Points Deduction AGAIN

[Theroyalbox]

Well be interesting to see what the official news is, but seems we have been shafted really! Just before our toughest run of the season too!!

[Snowflake Royal]

Oh Moore’s back as well just to cheer Ian up

Like he'll play.

The points deduction causing waste of space.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

Because we were historically pissing money up the wall.

For two seasons straight, only about 2 years ago our wage bill was 200% of income. Excluding everything else that's a two year loss of about £40m on its own.

At the same time we were throwing around multi million transfer fees.

Selling off every asset we owned so we could rent it back from the owner.

Yeah I know I've included the likes of wages and transfer fees in that, but even still, if you go off a £40m~ wage bill each season and £25m~ over that 3 year period (for arguments sake), that works out at £145m. Now if our revenue sits at around £16m for each season (£48m over 3 years) and take that off this figure, that leaves us with £97m. £138m minus that £97m still leaves us with £41m of "other operating costs" over that 3 year period that we can't account for, assuming the training/academy facilities aren't counted towards this.

Selling off every asset to rent it back from the owner would only increase our income, as it did when we sold the stadium to our owners. But that's what I mean, where are we spending the other £13.5m~ each season based on those 3 years where we eventually broke the rules?

There's a good chance that there's mixed messaging in the reporting that conflates or references interchamgeably both overall loss (including infrastructure expenditure and academy maintenance) and FFP accountable loss.

We're only ever going to have a limited idea what is being spent where. But the accounts have been clwar for a long time that we were making vast losses through totally irresponsible spending, in clear breach of FFP.

Yeah I don't disagree, we've clearly breached these rules previously, rightly punished as of now with a points deduction and business plan and whatever happens now will happen.

What concerns me is, going forward, if it is true that we are still losing some £13.5m each season (rough estimate), where is that actually coming from? As it's still an operational cost of the business that allegedly has nothing to do with players, staff, training facilities and academy costs (again, if that's true). I just can't get my head around that and that will still likely exist to some extent, no matter how much we reduce our wage bill, staff costs, transfer fees etc.

[Coppells Lost Coat]

Oh Moore’s back as well just to cheer Ian up

Like he'll play.

The points deduction causing waste of space.

We'll hear news of another injury set back before we hear clarification on wtf is going on with the EFL

[morganb]

So, we got caught breaching FFP, were docked 6 points and set a business plan to adhere to which if we didn't meet then we were to be docked another 6 points.

We are now being docked 6 points for something that happened prior to the business plan being set (a period we have already been punished for), a time which should have been covered by us/EFL agreeing to the plan and being a reset point.

Is the 6 points we are being docked the penalty for not meeting the business plan, or a separate 6 points covering a historical period we've already been penalised for and therefore the business plan 6 points could still be docked at a later date?

Do we think something we had hidden a couple of years ago has now come to light, or are the EFL being pressured by other clubs to apply another punishment as we were let off too lightly, or is it really a breach of the business plan influenced by something that pre-dates it?

[Hound]

Dunno, it’s a mess whatever

[Hound]

Yeah I know I've included the likes of wages and transfer fees in that, but even still, if you go off a £40m~ wage bill each season and £25m~ over that 3 year period (for arguments sake), that works out at £145m. Now if our revenue sits at around £16m for each season (£48m over 3 years) and take that off this figure, that leaves us with £97m. £138m minus that £97m still leaves us with £41m of "other operating costs" over that 3 year period that we can't account for, assuming the training/academy facilities aren't counted towards this.

Selling off every asset to rent it back from the owner would only increase our income, as it did when we sold the stadium to our owners. But that's what I mean, where are we spending the other £13.5m~ each season based on those 3 years where we eventually broke the rules?

There's a good chance that there's mixed messaging in the reporting that conflates or references interchamgeably both overall loss (including infrastructure expenditure and academy maintenance) and FFP accountable loss.

We're only ever going to have a limited idea what is being spent where. But the accounts have been clwar for a long time that we were making vast losses through totally irresponsible spending, in clear breach of FFP.

Yeah I don't disagree, we've clearly breached these rules previously, rightly punished as of now with a points deduction and business plan and whatever happens now will happen.

What concerns me is, going forward, if it is true that we are still losing some £13.5m each season (rough estimate), where is that actually coming from? As it's still an operational cost of the business that allegedly has nothing to do with players, staff, training facilities and academy costs (again, if that's true). I just can't get my head around that and that will still likely exist to some extent, no matter how much we reduce our wage bill, staff costs, transfer fees etc.

I think you’re best waiting to see the accounts before guessing at running costs. And I think that losing 13m this season is prob way out personally

[Coppells Lost Coat]

So, we got caught breaching FFP, were docked 6 points and set a business plan to adhere to which if we didn't meet then we were to be docked another 6 points.

We are now being docked 6 points for something that happened prior to the business plan being set (a period we have already been punished for), a time which should have been covered by us/EFL agreeing to the plan and being a reset point.

