Racism in football (John Terry spin-off)

[No Fixed Abode]

Keith Alexander.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

I think part of the problem stems from the fact we are yet to see a BME manager be successful at the highest level in English football. I realise that is partly rel8d to the numbers, but a lot of the BME managers so far haven't proved to be a great success despite being given a number of bites at the cherry - Paul Ince is a particular example of this. Chris Powell seems to be doing a decent job, certainly he did at Charlton, and it is too early to judge in his tenure at 'Uddersfield. I think there's been a list of the BME managers higher up the thread, but I'm struggling to think of names beyond:

Paul Ince - failed at Blackburn and Blackpool
Terry Connor - given a tough task which always seemed doomed to fail at Wolves, was always more of a coach, not sure we can really judge him on that
Keith Curle - has he managed in the league yet? Or just Mansfield?
Chris Powell - good spell at Charlton, now at 'Uddersfield.
Chris Hughton - did well at Newcastle before being removed after promotion.

It's not exactly a long list is it?

Bet I could list 5 shit white managers.

You could list 5 excellent ones too

[Extended-Phenotype]

Not particularly bright, are you m8?

[No Fixed Abode]

Ruud Gullit

[Extended-Phenotype]

Michael Appleton

[Ouroboros]

Michelle Branch

[floyd__streete]

Bet I could list 5 shit white managers.

I can list 5 sh*t male Prime Ministers of the UK if you like, but only 1 sh*t female Prime Minister of the UK.

Have you ever heard of the phrase 'sample size'?

[Hendo]

Would it be fair to consider that now there are more black players in the game, in say 15 years time, there will be more black managers.

Whereas 15 years ago there may have been less black players in the game, so therefore less black managers now.

[Sanguine]

Would it be fair to consider that now there are more black players in the game, in say 15 years time, there will be more black managers.

Whereas 15 years ago there may have been less black players in the game, so therefore less black managers now.

Have to consider the origin of those players - there are no doubt more black players in English leagues now, but are there more British black players in English leagues? Relevant to the discussion I'd say as imho the likes of Toure and Adebayor are infinitely less likely to end up managing in England than British black players.

[Hendo]

Fair point, one which I did not consider.

A further point to consider; in relation with the high amount of non-British players in the British leagues, will the demand for more multi-language speaking managers increase and if so, the pool of multi-language speaking potential managers playing the game now is much higher than it was 15 years ago.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Bet I could list 5 shit white managers.

I can list 5 sh*t male Prime Ministers of the UK if you like, but only 1 sh*t female Prime Minister of the UK.

And what are you inferring is the conclusion of your sample? Put the pieces together m8, it's not difficult to see what I was getting at.

[No Fixed Abode]

There are so many foreign managers in this Country, especially managing at the top level. Racist indeed.

[comeonyouroyals]

what are the actual numbers? Probability of getting a job (av number of applicants), necessary experience to get a job (although not convinced that paying your dues will necessarily make you a better manager) etc etc.

Facts and figures
-The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
-There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England and 14 of those are black coaches
-Around 25% of players in the professional game are non-white
-There were five black managers in English professional football last season but, of Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Paul Ince, Chris Kiwomya and Edgar Davids, only Powell now has a job

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29333826


Done a bit of digging to find out who the 14 black UEFA pro license holders are, and when they qualified:

Noel Blake 2002
Chris Hughton 2002
Hope Powell 2003 (Female, unsure if counted as one of 14)
Terry Connor 2005
Chris Ramsey 2006
Iffy Onoura 2007
Keith Alexander 2007 (Deceased, not counted as one of 14 presumably)
Leroy Rosenior 2007
Nas Bashir 2008 (Not black obviously, but BME)
Darren Moore (Took course in 2011, assuming he completed)
Les Ferdinand (2014?)
Chris Powell 2014
Paul Ince 2014

Not sure who the other couple are but can't find any reference to Chris Kiwomya having a Pro License. Or Carlisle's Keith Curle.

First off, Chris Hughton looks set to become the next Fulham manager if reports are to be believed.

Ferdinand and Ramsey have recently departed Tottenham after long periods as coaches. Noel Blake has just parted ways with England U19 after 5 years. Terry Connor has largely been Mick McCarthy's no. 2 for a number of years. Paul Ince looked decent at MK Dons, but I think last seasons antics at Blackpool might have severely damaged his career.

