing. After the near miracle he performed last season I'm happy to be along for the ride.


this is made a nonsense of by the bids and interest we had for a variety of strikers


I did think that. But it's not black and white. It's clear where his focussed has been for a long time. Midfielder after midfielder after midfielder but relatively low interest in strikers which has materialised in 7 signings without an out and out goalscoring striker.

Sure he's interested in a couple here and there but they really have to be the right type for him to be happy it seems.


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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Theroyalbox » 01 Sep 2017 12:02

OP is a good point, but I do think JDB will have a big role to play this season, not necessarily with goals but the runs he does creates so much space for those midfielders to work into. Having barrow aluko swift Kelly bacuna whoever it may be filling those spaces - they are all capable of scoring. I think itll be hard for teams to adapt to play against us as obviously we have the quality to go out wide and get crosses in, but we also have abilities to play through the middle.

But I do hope we see plenty of kermy because I already miss him and the thought of him retiring is a sad one :(

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by russyb » 01 Sep 2017 13:54

Look at the way Liverpool play, Arsenal and teams like Barca all drive from midfield, i genuinely think this system can work too with the fluidity of midfield, the hold ups from Bod up top and runners arriving into the box. Another centre forward would have been great and who knows maybe January we will get one, but i like to think we have a bit more pace now with our passing and can make our style of play not only more exciting but more effective too.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Maneki Neko » 01 Sep 2017 14:40

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It seems with Stam though that outside of his defence he's just interested in "good football players". Aka midfielders who can play anywhere.



Clearly there was money to be spent this window and he didn't get anyone in, so I can only imagine he knows what he's doing. After the near miracle he performed last season I'm happy to be along for the ride.


this is made a nonsense of by the bids and interest we had for a variety of strikers


I did think that. But it's not black and white. It's clear where his focussed has been for a long time. Midfielder after midfielder after midfielder but relatively low interest in strikers which has materialised in 7 signings without an out and out goalscoring striker.

Sure he's interested in a couple here and there but they really have to be the right type for him to be happy it seems.


I think that's just a symptom of not being able to get the type/quality of striker, not that its what stam wants.
we couldn't get a striker in, and so have repeatedly filled the squad with a variety of attacking midfielders in an attempt to replace the goals we don't/wont get up front.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Maneki Neko » 01 Sep 2017 14:41

russyb Look at the way Liverpool play, Arsenal and teams like Barca all drive from midfield, i genuinely think this system can work too with the fluidity of midfield, the hold ups from Bod up top and runners arriving into the box. Another centre forward would have been great and who knows maybe January we will get one, but i like to think we have a bit more pace now with our passing and can make our style of play not only more exciting but more effective too.


do Liverpool/arsenal/barca go into the season without fit proven quality goalscorer in the squad then?


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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Hound » 01 Sep 2017 14:45

Maneki Neko
russyb Look at the way Liverpool play, Arsenal and teams like Barca all drive from midfield, i genuinely think this system can work too with the fluidity of midfield, the hold ups from Bod up top and runners arriving into the box. Another centre forward would have been great and who knows maybe January we will get one, but i like to think we have a bit more pace now with our passing and can make our style of play not only more exciting but more effective too.


do Liverpool/arsenal/barca go into the season without fit proven quality goalscorer in the squad then?


I'm not sure Arsenal should be in any example of how to run a football team at the moment tbh

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Sutekh » 01 Sep 2017 14:45

Maneki Neko
russyb Look at the way Liverpool play, Arsenal and teams like Barca all drive from midfield, i genuinely think this system can work too with the fluidity of midfield, the hold ups from Bod up top and runners arriving into the box. Another centre forward would have been great and who knows maybe January we will get one, but i like to think we have a bit more pace now with our passing and can make our style of play not only more exciting but more effective too.


do Liverpool/arsenal/barca go into the season without fit proven quality goalscorer in the squad then?


No, but then Liverpool and Arsenal go into a season without defensive organisation instead.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by russyb » 01 Sep 2017 15:08

Sutekh
Maneki Neko
russyb Look at the way Liverpool play, Arsenal and teams like Barca all drive from midfield, i genuinely think this system can work too with the fluidity of midfield, the hold ups from Bod up top and runners arriving into the box. Another centre forward would have been great and who knows maybe January we will get one, but i like to think we have a bit more pace now with our passing and can make our style of play not only more exciting but more effective too.


do Liverpool/arsenal/barca go into the season without fit proven quality goalscorer in the squad then?


No, but then Liverpool and Arsenal go into a season without defensive organisation instead.



I guess what i am saying is i think we can make this system work, without the perceived additional striker, i am actually a little bit excited to see if it comes off too, i think we are getting closer with our style of play and hopefully with these additions a little bit faster with it.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by From Despair To Where? » 01 Sep 2017 16:15

I think his priority was getting more movement and fluidity through midfield. Mendes and Bodvarsson have shown if the supply is good, they know where the goal is.