Is the 6 points we are being docked the penalty for not meeting the business plan, or a separate 6 points covering a historical period we've already been penalised for and therefore the business plan 6 points could still be docked at a later date?

Do we think something we had hidden a couple of years ago has now come to light, or are the EFL being pressured by other clubs to apply another punishment as we were let off too lightly, or is it really a breach of the business plan influenced by something that pre-dates it?

If its historical and revisiting the original punishment it is literally opening the door for Peterborough to come into the fold and start demanding compensation.
EFL are losing the plot and any credibility here

[YorkshireRoyal99]

There's a good chance that there's mixed messaging in the reporting that conflates or references interchamgeably both overall loss (including infrastructure expenditure and academy maintenance) and FFP accountable loss.

We're only ever going to have a limited idea what is being spent where. But the accounts have been clwar for a long time that we were making vast losses through totally irresponsible spending, in clear breach of FFP.

Yeah I don't disagree, we've clearly breached these rules previously, rightly punished as of now with a points deduction and business plan and whatever happens now will happen.

What concerns me is, going forward, if it is true that we are still losing some £13.5m each season (rough estimate), where is that actually coming from? As it's still an operational cost of the business that allegedly has nothing to do with players, staff, training facilities and academy costs (again, if that's true). I just can't get my head around that and that will still likely exist to some extent, no matter how much we reduce our wage bill, staff costs, transfer fees etc.

I think you’re best waiting to see the accounts before guessing at running costs. And I think that losing 13m this season is prob way out personally

Yeah that's just a figure that's worked out based on the 3/4 years where we wracked up losses of nearly £140m, taking out the wages and transfer fees (and possibly academy/training costs) it left us with around £13.5m of "other operational costs" that we couldn't account for. I'd be hoping that we've managed to reduce that figure by now.

[Sutekh]

So, we got caught breaching FFP, were docked 6 points and set a business plan to adhere to which if we didn't meet then we were to be docked another 6 points.

We are now being docked 6 points for something that happened prior to the business plan being set (a period we have already been punished for), a time which should have been covered by us/EFL agreeing to the plan and being a reset point.

Is the 6 points we are being docked the penalty for not meeting the business plan, or a separate 6 points covering a historical period we've already been penalised for and therefore the business plan 6 points could still be docked at a later date?

Do we think something we had hidden a couple of years ago has now come to light, or are the EFL being pressured by other clubs to apply another punishment as we were let off too lightly, or is it really a breach of the business plan influenced by something that pre-dates it?

Yeah, I don’t get that at all it’s like being punished again for something we’ve already been punished for. Surely it must have been known last time and if it wasn’t then surely that’s just tough and FL need to tighten the investigative procedures (so if anything should be thanking Reading and perhaps giving the club back the 6 points taken last season putting the club 9th on 50 points - well it would seem to make the same amount of sense).

[Chairman Mao]

Yeah I know I've included the likes of wages and transfer fees in that, but even still, if you go off a £40m~ wage bill each season and £25m~ over that 3 year period (for arguments sake), that works out at £145m. Now if our revenue sits at around £16m for each season (£48m over 3 years) and take that off this figure, that leaves us with £97m. £138m minus that £97m still leaves us with £41m of "other operating costs" over that 3 year period that we can't account for, assuming the training/academy facilities aren't counted towards this.

Selling off every asset to rent it back from the owner would only increase our income, as it did when we sold the stadium to our owners. But that's what I mean, where are we spending the other £13.5m~ each season based on those 3 years where we eventually broke the rules?

There's a good chance that there's mixed messaging in the reporting that conflates or references interchamgeably both overall loss (including infrastructure expenditure and academy maintenance) and FFP accountable loss.

We're only ever going to have a limited idea what is being spent where. But the accounts have been clwar for a long time that we were making vast losses through totally irresponsible spending, in clear breach of FFP.

Yeah I don't disagree, we've clearly breached these rules previously, rightly punished as of now with a points deduction and business plan and whatever happens now will happen.

What concerns me is, going forward, if it is true that we are still losing some £13.5m each season (rough estimate), where is that actually coming from? As it's still an operational cost of the business that allegedly has nothing to do with players, staff, training facilities and academy costs (again, if that's true). I just can't get my head around that and that will still likely exist to some extent, no matter how much we reduce our wage bill, staff costs, transfer fees etc.

considering we were losing about 5 million a year under madejski, and that was oxf*rd years ago, with a much smaller wage bill, an entire squad that cost under 5 million, and bigger crowds on a regular basis, im actually surprised the current yearly losses are only 13.5M

[Hendo]

https://twitter.com/TimDellor/status/16 ... 1457395715

It’s a bit like a court handing down a year suspended sentence to a crook, and then calling the crook back into court six months later and even though they haven’t put a foot wrong sending them to prison for the original offence!

I don't like him, but feels like Tim has hit the nail on the head here a bit.

