Player of the season so far...

User avatar
genome
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 18982
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 13:29
Location: Universe

Re: Player of the season so far...

by genome » 17 Feb 2020 16:02

The fact that we are arguing over who has been the best, is a good sign.

For the last few season's we've been arguing over who has been the least shit.

Nameless
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5646
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 12:25

Re: Player of the season so far...

by Nameless » 17 Feb 2020 16:03

genome I remember Snowball's phase of giving us stats for "half assists"


I may introduce 'unassists' for players who fail to play the right pass and mess up an attack or try speculative shots rather than passing to better placed team mates.

User avatar
Hendo
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6972
Joined: 25 Mar 2012 20:53

Re: Player of the season so far...

by Hendo » 17 Feb 2020 16:05

Nameless
genome I remember Snowball's phase of giving us stats for "half assists"


I may introduce 'unassists' for players who fail to play the right pass and mess up an attack or try speculative shots rather than passing to better placed team mates.


You'd run out of room on Excel if doing it for Reading FC, etc..

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7064
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: Player of the season so far...

by NewCorkSeth » 17 Feb 2020 16:08

Nameless
NewCorkSeth
leon
Mans got a point.

Football is more complicated than you’re making out.

Bruh. I said "assists are a useful metric to show how many chances a player creates" and you think that is simplifying football?

I said if assists are a junk stat based on the other factors involved then it's the same for defensive blocks and I'm the one who is simplifying football?


Not simplifying it, just not really making a very good job of arguing your case !
It's obvious that many goals result from the work of a number of players. Sometimes (Puscas v Cardiff for example) a player creates a goal pretty much on their own but that's rare.
In the example of the sort of defensive blocks Moore and Morrison have pulled off this season they were absolutely one man efforts, throwing themselves in front of an attacker as they shoot to stop a goal bound effort. you simply are failing to recognise that the two are totally incomparable.
I think your problem is using the word 'useful'. They are a statistic that gives a very loose idea of who creates chances, but no more than that. They also underplay the value of all the other players involved. They don't differentiate between the mundane and the sublime, a defence splitting 40 yard pass is as much an 'assist' as a simple 5 yard pass and I dare say a miscued pass which a defender fails to cut out is considered on a par with a brilliant pass.

Anyway, back to POTS !!!

They are comparable. I would suggest that the frequency of a defender pulling off a goal saving block without any assistance from a team mate is similar to the frequency of a player pulling off an assist without any assistance from a team mate.

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7064
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: Player of the season so far...

by NewCorkSeth » 17 Feb 2020 16:11

Hilariously Second Tier Podcast have just this minute shared the players who have created the most chances in the championship this season. Guess who is top?


URZZZZ
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3415
Joined: 20 Apr 2013 18:30

Re: Player of the season so far...

by URZZZZ » 17 Feb 2020 16:27

Nameless
NewCorkSeth
leon
Mans got a point.

Football is more complicated than you’re making out.

Bruh. I said "assists are a useful metric to show how many chances a player creates" and you think that is simplifying football?

I said if assists are a junk stat based on the other factors involved then it's the same for defensive blocks and I'm the one who is simplifying football?


Not simplifying it, just not really making a very good job of arguing your case !
It's obvious that many goals result from the work of a number of players. Sometimes (Puscas v Cardiff for example) a player creates a goal pretty much on their own but that's rare.
In the example of the sort of defensive blocks Moore and Morrison have pulled off this season they were absolutely one man efforts, throwing themselves in front of an attacker as they shoot to stop a goal bound effort. you simply are failing to recognise that the two are totally incomparable.
I think your problem is using the word 'useful'. They are a statistic that gives a very loose idea of who creates chances, but no more than that. They also underplay the value of all the other players involved. They don't differentiate between the mundane and the sublime, a defence splitting 40 yard pass is as much an 'assist' as a simple 5 yard pass and I dare say a miscued pass which a defender fails to cut out is considered on a par with a brilliant pass.

Anyway, back to POTS !!!


A goal doesn’t differentiate between the sublime and mundane either so I guess we ignore goals scored stats then right?

How strange

Nameless
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5646
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 12:25

Re: Player of the season so far...

by Nameless » 17 Feb 2020 16:34

URZZZZ
Nameless
NewCorkSeth Bruh. I said "assists are a useful metric to show how many chances a player creates" and you think that is simplifying football?

I said if assists are a junk stat based on the other factors involved then it's the same for defensive blocks and I'm the one who is simplifying football?


