VAR

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tmesis
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Re: VAR

by tmesis » 26 Jun 2018 20:36

Sutekh So, in essence, rather than the ref making an instant decision rightly or wrongly, he now gets to stop play, think about it and then make a decision rightly or wrongly. Therefore all that’s happened is the game gets stopped unnecessarily while it takes longer to establish the same controversial decisions that we’d all have if this technology wasn’t there..


Yep. It's been a complete waste of time because there have been no cases at all so far where the initial decision was shown to be wrong, and corrected.

Oh no..., that's wrong, isn't it?

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 27 Jun 2018 10:48

tmesis
Sutekh So, in essence, rather than the ref making an instant decision rightly or wrongly, he now gets to stop play, think about it and then make a decision rightly or wrongly. Therefore all that’s happened is the game gets stopped unnecessarily while it takes longer to establish the same controversial decisions that we’d all have if this technology wasn’t there..


Yep. It's been a complete waste of time because there have been no cases at all so far where the initial decision was shown to be wrong, and corrected.

Oh no..., that's wrong, isn't it?


There was an article I'd read in the last couple of days where they suggested that VAR got 14 of 15 decisions right. I think that's debatable for starters, but what it certainly didn't do was count the decisions that VAR didn't flag up when you'd think it probably should've done, eg Kane being wrestled to the ground against Tunisia.

I'm no fan of VAR and I think it's already had quite an impact on the games (for some, like Rio Ferdinand, that may be positive in terms of the new found drama), the way officials make decisions and how players have behaved. For me, not a lot of it has been positive BUT that might change over time as things bed down.

One thing that I think is pretty clear though is that there is still a massive debate around what is and isn't a clear and obvious mistake and what a correct decision actual looks like.

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John Madejski's Wallet
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Re: VAR

by John Madejski's Wallet » 27 Jun 2018 11:28

Hoop Blah
tmesis
Sutekh So, in essence, rather than the ref making an instant decision rightly or wrongly, he now gets to stop play, think about it and then make a decision rightly or wrongly. Therefore all that’s happened is the game gets stopped unnecessarily while it takes longer to establish the same controversial decisions that we’d all have if this technology wasn’t there..


Yep. It's been a complete waste of time because there have been no cases at all so far where the initial decision was shown to be wrong, and corrected.

Oh no..., that's wrong, isn't it?


There was an article I'd read in the last couple of days where they suggested that VAR got 14 of 15 decisions right. I think that's debatable for starters, but what it certainly didn't do was count the decisions that VAR didn't flag up when you'd think it probably should've done, eg Kane being wrestled to the ground against Tunisia.

I'm no fan of VAR and I think it's already had quite an impact on the games (for some, like Rio Ferdinand, that may be positive in terms of the new found drama), the way officials make decisions and how players have behaved. For me, not a lot of it has been positive BUT that might change over time as things bed down.

One thing that I think is pretty clear though is that there is still a massive debate around what is and isn't a clear and obvious mistake and what a correct decision actual looks like.

The highlighted bit is the key, because that's what its not doing

It is tripping borderline decisions over the line, not countering the howlers we were told it was for.

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tmesis
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Re: VAR

by tmesis » 27 Jun 2018 18:48

Hoop Blah
tmesis
Sutekh So, in essence, rather than the ref making an instant decision rightly or wrongly, he now gets to stop play, think about it and then make a decision rightly or wrongly. Therefore all that’s happened is the game gets stopped unnecessarily while it takes longer to establish the same controversial decisions that we’d all have if this technology wasn’t there..


Yep. It's been a complete waste of time because there have been no cases at all so far where the initial decision was shown to be wrong, and corrected.

Oh no..., that's wrong, isn't it?


There was an article I'd read in the last couple of days where they suggested that VAR got 14 of 15 decisions right. I think that's debatable for starters, but what it certainly didn't do was count the decisions that VAR didn't flag up when you'd think it probably should've done, eg Kane being wrestled to the ground against Tunisia.

So you are against VAR because it's being used too much, and also not enough?

One thing that I think is pretty clear though is that there is still a massive debate around what is and isn't a clear and obvious mistake and what a correct decision actual looks like.

That's entirely true. While I might not always agree with the decisions, I'd still trust a qualified referee over a tv pundit with regards to what the rules of the game are though.

One of the things I like about how they do it in rugby, is that you get the officials explaining decisions (albeit only on tv).

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John Madejski's Wallet
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Re: VAR

by John Madejski's Wallet » 03 Jul 2018 23:46

I know refs don't ever need to justify their decisions, but what about the VAR bods?

