Latest club accounts

[Extended-Phenotype]

1. No points deductions. 2. No threat of being wound up and costly legal battles against HMRC. 3. Actually having some integrity. 4. No risk of assets (when I say assets I mean things like the Stadium, training ground, hotel) being flogged off on the cheap to find a bit of cash to pay the bills. You can't get a Stadium on the cheap and then flog it for a huge profit, plowing a small proportion of that money into a new stadium and go through the process again.

I’m arguing ‘cos I’m bored, probably.

1. We are strangling ourselves to avoid a punishment that what, just 20 teams have suffered in footballs existence? And I’ll wager over half of those have survived relegation or even still managed promotion.

2. The point equivalent of Hue & Cry : "Labour of Love" on Now 24. Filler.

3. Monie Love : "Born 2 B.R.E.E.D."

4. And how many football teams has that happened to? It’s like going to the trouble of spraying ourselves in kangaroo deterrent and holidaying in Bracknell.

5. World Party : "Is It Like Today?"

[mr_number]

1. No points deductions. 2. No threat of being wound up and costly legal battles against HMRC. 3. Actually having some integrity. 4. No risk of assets (when I say assets I mean things like the Stadium, training ground, hotel) being flogged off on the cheap to find a bit of cash to pay the bills. You can't get a Stadium on the cheap and then flog it for a huge profit, plowing a small proportion of that money into a new stadium and go through the process again.

I’m arguing ‘cos I’m bored, probably.

1. We are strangling ourselves to avoid a punishment that what, just 20 teams have suffered in footballs existence? And I’ll wager over half of those have survived relegation or even still managed promotion.

2. The point equivalent of Hue & Cry : "Labour of Love" on Now 24. Filler.

3. Monie Love : "Born 2 B.R.E.E.D."

4. And how many football teams has that happened to? It’s like going to the trouble of spraying ourselves in kangaroo deterrent and holidaying in Bracknell.

5. World Party : "Is It Like Today?"

Have you never heard of the Moral Highground? Cos that's where we're sat right now, and ain't the view worth it?

[STAR Liaison]

If it is just one year's account where we're making a loss due to depreciation

I don't believe we are. I think that was just the EP looking at the account and seeing £5m depreciation when in fact it was also £5m in previous seasons.

The real reason I think we are making a loss, and I haven't seen the accounts, is that this is the first season without parachute payments. If my estimations are correct we have lost £11m in revenue by not having them but we have only had an approximately £7.5m swing from profit to loss which would indicate we have done a decent job of cutting costs further.

But like I said I haven't seen the account so I could be wide of the mark with those comments.

I have a copy of the accounts as STAR has shares and I have only quickly scanned them but don't recognise £5m of depreciation in fact on the balance sheet the fixed assets are down £2.5m (mostly tangible assets so nothing to do with players). What I do see is £5m profit on disposal of players.

The operating costs are very similar to the previous year and turnover is down £10m (which given the loss of the parachute payment means they increased matchday/tv/sponsorship income by £1m).

In cash flow terms the debtors has decreased substanitally so presumably the player sales in instalments (and accounted for when the player went) have been coming in to keep cash flow but won't so much in the future. Chairman loan has increased by £.5m but other creditors decreased so the total is roughly as the previous year. I only have the consolidated accounts so no real feel for the hotel/football split.

We have the offer (and co-operation of the club) of detailed analysis of the accounts once they have been passed by the AGM as per 'where's the money gone' in the Whiff so should have better details then.

[melonhead]

i love you star liason

[mr_number]

I for one can barely wait for us to all show our lack of accountancy knowledge and propely this topic of conversation on for the next six months.

[Royal Rother]

just missed out on playoffs, playoff final, great cup runs, just outside of playoffs now
and one of the only teams to be relegated from the prem, who didnt make it straight back up who didnt go down to league 1/go into administration

yeah, awful

its amazing we have any fans at all, if thats anything to go by,
when i was watching awful football at elm park id have killed for that kind of shite football and lack of success.

F//ing Spin doctor.

F//ing Tedious Wan/er.

[Ian Royal]

1. No points deductions. 2. No threat of being wound up and costly legal battles against HMRC. 3. Actually having some integrity. 4. No risk of assets (when I say assets I mean things like the Stadium, training ground, hotel) being flogged off on the cheap to find a bit of cash to pay the bills. You can't get a Stadium on the cheap and then flog it for a huge profit, plowing a small proportion of that money into a new stadium and go through the process again.

I’m arguing ‘cos I’m bored, probably.