We now have pace and technical ability throughout midfield so whilst he was after a striker, I think securing one would have been the cherry on top rather than the be all. Not forgetting, there is also the loan window that opens in a week.


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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 01 Sep 2017 16:29

Maneki Neko
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this is made a nonsense of by the bids and interest we had for a variety of strikers


I did think that. But it's not black and white. It's clear where his focussed has been for a long time. Midfielder after midfielder after midfielder but relatively low interest in strikers which has materialised in 7 signings without an out and out goalscoring striker.

Sure he's interested in a couple here and there but they really have to be the right type for him to be happy it seems.


I think that's just a symptom of not being able to get the type/quality of striker, not that its what stam wants.
we couldn't get a striker in, and so have repeatedly filled the squad with a variety of attacking midfielders in an attempt to replace the goals we don't/wont get up front.


Yeah you could well be right mate.

But the reason I don't get that impression is the sheer number of midfielders we've been linked with and just bought and bought and bought since his arrival (as I say almost bought yet another one bizarrely yesterday!). The number of strikers we've even shown interest in has been much lower. All this despite having more than an adequate number of midfielders, yet crying out for a striker. And it's not a money thing because we've already spent hugely on Aluko who's not an out and out striker, although he can score.

Of course he does want a certain type of striker as we know bids have been made. But I don't think he's compensating for it with his midfield as that would be rather foolish I reckon, given that he might well have landed a striker or two yesterday if things went our way. Then he'd have wasted a load of money on unnecessary attacking goalscoring midfielders.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by thirtyyarder » 01 Sep 2017 16:36

[quote="From Despair To Where?" there is also the loan window that opens in a week.[/quote]

I think this rule has changed

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Woodcote Royal » 01 Sep 2017 16:40

From Despair To Where? I think his priority was getting more movement and fluidity through midfield. Mendes and Bodvarsson have shown if the supply is good, they know where the goal is.

We now have pace and technical ability throughout midfield so whilst he was after a striker, I think securing one would have been the cherry on top rather than the be all. Not forgetting, there is also the loan window that opens in a week.


Quite and totally agree with your general point.

Isn't this were so many modern teams are heading these days?

Tottenham may have the luxury of Harry Kane but he's supported by Erikson, Alli and Son and BELIEVE IT OR NOT I can't remember any of them being called wingers when, apparently we are knee deep in them :|

The same applies to Man U with Lukaku+3

Essentially these teams are playing with a four pronged attack and just as Tottenham lost little momentum when Kane was out injured, I don't believe it will be the end of our world either.

I keep reading that an "out and out striker" is a must but that to me means 20 goals a season and we already have one of those on his way back to fitness.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Lower West » 01 Sep 2017 17:13

Maneki Neko
russyb Look at the way Liverpool play, Arsenal and teams like Barca all drive from midfield, i genuinely think this system can work too with the fluidity of midfield, the hold ups from Bod up top and runners arriving into the box. Another centre forward would have been great and who knows maybe January we will get one, but i like to think we have a bit more pace now with our passing and can make our style of play not only more exciting but more effective too.


do Liverpool/arsenal/barca go into the season without fit proven quality goalscorer in the squad then?


Wolves only have one recognised CF in their squad.........

Seems to be European style of football. That makes the like of John Terry redundant.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Lower West » 01 Sep 2017 17:14

Woodcote Royal we already have one of those on his way back to fitness.


Years are passing by. Whether Yann can recover to former levels of play may pose a challenge.

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by Hound » 01 Sep 2017 19:00

TBH, think a bit too much is made of Yann's age generally. No real reason if you can do the job he did last year at 35 he can't at 36. Clearly looks after himself, and sports science etc is so good nowadays

Hopefully he still has the motivation. I reckon he'd delay retiring another season if we went up and was wanted

I do worry a little about how well he'll heal from that injury though. Sounded nasty

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Re: Is the idea of a striker flawed? Does Stam believe in total football?

by West Stand Man » 01 Sep 2017 19:20

Maneki Neko
It seems with Stam though that outside of his defence he's just interested in "good football players". Aka midfielders who can play anywhere.



Clearly there was money to be spent this window and he didn't get anyone in, so I can only imagine he knows what he's doing. After the near miracle he performed last season I'm happy to be along for the ride.


this is made a nonsense of by the bids and interest we had for a variety of strikers


I think you are being a tad hard here. It isn't nonsense really. I think it all depends on your interpretation of what constitutes total football, and what Stam wants from his players in that style (assuming that is what he is aiming for).

My understanding is that total football still requires each player to have a speciality but to be able to fit comfortably in positions other than that. So, it helps to have a striker to be the principal man up the middle but the rest of the team need to be able fill that space if he gets drawn out.

Jens Lehman described it well on BBC a couple of years ago. In total football, as played by the German national team, every player has a special role and that is how they line up. The key is that when a player is drawn out of position, for whatever reason, they rotate around to maintain the shape. What is vital is that everyone is comfortable covering anyone else. At the next breakdown everyone automatically readjusts to their natural position.

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