BFTG Stoke

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Snowflake Royal » 15 Dec 2019 18:15

NewCorkSeth
Notts Royal What gives us the divine right to expect to be challenging for promotion every year? We’re around the 8th smallest club in the division - we’re currently positioned roughly where we should be. The club has largely lost its soul and that needs rectifying before we can even start challenging at the top again.

Yes we spent a lot in the summer so should be expecting to be further up the table...but you have to spend wisely which is looks like we haven’t done once again.

You rarely go from relegation battles to chasing promotion. What we really need is gradual building for a few years. Our aim this season should be mid-lower table, following season 10th, then PO, etc.

This team/squad & fanbase are nowhere near ready to challenge yet. Get used to it

Please rank the championship from biggest to smallest so we can all argue about it.

Should be fun.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 15 Dec 2019 18:15

Notts Royal What gives us the divine right to expect to be challenging for promotion every year? We’re around the 8th smallest club in the division - we’re currently positioned roughly where we should be. The club has largely lost its soul and that needs rectifying before we can even start challenging at the top again.

Yes we spent a lot in the summer so should be expecting to be further up the table...but you have to spend wisely which is looks like we haven’t done once again.

You rarely go from relegation battles to chasing promotion. What we really need is gradual building for a few years. Our aim this season should be mid-lower table, following season 10th, then PO, etc.

This team/squad & fanbase are nowhere near ready to challenge yet. Get used to it


Except that’s exactly what we did within the space of a few games when Brian came on board. In 2009. Relegation bound (bottom of table a few times) up to 9th, a few points off playoffs. We subsequently went up.

Our boys have shown they are capable I disagree they are nowhere near. We have spent wisely and have some extremely good players. Our plastic fan base that we had in our PL seasons will rush back overnight if we start winning again. This idea of a slow sea change from squad to fan base before we can achieve anything is not accurate in my opinion and actually quite dangerous thinking as our best players will move on if we falter.

A manager who can unlock their potential is all we need. Bowen may well be that man. If he’s not he needs to go. The likes of Ejaria, Moore, Swift, Rino, Puscas etc etc will not hang around forever for us to become a big club. Strike while the iron is hot.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Westwood52 » 15 Dec 2019 18:43

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Notts Royal What gives us the divine right to expect to be challenging for promotion every year? We’re around the 8th smallest club in the division - we’re currently positioned roughly where we should be. The club has largely lost its soul and that needs rectifying before we can even start challenging at the top again.

Yes we spent a lot in the summer so should be expecting to be further up the table...but you have to spend wisely which is looks like we haven’t done once again.

You rarely go from relegation battles to chasing promotion. What we really need is gradual building for a few years. Our aim this season should be mid-lower table, following season 10th, then PO, etc.

This team/squad & fanbase are nowhere near ready to challenge yet. Get used to it


Except that’s exactly what we did within the space of a few games when Brian came on board. In 2009. Relegation bound (bottom of table a few times) up to 9th, a few points off playoffs. We subsequently went up.

Our boys have shown they are capable I disagree they are nowhere near. We have spent wisely and have some extremely good players. Our plastic fan base that we had in our PL seasons will rush back overnight if we start winning again. This idea of a slow sea change from squad to fan base before we can achieve anything is not accurate in my opinion and actually quite dangerous thinking as our best players will move on if we falter.

A manager who can unlock their potential is all we need. Bowen may well be that man. If he’s not he needs to go. The likes of Ejaria, Moore, Swift, Rino, Puscas etc etc will not hang around forever for us to become a big club. Strike while the iron is hot.


Who exactly is going to buy them ?Potentially Ovie is Prem quality;the rest are at best average Championship players;with a few in the squad Div 1 players.Cannot believe Leeds are interested in Rino.What do they need him for ? Maybe because he speaks Yorkshire.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by NewCorkSeth » 15 Dec 2019 18:46

Westwood52
2 world wars, 1 world cup
Notts Royal What gives us the divine right to expect to be challenging for promotion every year? We’re around the 8th smallest club in the division - we’re currently positioned roughly where we should be. The club has largely lost its soul and that needs rectifying before we can even start challenging at the top again.