1. We are strangling ourselves to avoid a punishment that what, just 20 teams have suffered in footballs existence? And I’ll wager over half of those have survived relegation or even still managed promotion.
Given the points deduction system has really only been used the last 10 - 20 years that's rather a pathetic point. How many clubs have had PDs in the last 5 years? I think it's quite a few and there's no sign of it stopping. Obviously we'd be far better off risking it. Just look at Pompey, they managed to win a trophy and be an established Prem club, until everything caught up with them and they're now mid-table Championship also rans with an owner under prosecution, no money AGAIN and the threat of yet another points deduction. The extreme case, admittedly.
2. The point equivalent of Hue & Cry : "Labour of Love" on Now 24. Filler.
Oh, so if we failed to pay our tax bill and were in court with a winding up order from HMRC you wouldn't be worried in the slightest? Or be concerned that we could be spending the cost of defence on, oh I don't know... players?
3. Monie Love : "Born 2 B.R.E.E.D."
Personally one of the reasons I'll stick with the club through thick and thin is because I feel I can actually be proud of it and that we act in the right way. If morality means nothing to you, fair enough.
4. And how many football teams has that happened to? It’s like going to the trouble of spraying ourselves in kangaroo deterrent and holidaying in Bracknell.
How many clubs have had their grounds etc sold out from under them? Plenty, it's one way of making loads of money out of a club. Certainly happens in the lower leagues, and I'm sure Dirk could give you examples.
5. World Party : "Is It Like Today?"

[Franchise FC]

You also need to understand the difference between accounting profit and the actual cash movements. If we have lost £5.3m in the year due to depreciation of assets then this is not cash that has been lost as depreciation is not a cash item.

As for players I always thought it was their contract that was the asset and that is what is depreciated. So a player with six months to go an a contract may have an asset value of practically nothing, yet he could be sold in the January transfer window for a few million. I may be wrong on that assumption though.

But we don't know which assets have been depreciated - it could be players, it could be the stadium, it could be the training ground, etc......I guess we'll have to wait and see when the accounts are published.

Obviously cash is highly important, but you can't go discounting losses saying "It's only depreciation."

Ultimately losses mean the club is worse off than they were 12 months ago. End of.

Not necessarily, there are businesses out there that turn a loss nearly every year but which are doing quite well and continuing to grow, yet you have others who always turn a profit and go out of business. The reason is nearly always cash flow. The problem is that non-finance people always see the profit or loss as the be-all and end-all of how is business is doing yet it is probably the least important financial statement that a business produces.

The financial Holy Trinity - Balance Sheet, Profit & Loss Account & Cash Flow

[Northern Git]

No points deductions. No threat of being wound up and costly legal battles against HMRC. Actually having some integrity. No risk of assets (when I say assets I mean things like the Stadium, training ground, hotel) being flogged off on the cheap to find a bit of cash to pay the bills. You can't get a Stadium on the cheap and then flog it for a huge profit, plowing a small proportion of that money into a new stadium and go through the process again.

Sorry to be a bit nit picking here Ian but cannot 'flog off' the training ground as its not owned by the club.

And as Star has seen the accounts (all be it the consolidated ones) can you give us a cost of the accountancy charges for the period and, unlikely I know, the inter company trading figures and management fees?

Thanks in advance

[Ian Royal]

It was just an example off the top of my head of the sort of thing that can be sold to asset strip a club.

And it could be sold off to someone who'd charge us far more to use it.

[SpaceCruiser]

4. And how many football teams has that happened to? It’s like going to the trouble of spraying ourselves in kangaroo deterrent and holidaying in Bracknell.

You're a bit of an idiot, aren't you?

I can think of a few examples off the top of my head:

1) Rotherham are currently forced to play at some ground in Sheffield

2) Brighton played at the Withdean, a dump, for a number of years. Don't know why they moved to a new stadium this year, that dump was perfectly fine for them. Also, I seem to remember that they played their home games in Gillingham, briefly.

3)Charlton played at some other stadium before moving back to The Valley.

4) Wimbledon were forced to leave Plough Lane and play at Selhurst Park.

and I'm sure there must be a few other examples, not to mention some clubs selling off their training grounds to stay alive. And getting rid of reserves because they couldn't afford to have a second team - something we did back in the 90's, I think.

[Svlad Cjelli]

4. And how many football teams has that happened to? It’s like going to the trouble of spraying ourselves in kangaroo deterrent and holidaying in Bracknell.

Insolvency events of Football Leageu clubs since the formation of the Premier League @

1992 : Aldershot, Maidstone Utd, Northampton Town (3)
1993 : (0)
1994 : Barnet, Hartlepool Utd, Exeter City (3)
1995 : Gillingham (1)
1996 : (0)
1997 : AFC Bournmouth, Darlington, Doncaster Rovers, Millwall (4)
1998 : Chester City, Herefore Utd (2)
1999 : Crystal Palace, Halifax Town, Oxford Utd, Portsmouth (4)
2000 : Swindon Town (1)
2001 : Chesterfield, Hull City, QPR, Swansea City (4)
2002 : Barnsley, Bradford City, Bury, Carlisle Utd, Halifax Town, Leicester City, Lincoln City, Notts County, Swindown Town, York City (10)
2003 : Darlington, Huddersfield Town, Ipswich Town, Luton Town, Oldham Athletic, Wimbledon (6)
2004 : Bradford City, Wrexham (2)
2005 : Cambridge Utd (1)
2006 : Rotherham Utd (1)
2007 : Leeds Utd, Luton Town, Boston Utd (3)
2008 : AFC Bournemouth, Rotherham Utd (2)
2009 : Chester City, Darlington, Southampton, Stockport County (4)
2010 : Crystal Palace, Portsmouth (2)
2011 : Plymouth Argyle (1)