Would be nice to know why that was a yellow for Columbia, when it can only be nothing or a red. I'm am genuinely intrigued by the decision, or is there something about it being a serious enough use of the head?


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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 04 Jul 2018 09:50

John Madejski's Wallet I know refs don't ever need to justify their decisions, but what about the VAR bods?

Would be nice to know why that was a yellow for Columbia, when it can only be nothing or a red. I'm am genuinely intrigued by the decision, or is there something about it being a serious enough use of the head?


I think, on the commentary, that they suggested it might've been to do with a directive that anything on the chest is a yellow card and the face is red. It could be that they gave the benefit of the doubt and judged it to be on the chest.

It was also borderline violent conduct as it's one of those petulant actions that is never really violent as it's just going to tickle a bit.

I still think it should've been a red though.

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Re: VAR

by John Madejski's Wallet » 04 Jul 2018 11:45

Since when is anything on the chest a yellow? Zenedine Zidane would be interested to know :lol:

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Re: VAR

by paultheroyal » 04 Jul 2018 14:33

Thank god the ref was Mr Even it up - Henderson could / should of easily been off as well.

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Re: VAR

by Victor Meldrew » 04 Jul 2018 19:57

Hoop Blah
tmesis
Sutekh So, in essence, rather than the ref making an instant decision rightly or wrongly, he now gets to stop play, think about it and then make a decision rightly or wrongly. Therefore all that’s happened is the game gets stopped unnecessarily while it takes longer to establish the same controversial decisions that we’d all have if this technology wasn’t there..


Yep. It's been a complete waste of time because there have been no cases at all so far where the initial decision was shown to be wrong, and corrected.

Oh no..., that's wrong, isn't it?


There was an article I'd read in the last couple of days where they suggested that VAR got 14 of 15 decisions right. I think that's debatable for starters, but what it certainly didn't do was count the decisions that VAR didn't flag up when you'd think it probably should've done, eg Kane being wrestled to the ground against Tunisia.

I'm no fan of VAR and I think it's already had quite an impact on the games (for some, like Rio Ferdinand, that may be positive in terms of the new found drama), the way officials make decisions and how players have behaved. For me, not a lot of it has been positive BUT that might change over time as things bed down.

One thing that I think is pretty clear though is that there is still a massive debate around what is and isn't a clear and obvious mistake and what a correct decision actual looks like.


You mention yet another game where Kane was wrestled to the ground.
I don't recall many other dangerous strikers being wrestled to the ground so often in this World Cup.
Maybe there is something in my suspicion stated elsewhere that Kane has mastered the art of getting himself wrestled to the ground-we won't know as our TV people obviously won't want to look at that.

As for VAR, less of a hindrance than first thought to be.


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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 04 Jul 2018 20:56

I think it’s largely the way we set up and make our runs that scares opposition defences into making rash tackles. We may have developed a canny knack of initiating a tussle whereby we don’t cross the line though.

It’s not just Kane that’s been wrestled/fouled. Maguire, Loftus-Cheek and Stones have all been grabbed, pulled or wrestled at various times and possibly should’ve had penalties.

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 05 Jul 2018 08:31

John Madejski's Wallet Since when is anything on the chest a yellow? Zenedine Zidane would be interested to know :lol:


Violent is violent and so a red card. The chest vs face thing was more about the petulant laying of hands on an opponent (I think!).

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Re: VAR

by Sebastian the Red » 05 Jul 2018 11:05

Hoop Blah I think it’s largely the way we set up and make our runs that scares opposition defences into making rash tackles. We may have developed a canny knack of initiating a tussle whereby we don’t cross the line though.

It’s not just Kane that’s been wrestled/fouled. Maguire, Loftus-Cheek and Stones have all been grabbed, pulled or wrestled at various times and possibly should’ve had penalties.


Quite. It is absolutely possible to force opponents into fouls and infringements, without diving or simulating it - top class strikers do it all the time in open play with sudden changes of pace and direction, etc. Kane is a very, very canny operator, and has has become a master at drawing fouls and infringements - completely legally, and without cheating himself - at set pieces. The best analogy I can come up with is the activity of world class props in rugby union - they moderate their performance and approach depending on their opponent's predilections in order to force them into committing infringements. They scrum completely legally, but the little tricks they have picked up force their opponents into messing up and giving away penalties. It's a mature, intelligent approach.