Not simplifying it, just not really making a very good job of arguing your case !
It's obvious that many goals result from the work of a number of players. Sometimes (Puscas v Cardiff for example) a player creates a goal pretty much on their own but that's rare.
In the example of the sort of defensive blocks Moore and Morrison have pulled off this season they were absolutely one man efforts, throwing themselves in front of an attacker as they shoot to stop a goal bound effort. you simply are failing to recognise that the two are totally incomparable.
I think your problem is using the word 'useful'. They are a statistic that gives a very loose idea of who creates chances, but no more than that. They also underplay the value of all the other players involved. They don't differentiate between the mundane and the sublime, a defence splitting 40 yard pass is as much an 'assist' as a simple 5 yard pass and I dare say a miscued pass which a defender fails to cut out is considered on a par with a brilliant pass.

Anyway, back to POTS !!!


A goal doesn’t differentiate between the sublime and mundane either so I guess we ignore goals scored stats then right?

How strange


Well a goal is a black and white objective thing that is the fundamental point of the game.
An assist is a very grey, subjective thing borrowed from other sports to try and make it look like football can be reduced to statistics.
So no, let's keep recording the things that lend themselves to that and treat spurious 'statistics' with the caution they merit.

Nameless
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5646
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 12:25

Re: Player of the season so far...

by Nameless » 17 Feb 2020 16:36

NewCorkSeth
Nameless
NewCorkSeth Bruh. I said "assists are a useful metric to show how many chances a player creates" and you think that is simplifying football?

I said if assists are a junk stat based on the other factors involved then it's the same for defensive blocks and I'm the one who is simplifying football?


Not simplifying it, just not really making a very good job of arguing your case !
It's obvious that many goals result from the work of a number of players. Sometimes (Puscas v Cardiff for example) a player creates a goal pretty much on their own but that's rare.
In the example of the sort of defensive blocks Moore and Morrison have pulled off this season they were absolutely one man efforts, throwing themselves in front of an attacker as they shoot to stop a goal bound effort. you simply are failing to recognise that the two are totally incomparable.
I think your problem is using the word 'useful'. They are a statistic that gives a very loose idea of who creates chances, but no more than that. They also underplay the value of all the other players involved. They don't differentiate between the mundane and the sublime, a defence splitting 40 yard pass is as much an 'assist' as a simple 5 yard pass and I dare say a miscued pass which a defender fails to cut out is considered on a par with a brilliant pass.

Anyway, back to POTS !!!

They are comparable. I would suggest that the frequency of a defender pulling off a goal saving block without any assistance from a team mate is similar to the frequency of a player pulling off an assist without any assistance from a team mate.


Every goal saving block I have seen this season has been a solo effort. There is really no way a teammate can get an assist for the sort of blocks Moore and Morrison pull off. It just doesn't work like that. I think you are thinking of something else. How on earth would Richards (say) provide assistance to Moore in pulling off a last ditch saving tackle ?

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7064
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: Player of the season so far...

by NewCorkSeth » 17 Feb 2020 16:51

Nameless
NewCorkSeth
Nameless
Not simplifying it, just not really making a very good job of arguing your case !
It's obvious that many goals result from the work of a number of players. Sometimes (Puscas v Cardiff for example) a player creates a goal pretty much on their own but that's rare.
In the example of the sort of defensive blocks Moore and Morrison have pulled off this season they were absolutely one man efforts, throwing themselves in front of an attacker as they shoot to stop a goal bound effort. you simply are failing to recognise that the two are totally incomparable.
I think your problem is using the word 'useful'. They are a statistic that gives a very loose idea of who creates chances, but no more than that. They also underplay the value of all the other players involved. They don't differentiate between the mundane and the sublime, a defence splitting 40 yard pass is as much an 'assist' as a simple 5 yard pass and I dare say a miscued pass which a defender fails to cut out is considered on a par with a brilliant pass.

Anyway, back to POTS !!!

They are comparable. I would suggest that the frequency of a defender pulling off a goal saving block without any assistance from a team mate is similar to the frequency of a player pulling off an assist without any assistance from a team mate.


Every goal saving block I have seen this season has been a solo effort. There is really no way a teammate can get an assist for the sort of blocks Moore and Morrison pull off. It just doesn't work like that. I think you are thinking of something else. How on earth would Richards (say) provide assistance to Moore in pulling off a last ditch saving tackle ?