Total = 54 events

[STAR Liaison]

And as Star has seen the accounts (all be it the consolidated ones) can you give us a cost of the accountancy charges for the period and, unlikely I know, the inter company trading figures and management fees?

Thanks in advance

Not got that level of detail - sorry. It may be possible once Bucks Dave gets his hands on them.

[Royal Rother]

No points deductions. No threat of being wound up and costly legal battles against HMRC. Actually having some integrity. No risk of assets (when I say assets I mean things like the Stadium, training ground, hotel) being flogged off on the cheap to find a bit of cash to pay the bills. You can't get a Stadium on the cheap and then flog it for a huge profit, plowing a small proportion of that money into a new stadium and go through the process again.

Sorry to be a bit nit picking here Ian but cannot 'flog off' the training ground as its not owned by the club.

And as Star has seen the accounts (all be it the consolidated ones) can you give us a cost of the accountancy charges for the period and, unlikely I know, the inter company trading figures and management fees?

Thanks in advance

Still thinking SJM is raping the company via the back door eh?

[Royal Rother]

Don't know whether this has already been discussed but the £5.3m loss is for the y/e June 2010, yes?

Sigurdsson was sold in August 2010, yes?

His sale recovered the deficit in those accounts but is not reflected in them. If he had been sold right at the end of the 2009/10 season then the club would have shown a break even position as near as dammit.

Similar will have happened in the y/e June 2011 with Long and Mills but the y/e June 2011 should, presumably, be break even or thereabouts because the sale of Sigurdsson will be included therein.

Nothing has changed at all, but the very fact of recording a loss will suddenly give the demented further reason to think the club is badly run. In reality it's just a fact that the summer sales will cover the previous season's trading loss but unless the deals are completed pre end of June they will not be offset against that particular year's loss.

Generally speaking one year's deficit is covered by the following year's player sales and it is only the 1st year of the cycle that records a loss.

[mr_number]

Oh god, I nearly got drawn into this on Twitter, thus risking making me look an idiot in real life as well as on here.

[Terminal Boardom]

The main areas of concern to me in the article are the fact that the wage bill is 90% of turnover and the fact that SJM has increased his loans to £26.3 million.

Although it is clearly better to owe money to your own Chairman than to HMRC or Inland Revenue or even to have the debts spread around other parties, I still don't believe it is a healthy situation that the amount due to SJM, a man of 70 years of age, has increased again and not reduced. I cannot suggest a way things could have been handled better, except to cut costs which wouldn't have been popular with many of us, but the level of debt still concerns me no matter who it is owed to.

This figure leapt out at me when I read the Scrote item. How can this be sustainable? The only way I see it is that there is always a need to sell a high earner in order to keep heads above water.

RR makes a valid point about the sale of Gylfi which makes to following quote from SJM baffling:

“Our budget was set with the intention of supporting the costs of the playing squad through player trading, and we did so primarily with the sale of Gylfi Sigurdssðn to Hoffenheim.”

I still think the football club can do a lot more when it comes to exploring additional revenue streams.

[Extended-Phenotype]

F//ing Tedious Wan/er.

Hey sobfart - my w&nks are far from tedious; one involving a trapeze even made South Today.

Yours would only make the news if you forgot to wipe your hard drive before taking it in for repair.

[Royal Rother]

RR makes a valid point about the sale of Gylfi which makes to following quote from SJM baffling:

“Our budget was set with the intention of supporting the costs of the playing squad through player trading, and we did so primarily with the sale of Gylfi Sigurdssðn to Hoffenheim.”

Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense, but I guess he forgot to mention that said sale occurred AFTER those accounts, which would have helped everyone have a better understanding.

I reckon I've got a better grip on it than SJM has!

[Svlad Cjelli]

RR makes a valid point about the sale of Gylfi which makes to following quote from SJM baffling:

“Our budget was set with the intention of supporting the costs of the playing squad through player trading, and we did so primarily with the sale of Gylfi Sigurdssðn to Hoffenheim.”

Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense, but I guess he forgot to mention that said sale occurred AFTER those accounts, which would have helped everyone have a better understanding.

I reckon I've got a better grip on it than SJM has!

He pays people to look after such things for him - the problem comes when he has to talk about them in public.