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Re: VAR

by TheSpread » 05 Jul 2018 13:05

paultheroyal Thank god the ref was Mr Even it up - Henderson could / should of easily been off as well.


I agree. It wasn't as bad as the Colombian's head butt, but it was a butt all the same.


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Re: VAR

by RoyalinBracknell » 06 Jul 2018 23:15

There was a Referee media briefing last week in which some of the audio of conversations between VARs and referees was released - it's from approximately 20.00 in this video if anyone is interested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYapOnBsSVY

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Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 07 Jul 2018 10:20

paultheroyal Thank god the ref was Mr Even it up - Henderson could / should of easily been off as well.

Clearly I'm biased, but the two incidents were entirely different in my opinion.

Colombian player deliberately headbutts Henderson in the chest - not that bad not really worthy of a red, but it is pushing into the realms of violent conduct. Then there's clear effort to bring his head back up into Henderson's jaw and face. It's clearly violent, there's clearly intent to hurt. Henderson emphasises the contact that is likely to have hurt at least a bit and caught him by surprise, but then every footballer does this, because if you don't react and go down, referees almost never do anything.

There's a Colombian pushing his head against the back of Henderson's head, Henderson pushes back and then moves forward again to break contact. Clearly no intent to hurt, it's not dangerous, it's not violent, there's provocation.

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Re: VAR

by John Madejski's Wallet » 05 Jun 2019 23:27

So err the VAR decision in the Portugal - Switzerland match was 'interesting' :lol:


A decision that would never have happened had the ref nit been able to watch it back on tele

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 06 Jun 2019 09:02

John Madejski's Wallet So err the VAR decision in the Portugal - Switzerland match was 'interesting' :lol:

A decision that would never have happened had the ref nit been able to watch it back on tele


I only saw 1 or 2 replays but it looked a very soft penalty.

The way events unfolded puts VAR in a bit of bad light though (IMO), even if the right result was eventually reached. I really don't like the way a game can be pulled back so far and decisions changed as it just impacts on the flow of the game.

What would happen if someone committed a professional foul or two players got into a scrap over something during a phase of play that then became redundant? Would they still face punishment or does it all get rolled back and ignored after the VAR review?

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 06 Jun 2019 11:02

In rugby, yes. Play continues, until a break, and the TMO will instruct the referee that he may want to check something. Everything that happens in that time is 'live' up until the point that it isn't.

Fans need to be a bit less precious about their 'beautiful game'. VAR got it right last night. That's better than the Swiss being denied a clear penalty because 'flow'.

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 06 Jun 2019 11:52

Sanguine In rugby, yes. Play continues, until a break, and the TMO will instruct the referee that he may want to check something. Everything that happens in that time is 'live' up until the point that it isn't.

Fans need to be a bit less precious about their 'beautiful game'. VAR got it right last night. That's better than the Swiss being denied a clear penalty because 'flow'.


The only bit of that I'd question is the use of the word 'clear'.

Not sure I'd describe that as anything other than 'soft' - might even use 'extremely'

No problem with it being given, but this is a taste of what's to come. Soft penalties will be the order of the day, although it may make some of the defenders learn how to defend within the laws rather than their previous tactics.

Ironically, Van Dyke is a very good example of someone who rarely seems to resort to the pulling, tugging, cuddling stuff. Maybe other defenders can learn a thing or two from him.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 06 Jun 2019 12:20

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Sanguine In rugby, yes. Play continues, until a break, and the TMO will instruct the referee that he may want to check something. Everything that happens in that time is 'live' up until the point that it isn't.

Fans need to be a bit less precious about their 'beautiful game'. VAR got it right last night. That's better than the Swiss being denied a clear penalty because 'flow'.


The only bit of that I'd question is the use of the word 'clear'.

Not sure I'd describe that as anything other than 'soft' - might even use 'extremely'

No problem with it being given, but this is a taste of what's to come. Soft penalties will be the order of the day, although it may make some of the defenders learn how to defend within the laws rather than their previous tactics.

Ironically, Van Dyke is a very good example of someone who rarely seems to resort to the pulling, tugging, cuddling stuff. Maybe other defenders can learn a thing or two from him.


Fair enough - I think 'soft penalty' is a term that is starting to get overused. A foul is a foul, whether it's a clip or a player is completely taken out. It is referees' difficulty in giving 'soft' fouls as penalties that as led to attackers diving around - I'm hoping VAR resolves both next season.

The biggest improvement on VAR has to be around process - I still think replays should be shown on screens, so it is clear on what the referee is basing his decision.

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