All of the above 5 (Ferdinand, Ramsey, Blake, Connor and Ince) would be capable and currently qualified for at least management in League 1 or 2 at the least I would imagine. But we simply do not know whether they have applied for such jobs. Perhaps Connor is happy being Mick's no. 2 for now. Perhaps Ramsey and Ferdinand are looking for another backroom role. If a number of these 5 came out and said they'd applied to x number of managerial positions and got nowhere I would say then we would know for sure there is a problem". But as it stands I do not agree with the logic of 'few black managers' automatically = racism.

Obviously, one might argue racism prevents black players from becoming trained coaches, but that was not Gordon Taylor's claim, and Roberts gripe is in relation to managers.

I think you have a fair point here, out of the 14 at least 7 were in work last season and I bet that works out as a better % when taking into account the amount of qualified people than white managers.

I think the problem is the lack of qualified BME candidates, whether that is down to racism, lack of inspiration from lack of big name bme managers or what I'm not sure, but this is whats got to change in my eyes.

[YateleyRoyal]

There are so many foreign managers in this Country, especially managing at the top level. Racist indeed.

Racism and Xenophobia aint the same thing, Kesmondo.

[No Fixed Abode]

There are so many foreign managers in this Country, especially managing at the top level. Racist indeed.

Racism and Xenophobia aint the same thing, Kesmondo.

I never said it was.

[floyd__streete]

There are so many foreign managers in this Country, especially managing at the top level. Racist indeed.

Racism only applies to skin colour, HTH. Refer to Extended Phenotype and Jason Roberts if more clarification is required

[floyd__streete]

A quick, crude count of managers in the top two divisions tells me that 16 of the 44 jobs are taken by BME managers/coaches. That is 36.36% of the available jobs. How does that compare to the headcount in the UK, are around 1 in 3 citizens of the UK from BME background I genuinely don't know, because I don't spend my time wringing my hands and apologising over such inconsequential things.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Yeah I think we cleared "you don't give a shit" up a few months back in the thread, Floydo. We'll write it down to save you having to pop by every day and remind us with another tweed-trousered, aggressive-dog-owner post, furiously trying to vilify in reality the inoffensive act of concern.

[Winston Smith]

what are the actual numbers? Probability of getting a job (av number of applicants), necessary experience to get a job (although not convinced that paying your dues will necessarily make you a better manager) etc etc.

Facts and figures
-The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
-There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England and 14 of those are black coaches
-Around 25% of players in the professional game are non-white
-There were five black managers in English professional football last season but, of Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Paul Ince, Chris Kiwomya and Edgar Davids, only Powell now has a job

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29333826


Done a bit of digging to find out who the 14 black UEFA pro license holders are, and when they qualified:

Noel Blake 2002
Chris Hughton 2002
Hope Powell 2003 (Female, unsure if counted as one of 14)
Terry Connor 2005
Chris Ramsey 2006
Iffy Onoura 2007
Keith Alexander 2007 (Deceased, not counted as one of 14 presumably)
Leroy Rosenior 2007
Nas Bashir 2008 (Not black obviously, but BME)
Darren Moore (Took course in 2011, assuming he completed)
Les Ferdinand (2014?)
Chris Powell 2014
Paul Ince 2014

Not sure who the other couple are but can't find any reference to Chris Kiwomya having a Pro License. Or Carlisle's Keith Curle.

First off, Chris Hughton looks set to become the next Fulham manager if reports are to be believed.

Ferdinand and Ramsey have recently departed Tottenham after long periods as coaches. Noel Blake has just parted ways with England U19 after 5 years. Terry Connor has largely been Mick McCarthy's no. 2 for a number of years. Paul Ince looked decent at MK Dons, but I think last seasons antics at Blackpool might have severely damaged his career.

All of the above 5 (Ferdinand, Ramsey, Blake, Connor and Ince) would be capable and currently qualified for at least management in League 1 or 2 at the least I would imagine. But we simply do not know whether they have applied for such jobs. Perhaps Connor is happy being Mick's no. 2 for now. Perhaps Ramsey and Ferdinand are looking for another backroom role. If a number of these 5 came out and said they'd applied to x number of managerial positions and got nowhere I would say then we would know for sure there is a problem". But as it stands I do not agree with the logic of 'few black managers' automatically = racism.

Obviously, one might argue racism prevents black players from becoming trained coaches, but that was not Gordon Taylor's claim, and Roberts gripe is in relation to managers.

not getting all Kes on you but if you are claiming Hughton as black and having a UEFA pro license then I am claiming Ryan Giggs too. He got his license earlier this year

[No Fixed Abode]

Phil Brown.