By blocking passing routes or closing down the player altering his direction/slowing him down. If an opposition player is running at our defence, is closed down quickly by Richards but manages to get passed him he has been slowed down sufficiently to allow Moore the time or position to complete said last ditch tackle.

Moore and Morrison have blocked 76 shots combined this season. Many of those we can safely assume were not headed goal bound or were tame efforts that wouldnt trouble any keeper other than Virginia. I think Morrison has probably been our 3rd best player this season on the whole. He has made some great game changing tackles and 2 goal line clearances but when weighted against the creative force of Swift the scales dont tip in Morrisons favour.


User avatar
John Madejski's Wallet
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 13540
Joined: 10 Apr 2005 00:22
Location: Anyone who lives within their means shows a serious lack of imagination

Re: Player of the season so far...

by John Madejski's Wallet » 17 Feb 2020 17:02

I dissed him to start and didn't see the point, but for me its Pele/Gomez.

An absolute beast

User avatar
NewCorkSeth
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7064
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 00:17
Location: Wherever Nameless may be.

Re: Player of the season so far...

by NewCorkSeth » 17 Feb 2020 17:02

John Madejski's Wallet I dissed him to start and didn't see the point, but for me its Pele/Gomez.

An absolute beast

2nd for me.

User avatar
Hendo
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6972
Joined: 25 Mar 2012 20:53

Re: Player of the season so far...

by Hendo » 17 Feb 2020 17:03

John Madejski's Wallet I dissed him to start and didn't see the point, but for me its Pele/Gomez.

An absolute beast


Really grown into his role and is performing really well.

I would like to think the club will be enquiring how much Monaco would be looking for him.

User avatar
leon
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11803
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 09:18
Location: Hips, Lips, Tits, Power

Re: Player of the season so far...

by leon » 17 Feb 2020 17:07

John Madejski's Wallet I dissed him to start and didn't see the point, but for me its Pele/Gomez.

An absolute beast


This football team needs a spine and Rafael, Moore, Morrison and Pelé give us that. So Pelé it is I reckon.


User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 11464
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Player of the season so far...

by Snowflake Royal » 17 Feb 2020 17:25

Nameless
NewCorkSeth
Nameless
OK, on the one hand that's fundamentally wrong and on the other hand I guess you are agreeing with me !

If assists are a useless stat because multiple people are involved in the contribution then it is frequently the same for defensive blocks. For example if Moore was to get a good block on an onrushing defender that might only have been possible due to Morrison covering behind, Richards blocking a pass to the wing and Pele closing down from behind. Team effort.

Assists are a useful metric to show how many chances a player creates. Sure you can say "it wouldnt have happened if player b didnt make the run out wide pulling a player out of position" but they still have to get the pass right and make the right pass.


No, fundamentally wrong !
Assists don't show anything really, the key pass of a move might have been 4 or 5 passes back. Did Puscas create Meite's goal on Saturday with his dummy or was it Ejaria's pass ?
The defensive blocks in question have been players throwing themselves in front of shots, absolutely nothing to do with any other player.
You are not going to convince anyone, so give up now....

Ejaria's pass.

Assists are a good stat, as long as you don't put too much weight on them. Or think they mean no other type of contribution is meaningful. They're certainly more useful than ignoring them completely and relying just on subjective view of the game.
Last edited by Snowflake Royal on 17 Feb 2020 17:27, edited 1 time in total.

2 world wars, 1 world cup
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5265
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 18:36
Location: Shite little island soon to be sick man of Europe again and claim our rightful place as USA's bitch.

Re: Player of the season so far...

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 17 Feb 2020 17:26

Inspector Gadget.

User avatar
bcubed
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5092
Joined: 30 Oct 2004 18:16
Location: Would do better with a stick of rhubarb

Re: Player of the season so far...

by bcubed » 25 Feb 2020 12:52

John Madejski's Wallet I dissed him to start and didn't see the point, but for me its Pele/Gomez.

An absolute beast


What he said

A stand out POTSSF for me - has just got better and better
Great awareness/positioning, great passing and makes a fair few tackles/interceptions too

karbota
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: 16 Mar 2019 16:36

Re: Player of the season so far...

by karbota » 25 Feb 2020 14:37

Snowflake Royal Swift
Morrison
Pele

Honourable mentions to Meite, Moore, Cabral


No Puscas then, got the message at last?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: One Beer is never enough. and 32 guests

It is currently 29 Mar 2020 22:57