[Elm Park Kid]

It's pointless getting upset with the EFL when we haven't seen their justifications yet. Let's wait for that before we jump to a mob mentality.

I wonder whether PInce was given the go-ahead to say everything he did. Would seem a bit of an odd media strategy to release a statement and then have the manager come out and say "yeah, we actually already know we're in trouble".

I know that Bowen is confident that the deduction is taking place next week.

[Snowflake Royal]

So, we got caught breaching FFP, were docked 6 points and set a business plan to adhere to which if we didn't meet then we were to be docked another 6 points.

We are now being docked 6 points for something that happened prior to the business plan being set (a period we have already been punished for), a time which should have been covered by us/EFL agreeing to the plan and being a reset point.

Is the 6 points we are being docked the penalty for not meeting the business plan, or a separate 6 points covering a historical period we've already been penalised for and therefore the business plan 6 points could still be docked at a later date?

Do we think something we had hidden a couple of years ago has now come to light, or are the EFL being pressured by other clubs to apply another punishment as we were let off too lightly, or is it really a breach of the business plan influenced by something that pre-dates it?

We were docked 6 points with 6 suspended for breaches relating to the previous accounting period for FFP, for not having got our house in order despite several embargos.

We then had to comply with restrictions last season, and a business plan this season, to keep our spending to a reasonable amount and prevent further breaches.

We appear to have failed to meet all the requirements for last season now the full accounts are published, and will have the suspended points deducted.

Although this is still mostly speculation on the actual detail at this stage because nothing has been formally announced. It does seems clear (despite the naysayers yesterday) that we have actually breached something and will probably be penalised as a result.

[kwik-silva]

So, we got caught breaching FFP, were docked 6 points and set a business plan to adhere to which if we didn't meet then we were to be docked another 6 points.

We are now being docked 6 points for something that happened prior to the business plan being set (a period we have already been punished for), a time which should have been covered by us/EFL agreeing to the plan and being a reset point.

Is the 6 points we are being docked the penalty for not meeting the business plan, or a separate 6 points covering a historical period we've already been penalised for and therefore the business plan 6 points could still be docked at a later date?

Do we think something we had hidden a couple of years ago has now come to light, or are the EFL being pressured by other clubs to apply another punishment as we were let off too lightly, or is it really a breach of the business plan influenced by something that pre-dates it?

We've already been punished for something that occurred within the period prior to the business plan, we haven't been penalised for everything before it happened. It sounds like it's either last season or before, we have sold the stadium (though that was considered for a reasonable fee afaik), and loaned Sone Aluko to Beijing Renhe for £3m. It could be that there's other things that the EFL took a dim view on, it could be that we overspent last year while under the business plan, could be all manner of things. I guess we'll find out eventually!

[kwik-silva]

https://twitter.com/TimDellor/status/16 ... 1457395715

It’s a bit like a court handing down a year suspended sentence to a crook, and then calling the crook back into court six months later and even though they haven’t put a foot wrong sending them to prison for the original offence!

I don't like him, but feels like Tim has hit the nail on the head here a bit.

Nah, it's like a crook getting a suspended sentence, then finding out they committed crimes you were unaware of beforehand.

[Elm Park Kid]

https://twitter.com/TimDellor/status/16 ... 1457395715

It’s a bit like a court handing down a year suspended sentence to a crook, and then calling the crook back into court six months later and even though they haven’t put a foot wrong sending them to prison for the original offence!

I don't like him, but feels like Tim has hit the nail on the head here a bit.

It's pretty normal to sentence someone for a crime and then retry/sentence them in the future if evidence comes up that they committed more crimes. Maybe one of the obligations of the club was to admit all it's wrong-doings there and then and accept that if anything else was found that they would face additional punishment.

[paultheroyal]

It will be the Reading way that we win on Saturday, 2 fingers up and 3 points back!!

[Snowflake Royal]

https://twitter.com/TimDellor/status/16 ... 1457395715

It’s a bit like a court handing down a year suspended sentence to a crook, and then calling the crook back into court six months later and even though they haven’t put a foot wrong sending them to prison for the original offence!

I don't like him, but feels like Tim has hit the nail on the head here a bit.

Nah, it's like a crook getting a suspended sentence, then finding out they committed crimes you were unaware of beforehand.

Yeah.

Or not even crimes. The suspended sentence may have required the crook not to associate with a particular person. If they do, the suspended sentence is applied. They've not committed a new crime, their original full penalty has been applied because they haven't done enough to comply with requirements intended to cut the risk of reoffending in future.

Tim talking bollox as usual.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

It just leaves a bit of a sour taste in the mouth really. You'd have thought that they would have explored this previously, put this to bed and then we agreed our business plan, knowing that any breach of that would result in an automatic 6 point deduction then.

If this isn't a breach of our business plan and it is something that goes back before the business plan was agreed, does that mean that we could still face another 6 point deduction if we are found to have breached anything in those terms that we agreed to as well?

It all just screams to me as an absolute shitshow, from both the club and the EFL now to be honest.