Yes we spent a lot in the summer so should be expecting to be further up the table...but you have to spend wisely which is looks like we haven’t done once again.

You rarely go from relegation battles to chasing promotion. What we really need is gradual building for a few years. Our aim this season should be mid-lower table, following season 10th, then PO, etc.

This team/squad & fanbase are nowhere near ready to challenge yet. Get used to it


Except that’s exactly what we did within the space of a few games when Brian came on board. In 2009. Relegation bound (bottom of table a few times) up to 9th, a few points off playoffs. We subsequently went up.

Our boys have shown they are capable I disagree they are nowhere near. We have spent wisely and have some extremely good players. Our plastic fan base that we had in our PL seasons will rush back overnight if we start winning again. This idea of a slow sea change from squad to fan base before we can achieve anything is not accurate in my opinion and actually quite dangerous thinking as our best players will move on if we falter.

A manager who can unlock their potential is all we need. Bowen may well be that man. If he’s not he needs to go. The likes of Ejaria, Moore, Swift, Rino, Puscas etc etc will not hang around forever for us to become a big club. Strike while the iron is hot.


Who exactly is going to buy them ?Potentially Ovie is Prem quality;the rest are at best average Championship players;with a few in the squad Div 1 players.Cannot believe Leeds are interested in Rino.What do they need him for ? Maybe because he speaks Yorkshire.

If Bielsa actually wants Rinomhota you can probably trust they have done their homework on him. Easy to forget Bielsa is a great coach as well as manager. It's possible they have identified a role for Rinomhota that actually makes use of all his attributes. I love Swift and Ejaria but having them in the team has limited what Rinomhota is capable of doing. He can be a proper box to box mid which suits Leeds down to the ground.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Hound » 15 Dec 2019 18:50

Swift isn’t average champ standard, as we’ve found out without him in the last set of games


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Re: BFTG Stoke

by SouthDownsRoyal » 15 Dec 2019 19:29

I understand why people think it, especially due to the nature of modern day football but to talk about Bowen being under pressure in two games time is madness. Is this what we have become? Give someone 15 (+/-) games then pile pressure on them and intimate their position is in question?

Sure if we now hit a poor run of form we will be very close to or in the relegation zone, and we shouldn’t really be there with our squad as in the main it isn’t too bad.

But unless we have a manager we are willing to stick by and go through the good and the bad with, we will just be a sacking club and go round in (expensive) circles for donkeys years.

He has the job to the end of season, give him the season and we will finish where we deserve too. Then the owners can decide whether he deserves backing with a new deal or get another new manager.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Snowball » 15 Dec 2019 20:28

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Snowflake Royal Without the first 4, we're LLWLDD

So 5 from 6. About 0.8ppg. Which isn't great, but isn't awful and is certainly an improvement on how Gomes finished.


So, pretty horrific then if we're honest. 37points over the season, dead cert relegation. My farts are an improvement on how Gomes finished, that's irrelevant.



You can't just say "Let's ignore 40% of the games"

Why not ignore the most recent four games?

A manager is judged over all his games. The team will go down or stay up based on
what happened under Gomes plus ALL the games following.

The most recent games are two away draws, an away win, a narrow one
goal away defeat to Brentford, a narrow home defeat to Leeds, and just
one poor defeat, home to Birmingham.

Most sides have not-so-great runs. This run hardly stinks.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Snowball » 15 Dec 2019 20:32

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Of course, which was my point. I was responding to Snowballisation.




WTF? I looked at ALL the games under Bowen.

What is bent or iffy or "selective" about that?

Bonkers!

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 15 Dec 2019 20:55

Snowball
2 world wars, 1 world cup
Of course, which was my point. I was responding to Snowballisation.




WTF? I looked at ALL the games under Bowen.

What is bent or iffy or "selective" about that?

Bonkers!


Still a ridiculously small sample and you (should) know it. I could argue the opposite factoring in the honeymoon phenomenon, which is reasonable. Recent trend is also reasonable. You have done this several times in the past. Simple point made by me. If you don’t get that then you have no business trying to be the defacto HNA statman, sorry and I’m not particularly keen on discussing further.

EDIT: I don't want to come across as a nob though mate. I'm still behind the guy as I say and of course overall Bowen has done well and of course it's equally (or actually MORE) reasonable to take all the games into account as you have done. I am merely just raising a question mark at this early stage that's all. Probably harsh, I know, but this is a discussion forum after all and if everyone was knocking Bowen for the last three performances I'd be saying exactly what you did to balance it out.


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Re: BFTG Stoke

by leon » 16 Dec 2019 00:59

Ok so I’m now really confused

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Old Man Andrews » 16 Dec 2019 08:14

Bowen has made us more solid and has gone back to basics. We can now grind out results that we would never have done under Gomes. This is a positive.

The negative is that the football is poor and deeply uninspiring.

Bowen keeps us in the division but no more than that for me. His contract is up at the end of the season where I can see him heading back upstairs and a new manager coming in. Hopefully it will be the ever impressive Gareth Ainsworth.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Hound » 16 Dec 2019 08:45

Old Man Andrews
The negative is that the football is poor and deeply uninspiring.
.


Its a shame that really, as his first few games were encouraging and entertaining. But yeah agreed the last few have been poor

Hopefully Swift/Ejaria coming back will tilt the balance back

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 16 Dec 2019 09:05

Hound
Old Man Andrews
The negative is that the football is poor and deeply uninspiring.
.


Its a shame that really, as his first few games were encouraging and entertaining. But yeah agreed the last few have been poor

Hopefully Swift/Ejaria coming back will tilt the balance back


Despite my question marks about him above, let's consider his Stoke post-match interview where he explained Miazga and McIntyre both injured so he had to go 4 at the back. Obita also out with family issues so Blackett was brought in. We know Swift is out, as is Puscas and Ejaria is just about back to himself. He made no apologies for tippy tappy passing it at the back, it was his game plan to keep a clean sheet and calm things down after the poor performance at Barnsley.

Perhaps this uninspiring patch is what is needed to calm things down as he says, get the away points, clean sheet and then go back to something more inspiring when he has full squad back. The jury is out though and I'm with OMA with if he doesn't show 2009-10 McDermott-esque marked improvement we need someone in who can deliver that.


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Re: BFTG Stoke

by morganb » 16 Dec 2019 09:10

Hound
Old Man Andrews
The negative is that the football is poor and deeply uninspiring.
.


Its a shame that really, as his first few games were encouraging and entertaining. But yeah agreed the last few have been poor

Hopefully Swift/Ejaria coming back will tilt the balance back


Yes, hopefully as the team had look poor since Swift was injured against Leeds and perhaps his presence could have turned the draws into wins.

It's interesting that Swift and Ejaria tend to now get mentioned as a pair as Ejaria has been back for a couple of games and has had minimal impact on the results, though perhaps he wasn't quite match fit?


Previously the view was that the two together created a powder puff midfield but it looks like one doesn't operate as well without the other. Evidently Ejaria doesn't have the same chemistry with Adam.


I wonder how it would work if it was only Swift in the team without Ejaria?

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Stranded » 16 Dec 2019 09:27

Seriously, we've had a couple of poor performances playing a disjointed midfield due to 2 of the first names on the teamsheet being out - we're undefeated in the past 3 away games (winning 1 of them) and could have snatched a win at Barnsley if Meite hits the target.

We are in a club and team in transistion, we will have streaks where we play well and we will have streaks where we don't play so well - the last 4 games in particular the latter is true yet we still have 5 points from 12 and 3 of those games were away from home.

The only major mistake I think Bowen made was going 4-4-2 at half time v Brum - first half wasn't pretty but we had got back in it and should have stayed in our original shape for 15 mins before going for it a little later - that cost us at least 1 point.

We have a chance on Saturday to extend the gap to the bottom 3 and jump above Derby too - it is time for us to take one of these chances and get above some more teams.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Snowball » 16 Dec 2019 14:20

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Snowball
2 world wars, 1 world cup
Of course, which was my point. I was responding to Snowballisation.




WTF? I looked at ALL the games under Bowen.

What is bent or iffy or "selective" about that?

Bonkers!


Still a ridiculously small sample and you (should) know it. I could argue the opposite factoring in the honeymoon phenomenon, which is reasonable. Recent trend is also reasonable. You have done this several times in the past. Simple point made by me. If you don’t get that then you have no business trying to be the defacto HNA statman, sorry and I’m not particularly keen on discussing further.

EDIT: I don't want to come across as a nob though mate. I'm still behind the guy as I say and of course overall Bowen has done well and of course it's equally (or actually MORE) reasonable to take all the games into account as you have done. I am merely just raising a question mark at this early stage that's all. Probably harsh, I know, but this is a discussion forum after all and if everyone was knocking Bowen for the last three performances I'd be saying exactly what you did to balance it out.



Let me get this right


"10 Games (all of Bowen's games) is too small a sample.

So we should use SIX games."


Got it. Yeah, much more sensible


When the sample size is not 46, maybe choosing the largest POSSIBLE sample size is a good idea.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 16 Dec 2019 14:31

Snowball
2 world wars, 1 world cup
Snowball

WTF? I looked at ALL the games under Bowen.

What is bent or iffy or "selective" about that?

Bonkers!


Still a ridiculously small sample and you (should) know it. I could argue the opposite factoring in the honeymoon phenomenon, which is reasonable. Recent trend is also reasonable. You have done this several times in the past. Simple point made by me. If you don’t get that then you have no business trying to be the defacto HNA statman, sorry and I’m not particularly keen on discussing further.

EDIT: I don't want to come across as a nob though mate. I'm still behind the guy as I say and of course overall Bowen has done well and of course it's equally (or actually MORE) reasonable to take all the games into account as you have done. I am merely just raising a question mark at this early stage that's all. Probably harsh, I know, but this is a discussion forum after all and if everyone was knocking Bowen for the last three performances I'd be saying exactly what you did to balance it out.



Let me get this right


"10 Games (all of Bowen's games) is too small a sample.

So we should use SIX games."


Got it. Yeah, much more sensible


When the sample size is not 46, maybe choosing the largest POSSIBLE sample size is a good idea.


Ok sorry but you're being really thick. Sorry but I have to call it as it is. I'm out.

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Hound » 16 Dec 2019 15:11

2 world wars, 1 world cup Ok sorry but you're being really thick. Sorry but I have to call it as it is. I'm out.


Probs for the best tbf

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Vision » 16 Dec 2019 15:22

Snowball
2 world wars, 1 world cup
Snowflake Royal Without the first 4, we're LLWLDD

So 5 from 6. About 0.8ppg. Which isn't great, but isn't awful and is certainly an improvement on how Gomes finished.


So, pretty horrific then if we're honest. 37points over the season, dead cert relegation. My farts are an improvement on how Gomes finished, that's irrelevant.



You can't just say "Let's ignore 40% of the games"

Why not ignore the most recent four games?

A manager is judged over all his games. The team will go down or stay up based on
what happened under Gomes plus ALL the games following.

The most recent games are two away draws, an away win, a narrow one
goal away defeat to Brentford, a narrow home defeat to Leeds, and just
one poor defeat, home to Birmingham.

Most sides have not-so-great runs. This run hardly stinks.


Hold on, aren't you the one who said in the past we should ignore a new manager's first two games?

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Re: BFTG Stoke

by Victor Meldrew » 16 Dec 2019 16:20

Vision
Snowball
2 world wars, 1 world cup
So, pretty horrific then if we're honest. 37points over the season, dead cert relegation. My farts are an improvement on how Gomes finished, that's irrelevant.



You can't just say "Let's ignore 40% of the games"

Why not ignore the most recent four games?

A manager is judged over all his games. The team will go down or stay up based on
what happened under Gomes plus ALL the games following.

The most recent games are two away draws, an away win, a narrow one
goal away defeat to Brentford, a narrow home defeat to Leeds, and just
one poor defeat, home to Birmingham.

Most sides have not-so-great runs. This run hardly stinks.


Hold on, aren't you the one who said in the past we should ignore a new manager's first two games?


Ah but those managers weren't Welsh (snowball favouring his own?) :wink:

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